Redeemer over Crusader

[HERO]

Aside from the Hurricane Bolters, I see no reason for people to take the Crusader over the Redeemer in small-scale assaults. I'm talking about the 5x Terminators + the IC in the Tank.

 

The 2x Flamestorm Cannons are WAYY more intimidating and powerful than the Hurricane Bolters; especially with Tank Shock and the ever-present amount of MEQ armies out there.

 

Not to mention with the basic MM and EA layout, it costs 10 point less.

 

What do you guys think?

[minigun762]

For my money, the Crusader is more useful in 2 situations.

1) Using oversized squads (either PA or Terminator), where bodies are more important then firepower.

2) Using it as a mobile gunship against horde armies, because you're can fire everything on the move out to 24"

 

If you aren't using it for one of those two situations, I agree that the Redeemer is a better choice.

Those Flame Cannons are scary, but the range is so short that you have to be right ontop of them to fire, where as the Hurricane Bolters can start working their magic from 3x the range.

[HERO]

If you're hauling ass at 12" per movement and using Machine Spirit to just MM, the LRR is superior.

 

Having S6 AP3 flamers in your face is no joke. Once you get to your destination, your AST is going to pressure the enemy enough and the LRR is perfect "fire" support (ha joke).

[I AM THE AWESOME]

I would ONLY consider the Redeemer better if and only if the squad is small enough to fit in the Redeemer in the first place. If it's a choice between one squad with a Crusader, and a reduced version of that with a Redeemer, I'd take the Crusader.

 

Or, if you're not using Termies or Templars (don't know how they'd get a Redeemer in the first place, anyway), then you should consider: Do I want to take a vehicle that can fire more weapons on the move at a safer distance, or do I want something that can fire much more powerful weapons, but well within melta range?

[Sanctjud]

Redeemer is cool, but too situational to make the most out of the flamestorm.

Crusaders allow some more flexibility with respect to range and immobilized results.

 

Like I said elsewhere, when you make restrictions one may always look better. In the end it's a subjective choice, there is really no 'tactical' advantedge each has over the other, they are different vehicles and offer different things to the list, different operational speeds, different utility on the board.

 

I say a LR is generally a questionable decision, more based on what you want to do with them, IE: building a list around them or just throwing them in, both are different.

I say:

The rest of the army list and what points values are we talking about would be more of the direction HERO should take to furthur this discussion.

 

My 7 Cents.

[HERO]

Redeemer is cool, but too situational to make the most out of the flamestorm.

Crusaders allow some more flexibility with respect to range and immobilized results.

 

Like I said elsewhere, when you make restrictions one may always look better. In the end it's a subjective choice, there is really no 'tactical' advantedge each has over the other, they are different vehicles and offer different things to the list, different operational speeds, different utility on the board.

 

I say a LR is generally a questionable decision, more based on what you want to do with them, IE: building a list around them or just throwing them in, both are different.

I say:

The rest of the army list and what points values are we talking about would be more of the direction HERO should take to furthur this discussion.

 

My 7 Cents.

 

With a list that looks like this:

 

1750

 

HQ:

VUlkan = 190

 

TROOP:

10x Tacticals (Rhino, PF, Meltagun, MM) = 235

10x Tacticals (Rhino, PF, Meltagun, MM) = 235

10x Tacticals (Drop Pod, Meltagun, PC) = 215

 

FA:

3x Land Speeder (MM/HF) = 210

 

ELITE:

5x Assault Terminators (TH/SS, LRR, MM, EA) = 465

Ironclad Dreadnought (Drop Pod, HF, IAL) = 195

[Grey Mage]

In a list like that? Perhaps. Its very much an in your face kind of list, but it lacks any kind of ranged capabilities. Id hate to have to charge an IG gunline or a tau battlesuit cadre with that.

 

Against Chaos? Sure. Other Marines? Hope its not SWs.... or templars- both tend to carry more than enough meltaguns to pop that LRR, and are better in CC than you.

 

Of course, the LRR isnt a total loss either. That AP 3 template and shooting both ways will come in handy once you get there.

 

Hrrm. Perhaps drop one of the Speeders to make the other two typhoons with MM or HB and maybe squeeze in another assualt terminator?

 

The reason I take a Crusader is I have Bloodclaws- the ability to throw 16 men in a tank and get equivilant shooting to a tactical squad at the same time is incredible.

 

And thats where the crusader shines- its more flexable than the redeemer. You can stay a little farther out and keep your effectiveness if the enemy has say... 4 meltaguns in that squad. Yet its still a durable landraider with room for a huge assault squad. In fact, its the only Landraider Variant to get both the SWs and BTs to approve it for their trainee squads.

[HERO]

You're right, but LR vulnerbility shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Its the case with all LRs, not just the Redeemer.

 

I just find that the Redeemer is better because it instills more fear into my opponents; S6 AP3 templates with no cover saves is insane, and everytime I've killed something with it, I've made back a lot more points than shooting weenie hurricanes all game. One well-placed template (which isn't too hard considering you can move 12" and machine spirit a flamestorm) can kill its weight in gold.

