Oblits vs Combi-Predator

[Night Lord Dred]

I think you give a little too much credit to how easily they can be blown up. I would definitely say that a unit must go out of its way to kill it. Even if there was a Fire Dragon squad sent out to kill it, thats like 300 points (WS and the infantry) sent out to destroy 130. Then, as you said, they get destroyed the next turn. As chaos, were on the other side of the board where we want to be with less resistance. Not a bad trade off.

 

I just dont see how preds are easier to kill than oblits. Lascannons are hardly a threat when its 3+, 5+, 5+ to kill a pred, and just 3+, 2+, then 5+ invul save on oblit. Melta guns wreck both just as bad, except a multi melta/melta can be 24/12 inches away on oblits as opposed to 12/6 inches on preds.

 

We could run the numbers but I'm almost certain that against deepstriking Melta troops/Dreads, the Predator will fare less well. Armor is just much weaker against Melta weapons then bodies. I mentioned it early on that 3 Termicides is basically a dead Predator with any luck whereas its probably going to kill 1 of 2 Oblits. Next turn that Oblits will be dead, but its just more likely to survive the close range Melta spam.

 

Against LasCannons/Missiles, I think their about the same really. You're trading AV13 and maybe a 4+ cover save for 2+/4+ cover save. I call it even, so in my book sniping at max range, both of the units will be equally durable.

 

 

Oddly enough, I'm personally leaning towards AutoCannon Havocks as my long range support and Meltagun spamming for the big stuff.

 

I would definitely say that points wise they would be about equal. Remember its a 130 point tank and 3x 75 point oblits for 225. It depends on the unit ofcourse, but the more meltas that come in, the more even it is (actually in the preds favour points wise as theres less to lose) as both squads are going to get completely annihilated.

 

Against lascannons, oblits get killed far easier. No question about it. Again, its 3+, 5+, 5+ against a pred, or 67%, 33%, 33%, and then 50% if in cover (which really isnt as hard as some people on here are making it out to be). Oblits are 67%, 83%, 67% (or 50% if in cover). Not even close.

 

Theres a 7% chance a lascannon will destroy a pred's front armour, 3.5% if it has cover.

 

Theres a 37% chance a lascannon will kill an oblit, and 28% if it has cover.

 

Missle Launchers are, imo, useless. They dont excel at anything and are far less reliable. But we'll run the numbers (as even for myself these numbers are kind of surprising and good to know).

 

Missle Launcher vs Pred: 3+, 6+, 5+ | 67%, 16%, 33%

 

Theres a 3.5% chance a missle will destroy a pred. 1.75% if in cover.

 

Missle Launcher vs Oblit: 3+, 2+, 1 | 67%, 83%, 16%

 

Theres a 9% chance a missle will (outright) kill an oblit. Cover does not factor in.

 

Autocannons would just be the same vs. Oblits aside from IKing them, and theyd only glance a pred.

 

 

 

Basically the pred will survive long range fire better than an oblit can. Meltas favour oblits over preds very slightly. Plasma fire of any kind has Oblits at the disadvantage by far.

 

Take it as you will, but after running these numbers I like my preds even more haha.

[minigun762]

I would definitely say that points wise they would be about equal. Remember its a 130 point tank and 3x 75 point oblits for 225.

 

I'm not sure anyone is comparing 3 Oblits to 1 Predator. I think its 2 to 1 as the point costs are much more appropriate then (150 vs 130).

 

Theres a 7% chance a lascannon will destroy a pred's front armour, 3.5% if it has cover.

I know what Jeske has been saying is not the chance of it being destroyed, but it being stunned because the two are the same when it comes to the Predator's ability to shoot.

 

In that case its 0.667 x 0.5 = 33.3% chance to be atleast stunned.

 

Now you can fix this by going with D. Possession, but then you lose your point savings and you're at BS3.

[Night Lord Dred]

Thats true, but stunned is still better than destroyed, and its essentially 1 (or more) wasted units shooting on his side for one on mine. Fair trade off, since the pred will still be in the game. If you get stunned, you use smoke and make it really hard for your opponent to do anything to you.

 

As for 2 oblits, I would say only 3 meltas in a termicide squad have a decent chance of taking them both down then. It's about 1.15 kills. And that is really the one time oblits > predsm and its still not that great.

