TDA as troops or counts as troops?

[Kenmichi]

Hrathnar, I think you're viewing GW's portrayal of special characters incorrectly. I don't like using that word because obviously our views on the same thing aren't going to be the same, however, from GW's perspective that wasn't their intention. Logan Grimnar was a character produced by GW many years ago so we could have a cool and established character leading our Wolf force. Then Ragnar, Ulrik, Njal, and Bjeorn came to be. In the original 2e and 3e codices they were quite specific on how they wanted those characters used, "only in a Space Wolf army 2,000 points or larger". Then 4e came around with chapter traits and that wording went away. People began to realize they could use Khan to lead an Ultramarine army. Makes no sense, right? But suddenly Aelius and his bike, Severus, renown across the Ultramarine force roll into the picture. Well, that makes sense.

 

5e is released and we lose the chapter traits which is a major loss to us, but what do we gain? Hordes of new and updated special characters. Who are affordable and better yet versatile. Even with the wide array new characters we still have the option to create a character exactly how we want, but unfortunately that is at the loss of special abilities.

 

I understand that you don't want to make your Wolf Lord Hrathnar Flintfang a Logan Grimnar carbon copy, but you don't have to. Designing a counts as character doesn't mean replacing all instances of "Logan Grimnar" with your Wolf Lord's name, it means whatever the hell you want it to mean. The beauty of "counts as" is it can mean whatever you feel like. You could rename Canis Wolfborn into Julius Metalborn and throw him on top of a Rhino with the same statline and make up a completely comical and bogus history for him and it would still work. And you know with that in mind you don't even need to change your Wolf Lord's history. He has his own history and life that's completely unrelated to Logan, but in game terms he is treated the same as Logan. What you want is right there and you can have it, you just need to put that creativity you have to use to get it instead of moping about how you don't want it.

[Toasterfree]

Well I for one am at least trying to be a game developer, but that is another matter entirely.

 

It might be best to avoid any more discussion about hostilities in characters and such, but frankly it seems like GW does need to do more towards making the game itself more DIY.

 

But as I was saying my own frustration on what I consider inadaquite design really isn't the issue here. I think the topic itself has been answered, if our brother does not mind a count-as then he should be all set. Of course if all else fails its important to remember the wonderful Apoc Data Sheets that can be written up. Just remember that those are more a matter of casual play.

Hrathnar, I think you fail to see the design of the codex yet again. And I think that you having a biased as

I for one am at least trying to be a game developer

into your own context. If you are against balancing, then you are missing the first thing about game dev. there has to be a balance. if you have to take a 275 point guy to be able to take all termies as troops, there is nothing wrong with that, how many points is Belial?

 

GW is giving those who want, and have, done cannon great companies the opportunity to do so. when I was considering playing BA again, when I looked at what they have as a "codex" i was disgusted that the entire army was nerfed. Then I remembered my old staple, and the reason I hated playing blood angels, the SW were getting a revision. No customization has been lost! your wolf lord still has a ton of options!!! and you cant do the same war gear load out on any two HQ choices!! WHATS NOT CUSTOM ABOUT THAT???

 

bringing in another game to discuss something here is like compairing apples to pineapples. just because they both have apple in the name (in this case dice that we use), doesnt make them remotely the same thing.

 

Its the same with all of these characters, where they make special named characters of their design that are more powerful for more points, but don't give you the tools to build something simlar, even if they are not as powerful in the end.

 

as far as this goes, lets pick on ragnar. frost blade, bolt pistol. wtn 4+ invul in h2h and gives units with in 12in furious charge. saga of the warrior born. about the same cost as a land raider.

 

wolf lord (which is what ragnar is)-bolt pistol frost blade wtn. belt of rus (4+ invul all the time). doesnt give units furious. saga of the warrior born. comes in only about 50 poinst less then ragnar. guess what? you can add runic armor to him, as well as other nasty things to make him a bit BETTER then ragnar for the same costs.

 

only reason that I like ragnar is he is a COMBAT GOD! so will your wolf lord if you kit him out similar. he just wont get d3+1 attacks on the charge as s6 and i6. whats so bad about that, he will still go before a lot of things. or you can counts as, and still have the same history, he just got a lot madder now!

[Toasterfree]

And you know with that in mind you don't even need to change your Wolf Lord's history. He has his own history and life that's completely unrelated to Logan, but in game terms he is treated the same as Logan. What you want is right there and you can have it, you just need to put that creativity you have to use to get it instead of moping about how you don't want it.

better said then I sir, well done

[Spacefrisian]

I'll be going for Logan and around 30 Wolfguards, i guess Njall and a random Battle leader will also be making a appearance. Oh and they are allowed to teleport again, couldn't find that silly rule in the new dex.

[Lord Noble]

I plan on running a 36th millennia SW army with a Great Wolf who isn't Grimnar per se, but uses his rules...