 

There's a lot of MEQ in this area; maybe it depends on the metagame.

[Chengar Qordath]

You're right, but LR vulnerbility shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Its the case with all LRs, not just the Redeemer.

But the Redeemer has to get a closer to the enemy to be effective than a Crusader or a Godhammer, which makes it that much more vulnerable to melta.

[HERO]

You're right, but LR vulnerbility shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Its the case with all LRs, not just the Redeemer.

But the Redeemer has to get a closer to the enemy to be effective than a Crusader or a Godhammer, which makes it that much more vulnerable to melta.

 

True, but it's a AST delivery system. You park 8" away from the enemy and then charge your ASTs in. My point is, the delivery sweet spot for the LRC and the LRR are the same. They're both weak to melta-based weaponry. What really matters is what is if the Flamestorm Cannons kill more stuff throughout the game than Hurricane Bolters.

[thade]

Something else to consider (which has been weighing on my mind as I look to field my LRC/R for it's first time tomorrow) is that the redeemer's Flamestorm Cannons are template weapons...which sometimes can't be placed while the LR's payload (in my case, my vanguard, but for many, assault termies) might make template-placement impossible.

 

This actually happened versus me: my opponent brought his LRR within assault range, disembarked his assault terminators, then couldn't fire his flamestorms. Upon further examination, we discovered that (due to the terrain lay out and presence of another unit...in this case, a dreadnought and chaplain locked up in close combat) there was no way for him to have disembarked his troops for an assault that turn *and* fire either flamestorm. The LRC is immune to this, as true line of sight could still have been drawn (at best giving my troops a 4+ cover save which they wouldn't use anyway). I'll grant you that the LRR is more lethal (AP 3 is hard to beat), but it's firepower can't always be brought to bear.

[HERO]

Something else to consider (which has been weighing on my mind as I look to field my LRC/R for it's first time tomorrow) is that the redeemer's Flamestorm Cannons are template weapons...which sometimes can't be placed while the LR's payload (in my case, my vanguard, but for many, assault termies) might make template-placement impossible.

 

This actually happened versus me: my opponent brought his LRR within assault range, disembarked his assault terminators, then couldn't fire his flamestorms. Upon further examination, we discovered that (due to the terrain lay out and presence of another unit...in this case, a dreadnought and chaplain locked up in close combat) there was no way for him to have disembarked his troops for an assault that turn *and* fire either flamestorm. The LRC is immune to this, as true line of sight could still have been drawn (at best giving my troops a 4+ cover save which they wouldn't use anyway). I'll grant you that the LRR is more lethal (AP 3 is hard to beat), but it's firepower can't always be brought to bear.

 

The placement of the assault was incorrect then, that or the LRR itself was placed incorrectly.

 

I agree, the LRR is much more lethal, but it's Flamestorm Cannons are harder to use.

[thade]

We were bottlenecked in a valley...had his LR gone the long way around, it would've taken two turns to get there (and I'd have likely cut it off with my other forces). Into the bottleneck he went, and it was tight because of that assault. There was no way he could have placed the LR such that he could both 1. fire the flamestorm w/o the template being over one of his models, and 2. disembarked his full squad of terminators.

 

Believe me...he tried VERY HARD to use that flamer on me. =)

[Chengar Qordath]

True, but it's a AST delivery system. You park 8" away from the enemy and then charge your ASTs in. My point is, the delivery sweet spot for the LRC and the LRR are the same. They're both weak to melta-based weaponry. What really matters is what is if the Flamestorm Cannons kill more stuff throughout the game than Hurricane Bolters.

True, but at the assault sweet spot of 8" away from the enemy a Redeemer's Flamestorm cannons are useless, while the Crusader can fire for full effect.

[Koremu]

If you're not close enough to fire the flamestorm cannon, then you need to drive closer. And anything that's in melta range is in charge range.

[chapter master 454]

Whats all this 'assault terminators' going around for? I personally take this as my most devasting attack group:

 

Lysander

5 tactical terminators with chainfists and CML

Land raider redeemer with all upgrades

 

Pricey but the results are unreal, that group has devasted an entire imperial guard FLANK AND CENTER on it's own. Do I need remind people that if your terminators are doing a braveheart taunt to the enemy with plasma weapons then what the heck are you doing? I have so far am to be let down by my terminators and lysander along with the redeemer, the terminators can mow down infantry at an unreal rate (10 shots plus 2 blast markers, not too shabby for 5 men) while lysander goes about...well i think everyone knows what happens when lysander reachs your lines (just shake my hand, it's game over now, lysanders reached you. Agreed?).

 

generally the redeemer does far better for attacking, the crusader is just some anti-horde weapon.

[HERO]

Can you tank shock into Infantry and then torch them when they're on the sides?

 

I don't have a rulebook with me and I haven't tank shocked since 4th.. has it changed much?

[GreatEscape_13]

Remember that the hurricane bolters on the crusader are defensive weapons, so in many situations you can get off a lot more firepower.

 

And I second what others have said--the flame templates can sometimes be a deployment pain as the squad disembarks before shooting but assaults after.