[the jeske]

Thats true, but stunned is still better than destroyed, and its essentially 1 (or more) wasted units shooting on his side for one on mine.

if my unit[the pred] is doing nothing . it doesnt counter , it doesnt shot etc then the unit that made it do nothing did not wast shoting. further more . If the pred is the only anti tank meta or a substantial part of it , then the unit is doing its job just right . In the 4th a lot of top tier chaos armies were runing havocks with auto canons [not just IW] . they were an anti eldar tau meta [+helped against demon bombs and horde armies and where good at killing minimax, but thats another story] . they couldnt kill falcons[nothing could] , but they were stuning them . less bright lance , less shrieker canons ment chaos stuff lived longer [and it wasnt so easy to overhelm squads with harlis] . those units didnt kill a lot of stuff against eldar , but were good.

 

 

, I would say only 3 meltas in a termicide squad have a decent chance of taking them both down then

3 shots and then 2 wounds . then either +5 inv or cover and its not like its hard to get cover for them , they arent bigger then terminators. to be sure they all die you need either twin linked melta guns [5 man sternguard with vulkan] or 4-5 normal melta guns /plasma [and even then they can go to the ground in cover and have a slim chance of surviving ].

 

I would definitely say that points wise they would be about equal. Remember its a 130 point tank and 3x 75 point oblits for 225.

why are you compering a pred to 3 oblits all the time? its not a set up used in normal builds .

Against lascannons, oblits get killed far easier. No question about it. Again, its 3+, 5+, 5+ against a pred, or 67%, 33%, 33%, and then 50% if in cover (which really isnt as hard as some people on here are making it out to be). Oblits are 67%, 83%, 67% (or 50% if in cover). Not even close.

yes but I can totally shield an oblit squad with a rhino [so its 0 dmg as lascanons on everything save LR and dreads are static], I cant do the same for preds as at least the turret is going to be higher then rhino hull. Also this may be a little of topic , but whats with the focus on lascanons? I mean its not like they are anti tank weapons in 5th. dreads dont use them , tacs dont use them [no mini max + high cost +cover every where + wound alloctation would force them to use 10 man squads], chaos doesnt use them . only thing that does use lascanons is sometimes guard [because they are the only army that can spam 10+ and not die to horde armies] and loyalist LR rush [because of machine spirit].

 

From all those units I can shield oblits with rhino walls , the same preds will get shot at and it doesnt matter then if they get cover +4 . having 50% chance that my anti tank does nothing is bad.

[minigun762]

yes but I can totally shield an oblit squad with a rhino [so its 0 dmg as lascanons on everything save LR and dreads are static], I cant do the same for preds as at least the turret is going to be higher then rhino hull. Also this may be a little of topic , but whats with the focus on lascanons? I mean its not like they are anti tank weapons in 5th. dreads dont use them , tacs dont use them [no mini max + high cost +cover every where + wound alloctation would force them to use 10 man squads], chaos doesnt use them . only thing that does use lascanons is sometimes guard [because they are the only army that can spam 10+ and not die to horde armies] and loyalist LR rush [because of machine spirit].

 

From all those units I can shield oblits with rhino walls , the same preds will get shot at and it doesnt matter then if they get cover +4 . having 50% chance that my anti tank does nothing is bad.

 

I've thought about the same idea with Havocks actually. Take a medium sized squad (6-7) of AutoCannon Havocks and give the squad their own Rhino. Use it to block LOS from one side or hinder enemy charges. Hell even make it a pain for units to deepstrike near them.

You could even take it one step further and give the Rhino a Havoc Launcher so it can add some extra firepower down range.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Havocs with a rhino with a havoc launcher? *head explodes*

[incinerator950]

Havoc launcher does more damage then the havoc's rocket lawnchairs right?

[chillin]

Havoc launcher does more damage then the havoc's rocket lawnchairs right?

 

Yes but the rocket launcher lawnchairs only have 1 beer holder, where as the reg lawnchairs have beer holders on both sides so it's a hard choice.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Chaosale?

[Muskie]

They all had about one moment of glory but mostly in the World Wide War tournament it was more important to be mobile than to be able to shoot lots. Toughness 5 didn't help much. And my lack of lascannons hurt me I believe though so did bad rolling and possibly target prioritization.