 

:o

 

-J

[Ulrickthegrey]

I'll be going for Logan and around 30 Wolfguards, i guess Njall and a random Battle leader will also be making a appearance. Oh and they are allowed to teleport again, couldn't find that silly rule in the new dex.

 

 

Back of the book, In the unit point cost area, across from the wolf guard entry, so opposite page. So I am sorry they Still dont Teleport.

[LPetersson]

I'll be going for Logan and around 30 Wolfguards, i guess Njall and a random Battle leader will also be making a appearance. Oh and they are allowed to teleport again, couldn't find that silly rule in the new dex.

 

 

Back of the book, In the unit point cost area, across from the wolf guard entry, so opposite page. So I am sorry they Still dont Teleport.

 

Can I ask which page you see this on?

Try as I might I can find it...

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

'Count as troops' means that they are not troops but act as if they are.

 

If they were troops it would have to say 'are troops'.

 

So they are not troops but enjoy the same benefits under the rules, ie they count as scoring units.

 

So, sorry, but by the strict use of the language you only get your normal number of elite choices.

[Hergrmir]

'Count as troops' means that they are not troops but act as if they are.

 

If they were troops it would have to say 'are troops'.

 

So they are not troops but enjoy the same benefits under the rules, ie they count as scoring units.

 

So, sorry, but by the strict use of the language you only get your normal number of elite choices.

 

Don't think it is. I'll grant there MIGHT be some ambiguity, but it's not written like Kantor's rules in C:SM, which specifically says an elite choice scores, not that an elites choice counts as troops. It's definitely not the case following a strict reading, since obviously it's ambiguous and literate people have come down on both sides of the argument.

 

And there are some throwaway references in the preview article on GW's site about making an all terminator army, but that isn't all that much to go by. I'm sure a FAQ won't clear it up.

[Lord Ragnarok]

'Count as troops' means that they are not troops but act as if they are.

 

If they were troops it would have to say 'are troops'.

 

So they are not troops but enjoy the same benefits under the rules, ie they count as scoring units.

 

So, sorry, but by the strict use of the language you only get your normal number of elite choices.

 

If they meant scoring they would just say "They become scoring".

 

Just think of the term "counts as" with respect to WYSIWYG....I have a large axe which I say "counts as" a power fist. It may look like a normal weapon, but I've made a directive before the game that for the entire game that large axe is counting as a fist. That means it acts every way like a fist and not a power weapon, frost blade for that entire game just like a true WYSIWYG fist.

 

Counts as WG...they may smell like elite, they may look like elite, they may even drink like elites, but for that game, with Logan in tow, they are counting as troops just like GH's/BC's.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Okay - we'll just have to agree to disagree until there is some clarification from GW as there is, in my opinion, no ambiguity in English/English here.

 

Still, 40+ WG in TDA - I can see the attraction and desire to read it in a different way.

[RedMoon]

could not agree with you or say it better there lord ragnarok lol if they wanted them to remain elits they would say "count as scoring"

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

could not agree with you or say it better there lord ragnarok lol if they wanted them to remain elits they would say "count as scoring"

 

They are elites and the use of the numerative verb 'to count (as)' means they remain elites but have the value of something else - in this case troops.

 

Discussion could be based on the extent of that valuation - ie does it extend to taking a troop slot on an army list - but anything about them no longer being elite is just a rabbit hole.

[GreatEscape_13]

Things we can agree upon: The TDA squads chosen in an army with the special character are scoring units (since they "count as" troops and troops = scoring units).

 

Things that are a bit iffy with the wording: TDA squads (again under the special rule) can fill the two mandatory troops choices in a regular game of 40k (to the exclusion of other choices, enabling an entirely TDA-only force akin to Deathwing). Thanks to the wording of good old Pedro Kantor in C:SM, it's a bit of a gray spot.

 

Fun stuff!

[Ulrickthegrey]

I'll be going for Logan and around 30 Wolfguards, i guess Njall and a random Battle leader will also be making a appearance. Oh and they are allowed to teleport again, couldn't find that silly rule in the new dex.

 

 

Back of the book, In the unit point cost area, across from the wolf guard entry, so opposite page. So I am sorry they Still dont Teleport.

 

Can I ask which page you see this on?

Try as I might I can find it...

Wont be able to look at it again till tomorrow, but it is in there. I will write down the page number and get it back to ya. And if it happens that I am wrong, then I will also post that I was mistaken.

[Redbaron997]

Well lets look at this.

 

Canis has a rule that says "Fenrisian wolves count as troops in any army that includes Canis."

 

The exact same wording as

 

"Wolf Guard units count as troops in any army that includes Logan"

 

Since wolves can never claim an objective anyway there would be no advantage to taking them as troops unless they counted completely as a standard troop choice, Thus allowing for 6 units of Wolves (NUTS)

 

So the rule must mean they are taken as a troop choice, and thus Logan can taken WG units as troops, allowing up to 6 units.

 

Its the same language used in the same codex, so while an argument made be made for the Pedro rulling being in a different book, that argument can not be made against these two rules in the same book.