 

Cheers.

[jeffersonian000]

When using a Redeemer, I tend to pivot it at the end of its move to align one or (on rare occasions) both flamestorms cannon on target, then disembark passengers. Everything will fire, and the passengers will assault whatever is left.

 

When using a Crusader, I tend to stop within rapid fire distance of a target, pivoting to align both hurricane sponsons, disembark, fire, assault, etc.

 

The difference between the two tactics is that in order to fire both hurricanes or both templates, I would need to move no more than 6" which allows the LR to be hit in close combat on a 4+. If I'm only using one flamestorm cannon (or using a GK Crusader), I can get away with moving over 6" for a 6+ to-hit in close combat. Either way I'm opening myself up to short range melta attacks if I don't take those units out first from a distance (which neither Crusaders nor Redeemer can reliably do on their own). This leads to the concept of fielding your forces in depth, so that at least one of your units with a good range and anti-tank is covering the LR by popping melta platforms from a safe distance while the LR approaches its target. Oddly enough, when you take the time to support your LR's correctly, it doesn't matter which one you take as even a Godhammer will get across the table in one piece.

 

SJ

[thade]

When using a Redeemer, I tend to pivot it at the end of its move to align one or (on rare occasions) both flamestorms cannon on target, then disembark passengers. Everything will fire, and the passengers will assault whatever is left.

 

While this is awesome...it is against the rules. You can't change direction after you start tank shocking...and while pivoting doesn't count as moving, it does count as a change of direction. At least, that is very often the interpretation I've heard on it. Something you could still do is tank shock a group, then have a unit that has disembarked flamer them (e.g. my Master of the Forge, or a heavy-flamer touting terminator).

 

Since my vanguard sits in it's bus until the right moment, I rampage the LR through the horde anyway...I think that's where the flamestorms will truly shine.

[HERO]

Remember that the hurricane bolters on the crusader are defensive weapons, so in many situations you can get off a lot more firepower.

 

And I second what others have said--the flame templates can sometimes be a deployment pain as the squad disembarks before shooting but assaults after.

 

Cheers.

 

Brothers, where do you attach the Flamestorm Cannons, in the front 2 Sponsons or the back 2?

 

If you attach Sponsons in the front, you get more room to shoot your Flamestorm Cannons. If you attach them in the back, you can combat squad Sternguard and be within 6" of Melta range. Just a thought for you guys.

[jeffersonian000]

While this is awesome...it is against the rules. You can't change direction after you start tank shocking...and while pivoting doesn't count as moving, it does count as a change of direction. At least, that is very often the interpretation I've heard on it. Something you could still do is tank shock a group, then have a unit that has disembarked flamer them (e.g. my Master of the Forge, or a heavy-flamer touting terminator).

 

Since my vanguard sits in it's bus until the right moment, I rampage the LR through the horde anyway...I think that's where the flamestorms will truly shine.

 

Who said I was tank shocking?

 

SJ

[Grey Mage]

Remember that the hurricane bolters on the crusader are defensive weapons, so in many situations you can get off a lot more firepower.

 

And I second what others have said--the flame templates can sometimes be a deployment pain as the squad disembarks before shooting but assaults after.

 

Cheers.

 

Brothers, where do you attach the Flamestorm Cannons, in the front 2 Sponsons or the back 2?

 

If you attach Sponsons in the front, you get more room to shoot your Flamestorm Cannons. If you attach them in the back, you can combat squad Sternguard and be within 6" of Melta range. Just a thought for you guys.

*blink* what does a landraider have to do with combat squading?

[HERO]

Remember that the hurricane bolters on the crusader are defensive weapons, so in many situations you can get off a lot more firepower.

 

And I second what others have said--the flame templates can sometimes be a deployment pain as the squad disembarks before shooting but assaults after.

 

Cheers.

 

Brothers, where do you attach the Flamestorm Cannons, in the front 2 Sponsons or the back 2?

 

If you attach Sponsons in the front, you get more room to shoot your Flamestorm Cannons. If you attach them in the back, you can combat squad Sternguard and be within 6" of Melta range. Just a thought for you guys.

*blink* what does a landraider have to do with combat squading?

 

A 5-man combi-melta squad of Sternguard.

 

Or within meltagun's sweet spot range.

[Grey Mage]

Remember that the hurricane bolters on the crusader are defensive weapons, so in many situations you can get off a lot more firepower.

 

And I second what others have said--the flame templates can sometimes be a deployment pain as the squad disembarks before shooting but assaults after.

 

Cheers.

 

Brothers, where do you attach the Flamestorm Cannons, in the front 2 Sponsons or the back 2?

 

If you attach Sponsons in the front, you get more room to shoot your Flamestorm Cannons. If you attach them in the back, you can combat squad Sternguard and be within 6" of Melta range. Just a thought for you guys.

*blink* what does a landraider have to do with combat squading?

 

A 5-man combi-melta squad of Sternguard.

 

Or within meltagun's sweet spot range.

So A combat squads worth of sterngaurd, not combat squading a sterngaurd unit as they deploy.

 

Ok. The world makes sense again.