 

I ran the four HB at Astronomi-con Vancouer last year and the 36 inch range annoyed me. I ran the 4 ACs this year and the lack of mobility is too much.

 

Why would the lack of mobility really be a problem?

With the AutoCannons, you're reaching out to 48", that should be enough to pretty much cover a board.

Dakka Predator won't be moving or if it does, its going to be moving 12" to redeploy to another fire lane.

Even Oblits barely count as mobile, with a 4-5" movement you can't expect alot.

 

Unless your tables are set up very oddly, it seems like you should be able to cover the majority of targets from a decent fire position. Sure they'll get a cover save, but you can still hit them.

 

First mission two troops and an HQ start on the board so all 3 havocs don't. I go second and I hid my one rhino on the board behind a rock well a bunker. I march on everything, the havocs can't use their autocannons, the plasma havocs nuke the avatar, heavy bolter havocs also supervise.

 

His turn two, shoots autocannon havocs, kills four, roll double sixes on break test. Only six inches onto table run off without shooting a shot with the autocannons.

 

So in my hypothetical new Havoc-less list, I could drive on my freak predator, shoot once, then not get hurt by the eldar as it was shurican cannon fire that did me in, I think he had four bike squads each three models big to maximize the number of cannons...

 

So yeah being able to move and shoot is my new requirement from my HS choices in my CSM army. I'm not saying havocs will collect dust forever or for a decade, but that they'll be used selectively as I seem to play a lot of non-standard missions because I rarely play at all so usully it is some kind of event. That said the havoc with four specials in a rhino looks like a good choice to me now, drive forward get out in the better position, hold it against all comers.

 

Cheers,

 

If it makes you feel better my havocs look really cool and everyone admires them, then they kill them.

[the jeske]

I've thought about the same idea with Havocks actually. Take a medium sized squad (6-7) of AutoCannon Havocks and give the squad their own Rhino. Use it to block LOS from one side or hinder enemy charges. Hell even make it a pain for units to deepstrike near them.

You could even take it one step further and give the Rhino a Havoc Launcher so it can add some extra firepower down range.

yes I did play test that a lot . two 8 man havock units +NM build more shots then pred , less problems with support unit killing meta [0 fear of dreads or sternguard. termicid does almost nothing.] , just as static . the lol part about them that its actually possible to hide them behind a rhino from incoming fire [something like some mulit shot unit etc] unlike the pred. + they support a the whole mulit shot theame NM have . they proved nice at killing stuff [or helping to kill ] like nob bikers or demon units [i think they would do nice against those wolf bikers too] , what sometimes oblits failed at . But they do not do so well against meq , not when 90% of squads are 10 man strong [sometimes bigger] . In the end am still playing with oblits as they are better all arounders [am talking about NM builds here] . I dont think that in a more short range /hth army like most chaos builds are havocks are a good option.

[Night Lord Dred]

Stunned Predator:

 

And an oblit or 2 would be dead. Yes, the unit that shot it DID waste it's time because they could have shot our rhinos. All they did was delay the predator for another turn. They still wasted their own turn shooting it. They just cancel each other out, except our rhinos would be that much closer.

 

The difference between Eldar stunning and Chaos stunning is that our goal is to move up the field. One turn of stunning an eldar tank means our rhinos are more likely to survive. One turn of an enemy stunning a predator tank is also one more turn the rhinos are likely to survive.

 

You keep saying stunned as if its a big deal. The enemy has to dedicate quite a bit of shooting to stun it, and even if it is stunned (as unlikely as that may be), its for one turn where you throw smoke down and make it near impossible to hit. An oblit would be killed in the same situation, so its hardly a negative point. Its more like "Yay, he's only stunned".

 

Meltas:

 

Never said they were more effective vs Oblits. Obviously meltas smash tanks. But whereas Preds are near immune to long range fire, Oblits are susceptible to both meltas and LR fire.

 

Cover:

 

Your argument is a little contradicting here. You say people dont use lascannons - fine - but that only helps the preds argument. Look at the numbers I ran. It was like 3.5% against Strg 9 fire in cover. Who cares then? Eldar scatter lasers do nothing to it, orks missles in shoota squads arnt likely to hit it,

 

Also, dont forget that LoS is taken from the models view. So even if youre concerned about that 3% chance...seeing as how say, a space marine is much shorter that a rhino, theyre aiming up over the rhino Provided the rhino isnt right next to the pred, he'll have complete cover. But Id rather my opponent shoot the pred and fail anyways to be honest.

 

Point is, LR fire isnt going to do anything to a pred. Oblits have their advantages (mainly deepstriking and plasma cannons), but if you dont want that, theres no reason to take them. Theyll still die to meltas aswell, so theres really no advantage there. Theyre just more expensive & more susceptible.

 

----

 

Havoc's Rhino:

 

Is better off driving up with the others giving 4+ saves to the ones with troops inside. If a rhino is destroyed, the troops can embark on the empty rhino the next turn and keep going. Its a fantastic 35 points.

[Atheist]

Havoc's Rhino:

 

Is better off driving up with the others giving 4+ saves to the ones with troops inside. If a rhino is destroyed, the troops can embark on the empty rhino the next turn and keep going. Its a fantastic 35 points.

 

Agreed , but an extra easy kill point as well .

 

However , it can be bought at 50 points with a havoc launcher for a more versatile role .

 

Assuming that the havocs will be somewhere with a clear view ( sometimes an upper level of a ruin ) it can be deployed defensively when facing drop pod assault/3-man strong units of daemonic flamers ( also know as the bane of all power armor ) deep striking to protect the havocs from deep striking template weapons , firing its havoc launcher each round and moving if needed to deny an objective , pick up troops whose rhino has been destroyed etc if not needed to be deployed defensively .

 

Still an extra kill point , but at a more useful role , 50 more versatile points .

[the jeske]

The enemy has to dedicate quite a bit of shooting to stun it, and even if it is stunned (as unlikely as that may be), its for one turn where you throw smoke down and make it near impossible to hit.

because it is . If its turn 2 and your only other support units are termicid , if the preds get taked out within turn 1 [stuned/killed] and turn 2 [stuned/shaken] . they dont do nothing . drawing fire is good when you force your opponent to use more then one squad. termicid are a good example of this . they come down smoke/shake/stun something[ok so this is the part they are different from preds , as preds may never actually kill something] and land against non skimer armies , now they have to be shot at by 2 normal units or assaulted by a real counter unit [what means unit +HQ most of the time] and that really draws fire away from rhinos. If a unit that was tailored to kill tanks , kills one it did not waste time. When that one pred is dead which unit do you counter walkers or dragons ? and with what ? you break up the rhino force and go after them with our troops or do you leave the rhinos unprotected [and eating those twin linked RL for the rest of the game] and counter then with DPs , if they are in range . all that only if your opponent didnt look where your DP can be next turn and didnt didnt put the serpent in the way during disembarking .

 

Your argument is a little contradicting here. You say people dont use lascannons - fine - but that only helps the preds argument. Look at the numbers I ran. It was like 3.5% against Strg 9 fire in cover. Who cares then? Eldar scatter lasers do nothing to it, orks missles in shoota squads arnt likely to hit it,

the difference is that , if someone actually uses long range fire power its going to be 10+[like IG] lascanons . and with a rhino wall[or against eldar/tau deep strike] the oblits wont get hit at all . also for oblits , if they have rhino cover the cover can move with them . a pred has to play on a table where there is enough terrain in your deployment to put it in[times two as its two preds] . I cant advance preds with rhinos , because A it doesnt make sense to bring long range fire power closer to the enemy . B if it moves it shots less the oblits for almost the same points C it will still get fired at , while I can make the number of hvy weapons shots made against oblits smaller .

 

The difference between Eldar stunning and Chaos stunning is that our goal is to move up the field.

that would mean that an eldar army is build in a such a way that it cant kill 4 csm troop choices and to win 2/3 of all games , the only way for the eldar list is to slow the troops down and hope the dire avanger serpent are still alive at the end of the game. am I understanding this right?

 

 

Also, dont forget that LoS is taken from the models view. So even if youre concerned about that 3% chance...seeing as how say, a space marine is much shorter that a rhino, theyre aiming up over the rhino Provided the rhino isnt right next to the pred, he'll have complete cover. But Id rather my opponent shoot the pred and fail anyways to be honest.

am not fogetting that , but am not getting the example . csm dont use hvy weapons and sm tacticals rarelly use their hvy weapons [as they have to stay alive , watch for lash or mulit shot units etc] . and if someone is actually using sm with hvy weapons , its much easier to find cover for them [and that most of the time means 1-2" higher then normal table lvl ] , then for a pred.

[Night Lord Dred]

Youre going so far off now. This is Oblits vs. Combi Pred. Everything else remains the same. The focus is looking at what each unit can do.

 

Again, if a predator is stunned, that means its a dead oblit. If you hide your oblits, that means those 10 lascannons just blew up your rhino, the most important part of the army, instead. And again, those 10 lascannons shooting at a pred are still going to have a hard time taking it down (especially at BS3).

 

Everything youre saying can be flipped around and used as a negative towards oblits. If you Deepstrike oblits in on turn 2, what happens to all the transports that are moving up the field? If you have oblits on turn 1, what do YOU do if theyre killed? Its no different, if your enemy kills your LR fire support, they kill your LR fire support. Theres nothing more to it. But oblits are far more likely to bite the bullet first turn than preds are.

 

Preds have more firepower and better defense against LR fire. Stunned is better than killed. Period. If you want to rhino wall, and your opponent still shoots at AV13 with 4+ cover save from the other side of the board, GOOD. Hes not going to take it down. Hes not shooting at Rhinos. This is a 130 point fire magnet that they just cant take down...and you can take two of them for extreme resilience. Let him have that 3.5% chance. Its the best possible outcome - he's wasting his shooting.

 

As for the eldar thing...if eldar are going after preds and stunning them, theyre doing nothing to help themselves because they need to take down the Rhinos, as you said. Getting stunned by eldar is a good thing because youre still alive, and you moved up the field with other units, all at the expense of only 1 turn of shooting.

 

The entire reason the predator is so good is because most of the time, our goal is to move up the field. Having a long range Av13 tank sitting in the back for so little points really confuses your opponents goals. Does he take down the rhinos or does he go out of his way to take down the preds? Stunning our tank means nothing because were not relying on that shooting. If we were a gunline army, yes, preds would suck because every turn of shooting missed is one more turn the enemy moves closer to us and beats us in CC.

 

Except the roles are reversed, and any shots at the pred, even stunning it, might as well be reversed as well. If he shoots and stuns your pred, just imagine you shot your pred and stunned the enemy vehicle, which we could consider a good thing as it would protect our rhinos. Its the exact same outcome, except out opponent is doing it for us.

[Tunagami]

All I know is at the moment, when I play my necrons vs armies with with preds/prisms/etc, I am happy because while I might not be able to blow them up, they won't be shooting anything the whole game, effectively making them worthless (except maybe the transport capacity of the falcon). Oblits on the other hand are a bear to deal with. ya just can't stun em :)

 

So vs the crons, bring on the predators!

[minigun762]

All I know is at the moment, when I play my necrons vs armies with with preds/prisms/etc, I am happy because while I might not be able to blow them up, they won't be shooting anything the whole game, effectively making them worthless (except maybe the transport capacity of the falcon). Oblits on the other hand are a bear to deal with. ya just can't stun em :D

 

So vs the crons, bring on the predators!

 

Well I'd say that Necron are one of the times where the Combi-Predatator is actually wasted because you have no AV targets and few MCs/high T targets.

Instead the Plasma Cannons on the Oblits will be very powerful here.

 

We talked earlier about the Eldar shooting and one advantage of both the Predator and Obliterator is the enhanced range of their weapons and this is especially so for the Predator since it has 3 weapons over 48". Given first turn, its quite likely that the Predator will keep the Falcons/Prisms/Serpants stunned which protects them and allows them to keep pumping out damage.

[Innus Bade 9]

The way I use oblits in my IW's is by setting a pair out on the front lines and then deep striking a second pair into enemy territory when the time is right. The deep striking allows me instantly be within range to use that good old fashioned multi-melta and if it is close enough extra D6 pen. on the rear armour of those pesky loyalist tanks. BOOM! :(

[Drudge Dreadnought]

deep striking a second pair into enemy territory when the time is right

 

How can you do it when the time is right? You can't control when deepstrikers come in.

[Atheist]

Well , if not playing against a horde army , almost any time between 2nd and 3rd turn is "right" , after that is way past the "right" time .

 

And the above sentence sums up the whole deep striking "problem" - I think .

[the jeske]

Again, if a predator is stunned, that means its a dead oblit. If you hide your oblits, that means those 10 lascannons just blew up your rhino, the most important part of the army, instead.

list the number of builds that run 10 lascanons in their builds in normal non apo games ? IG ... and that is more or less it .+those 10 lascanons would have to get los to the rhinos , there would have to be no terrain and no smokes on the rhino and they all would have to hit .

also in games where you know your playing against someone with strong anti tank[like eldar] you can always put oblits in to deep strike to have a stronger termicid group [as without transports eldar troops die real fast] . yes this does mean a rhino poped or two or a downed DP sooner then turn 3 . but if it means that on turn 3 /4 eldar have no transports or at least troops without transports its a good trade. also the stuned=dead is not so true . a duo of attack bikes with MM will stune a pred , a drop dread will stun it too[thats if it doesnt blow it up] . same unit with LoS to oblits ? kill single oblit or no oblit at all .you have to stack more fire power or mulit shot weapons [moving the same away from rhinos] on them to kill them. so the stuned pred=dead oblit is not totally true .

 

If you have oblits on turn 1, what do YOU do if theyre killed?

this means the rhinos wall is boosted , there is no LoS blockers , my army is slogging in from begining of turn 1 , there probablly aint cover or my opponent can ingore it [so runing next turn wont help] , and I have dead oblits what means DP die next turn. I lose , unless it was some freak lucky shot[x4 for each rhino].

But oblits are far more likely to bite the bullet first turn than preds are.

I think I already proved that is not the case. of all the units that pop preds with no problems , alway with a close to 100% success rate only fire dragons kill 2 oblits in one turn realiablly enough neither drop dreads, nor termicid , nor MM attack bikes [not even a triple las pred If we count it as an actuall hvy support unit].

 

As for the eldar thing...if eldar are going after preds and stunning them, theyre doing nothing to help themselves because they need to take down the Rhinos, as you said.

well actually eldar blow up more then stun , but yeah they cant destroy the whole army in one turn . wouldnt make much sense to play w40k , if they could.

Does he take down the rhinos or does he go out of his way to take down the preds? Stunning our tank means nothing because were not relying on that shooting.

do you know what happens , if you dont destroy support units in an sm or IG build ? you may think that csm/zerkers/pms are the best troops there are and it is true they are not bad , but A there are armies with troops just as good [ IG, SW] B there are armies that can contain rhino squads [other chaos armies , BT,orks] and there are armies who can fly around your rhinos shoting for 3-4 turns where you cant use your troops [eldar/tau]. also even if we take the normal sm . yes they will land with their drop dreads and yes they will shot at the dreads first turn [i mean wouldnt want to eat 6 lascanons or 4 lascanons and 2 auto canons that just need to pivot to shot], but this is not all support they have . they also rune 2x2 MM attack bikes enough to have a good chance [not as good as a drop dread, but still good] to do something to rhinos from turn 1 and considering you have to move at least part of your army [like the DPs for example] to counter the dreads you will not have enough unit to counter both . oblits are better because A its impossible to kill them on turn one , unless someone made an error durning deployment or something freaky happens [like a 12" medus scater hiting them] . B because they cant get stuned , they can react so those 2 or 3 surviving oblits can go dread hunting[if a pred survives a MM from a dread it doesnt do nothing , it can even tank shock the dread] , what leaves a DP or two free to go after the MM bikes . All of this is on top of oblits being able to use MM,Plasma canons and being good at anti tank, anti meq and anti horde something preds cant do at the same time very well.

 

Also this is an example for sm loyalists , I can give example for other builds like IG, chaos mirror matchs , SW , eldar or tau where oblits clearlly are superior.

[Night Lord Dred]

Again, if a predator is stunned, that means its a dead oblit. If you hide your oblits, that means those 10 lascannons just blew up your rhino, the most important part of the army, instead.

list the number of builds that run 10 lascanons in their builds in normal non apo games ? IG ... and that is more or less it .+those 10 lascanons would have to get los to the rhinos , there would have to be no terrain and no smokes on the rhino and they all would have to hit .

also in games where you know your playing against someone with strong anti tank[like eldar] you can always put oblits in to deep strike to have a stronger termicid group [as without transports eldar troops die real fast] . yes this does mean a rhino poped or two or a downed DP sooner then turn 3 . but if it means that on turn 3 /4 eldar have no transports or at least troops without transports its a good trade. also the stuned=dead is not so true . a duo of attack bikes with MM will stune a pred , a drop dread will stun it too[thats if it doesnt blow it up] . same unit with LoS to oblits ? kill single oblit or no oblit at all .you have to stack more fire power or mulit shot weapons [moving the same away from rhinos] on them to kill them. so the stuned pred=dead oblit is not totally true .

 

 

-10 lascannons is an exaggeration. Either way the point is true. Your transports all getting destroyed turn 1/2 will cripple your game. Having 700 points in reserve to deepstrike means you have so few targets and nothing shooting back. So youre trading off your suicide units + all rhinos + all units that get killed inbetween to kill a few WSs. Chaos Marines can get absolutely destroyed by eldar units in CC too, or be tied up long enough (dire avengers) to take that unit out of the game.

 

-Ok, great, if a dread comes down and stuns my pred, big deal? I havnt lost any points, Im going to have 6+ to hit/4+ cover save the next turn with it. I can twist it just as bad as you can and say some sternguard come down and melta you away. Even if 1 oblit survives, it means nothing. Id rather have a stunned pred than 1 oblit. There are counters to each, except under any circumstance, the pred is going to be less points than an oblit squad.

 

this means the rhinos wall is boosted , there is no LoS blockers , my army is slogging in from begining of turn 1 , there probablly aint cover or my opponent can ingore it [so runing next turn wont help] , and I have dead oblits what means DP die next turn. I lose , unless it was some freak lucky shot[x4 for each rhino].

 

This is BS. Youll have, at most, 1 rhino protecting your oblits (which limits their shooting as well, so this is hardly a perfect strategy) before they have LoS. Guard can just shoot over you, demolishing any oblit squad with ease. A lot of armies can move and shoot.

 

I think I already proved that is not the case. of all the units that pop preds with no problems , alway with a close to 100% success rate only fire dragons kill 2 oblits in one turn realiablly enough neither drop dreads, nor termicid , nor MM attack bikes [not even a triple las pred If we count it as an actuall hvy support unit].

 

 

I said first turn. Anything can get close and destroy both a pred and oblits. What is different between them is the fact that preds are near immune to long range fire, unlike oblits. Dragons wont be destroying my preds until atleast turn 3+.

 

 

 

well actually eldar blow up more then stun , but yeah they cant destroy the whole army in one turn . wouldnt make much sense to play w40k , if they could.

 

That, again, wasnt the point. Youre twisting points left and right here. The point is they can easily dispose of oblits but preds are near immune. Much easier to stun than kill. Still need 4+ to pen and 5+ to destroy, whereas an oblit is a 2+ and he's toast.

 

 

do you know what happens , if you dont destroy support units in an sm or IG build ? you may think that csm/zerkers/pms are the best troops there are and it is true they are not bad , but A there are armies with troops just as good [ IG, SW] B there are armies that can contain rhino squads [other chaos armies , BT,orks] and there are armies who can fly around your rhinos shoting for 3-4 turns where you cant use your troops [eldar/tau]. also even if we take the normal sm . yes they will land with their drop dreads and yes they will shot at the dreads first turn [i mean wouldnt want to eat 6 lascanons or 4 lascanons and 2 auto canons that just need to pivot to shot], but this is not all support they have . they also rune 2x2 MM attack bikes enough to have a good chance [not as good as a drop dread, but still good] to do something to rhinos from turn 1 and considering you have to move at least part of your army [like the DPs for example] to counter the dreads you will not have enough unit to counter both . oblits are better because A its impossible to kill them on turn one , unless someone made an error durning deployment or something freaky happens [like a 12" medus scater hiting them] . B because they cant get stuned , they can react so those 2 or 3 surviving oblits can go dread hunting[if a pred survives a MM from a dread it doesnt do nothing , it can even tank shock the dread] , what leaves a DP or two free to go after the MM bikes . All of this is on top of oblits being able to use MM,Plasma canons and being good at anti tank, anti meq and anti horde something preds cant do at the same time very well.

 

Also this is an example for sm loyalists , I can give example for other builds like IG, chaos mirror matchs , SW , eldar or tau where oblits clearlly are superior.

 

...Annnd this whole paragraph is just a waste of time. You quoted me saying we dont rely on the shooting in the context that we are not a gunline army that is afraid of CC, yet you go ahead and assume it meant LR fire isnt important.

 

Predators are near impossible to kill turn 1. Rhino Walls work just as well as them because the models still cant see them. If a model is fortunate to be tall enough and have a S9 weapon, it still only has a 15% to even stun it. Im perfectly fine with those odds.

 

Droppods can be the death of both oblits and preds, its foolish to say otherwise. Just because your opponent was stupid enough to drop a dread next to 3 melta guns means nothing. Dropping a dread next to a squad of CSM is just as deadly. The dread is the only case where oblits outlive a predator, but the difference in points lost is still minimal in this worst case. Any unit that comes in with multiple guns is going to ultimately cause more damage to oblits than a pred.

 

I love how you come up with these perfect scenarios though where Im limited to what I have, my stuff is blown up, and I only have 1 unit in range and now must decide which unit I want to kill. This is so extreme and absurd that its not even worth replying to. Its like playing rock paper scissors and throwing out "Nuke".

 

Its also foolish to say Chaos doesnt have the best troops in the game. At worst they are tied with SWs. IG troops are not good in CC, a crucial part of the game, so dont kid yourself.

 

I can be just as extreme as you. Watch: Predators are better than Oblits because A) They cost less, :) They have more guns, C) Theyre impossible to kill at long range (like oblits on 2+).

 

The fact is, both have advantages, and both have disadvantages. The difference is, oblits are more susceptible 99.9% of the time, but have a plasma cannon and can deepstrike. That's it. I just summed up the difference between them in one sentence.

[deepstrike]

Something to consider is that oblits can be affected by lash and jaws. So depending on what your opponents regularly use could also push one or the other forward to use. I personally like predators better. They just mesh better with the capabilities and look of my army. Also I dont care for the oblit models. If I were to use a more lashed based army or one that used surgical deep strike attacks to support a firepower based army then oblits it would be.

[Lord Doyok]

In my recent list, I take both. I usually plays 3 Dakka-Preds and leave tankhunting roles to my 2 squads of melta-totting Raptors and Terminators. Thanks to this thread, i change the configuration of my Preds and put in 2 Oblits (and take 8 man Khorne Raptors for fluffy taste)

 

2 Combi-preds @ 260

and 2 Oblits @ 150

Total : 410 pts

 

In my experience, they do compliment each other very much:

i. Oblits can work wonders as rearguards, protecting my Predators. 2 Twinlinked-Flamers and 6 PFist attacks (on the charge) can wipe out a full unit coming in Drop Pods. In my game vs Space Wolves, they defeat a 10 man Grey Hunter unit deepstriking behind my Pred with that combo.

 

ii. Put Oblits in a bunker/cover, and opponent will see Preds as easier prey to shoot at. They are terribly wrong. They can stun preds, they can immobilised, but the threat is still there in the next turn which they still have to deal with. The Preds are not that fragile. Only two Predators destroyed in 5 games.

 

iii. Oblits survived all the 5 games. Quite impressive since they rarely survived in my 2x2 Oblits (no preds) list. This is mainly because my opponents put priorities on the Preds which they think is easier to take out.

 

I read somewhere here about Rhino with HML.. don't do it. It was a bad~bad~bad choice. One of my 5 games is vs Abbadon's BL. The player uses 2x65 points rhino to transport his 2 squads of 7 PMs. 65 points Rhino each!! Talk about High Line :devil:. I destroyed one in the 1st turn and the other, focussed on moving, didn't even use the HML before i destroyed it in turn 4. Been used to just naked Rhinoes all these time, it was quite shocking to fight someone actually playing a High Line Rhino.