What's the caveat?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Hey guys, i got my first chance to flip through the wolf codex today. However i didn't get to see it fully.

 

I immediately noticed the price for the new gray hunters. The same price as vanilla CSM, the same wargear as them, plus acute senses and counter attack, and their special weapons cost 5 points less. The prices for blood claws and long fangs were also considerably cheaper than havocs or devastators.

 

Now before the current SW codex, the balance between loyalists and chaos was that chaos had slightly more offensive power on its troops (due to extra CC attack and 2 special weapons) whereas loyalists had less but had more utility from combat tactics,combat squadding, and ATSNKF. Chaos also had more powerful troops in the form of cult troopers, while loyalists had more of its strength in elite units and heavy support, with options like sternguard and very effective assault terminators and land raiders.

 

So, what i'm wondering is how to wolves fit into this balance paradigm? They've still got the fancy loyalist toys in their heavies and elites, but now their basic troops are actually better than chaos ones (except maybe for plague marines). Is there some downside to the new wolves that i didn't see? I'm asking because i only had a few minutes with the book, so i couldn't really evaluate it myself.

[Vash113]

Well Wolf Guard are pretty darn expensive and they have a limited number and take up Elites slots to use unless you take the very expensive Logan Grimnar. So without Wolf Guard leaders Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will have a lower leadership. Blood Claws also have far less access to Power Fists and Power Weapons, Blood Claws have lower BS/WS and don't forget Wolf Characters are expensive, very expensive which helps sway the cheap cost of the troops now. Not to mention that Long Fangs don't really have ablative wounds like Havocs or Devastators.

 

Overall it's not about the individual units but their place in the army and the relative costs of all the units together. Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are cheap and effective for what they do but many players will be suckered into spending waaaay too many points on upgrades, characters and the shiny new stuff to really use the basics too heavily. The Characters in particular are where most Wolf armies will make or break themselves I think. One can way too easily cram in tons and tons and tons of points on super-duper killing machines of doom that they don't have enough Troops to hold objectives. The basic Wolf Lord I'm looking at using with the new dex is well over 200 points where as my very effective and killy Imperial Fists Captain with Relic Blade and Storm Shield tops out at 160.

 

Finally neither Wolf Guard nor Grey Hunters have access to heavy weapons without Wolf Guard Terminators attatched to them which means neither unit is that good at standing back to hold objectives so it's a tradeoff. Either make the most of them to assault and get into combat, or waste a unit sitting on an objective that's not going to do much most of the game.

 

Anyway that's just a few things. The other answer is well... there aren't many drawbacks and that's part of the Codex creep. :)

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Skaldnir]

Well a number of things even the field. Wolves are very close ranged fighters making fighting a prepared ranged enemy(like ig) very touch and go. As vash said our ic get expensive, and most wolves have a soft spot for characters. They also lack the easy heavy support of both codex and chaos marines. And lastly wolves are a holy nightmare to paint, especially(not a real word) for budding gamers with more enthusiasm than painting skill. (like myself)

[Grey Mage]

Hey guys, i got my first chance to flip through the wolf codex today. However i didn't get to see it fully.

 

I immediately noticed the price for the new gray hunters. The same price as vanilla CSM, the same wargear as them, plus acute senses and counter attack, and their special weapons cost 5 points less. The prices for blood claws and long fangs were also considerably cheaper than havocs or devastators.

 

Now before the current SW codex, the balance between loyalists and chaos was that chaos had slightly more offensive power on its troops (due to extra CC attack and 2 special weapons) whereas loyalists had less but had more utility from combat tactics,combat squadding, and ATSNKF. Chaos also had more powerful troops in the form of cult troopers, while loyalists had more of its strength in elite units and heavy support, with options like sternguard and very effective assault terminators and land raiders.

 

So, what i'm wondering is how to wolves fit into this balance paradigm? They've still got the fancy loyalist toys in their heavies and elites, but now their basic troops are actually better than chaos ones (except maybe for plague marines). Is there some downside to the new wolves that i didn't see? I'm asking because i only had a few minutes with the book, so i couldn't really evaluate it myself.

 

1) Compared to Chaos our HQs are about twice the price.

2) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalist we have a lower leadership unless we pay for seargents out of our limited Elites selection.

3) Compared to Loyalists our transports carry less.

4) Compared to Loyalists we lack MM attack bike squads, wich for many are now a staple.

5) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists our primary assault troops have a lower WS, BS and LD.

6) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists we lack heavy weapon support. No squad weapons, no obliterators, etc.

7) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists we lack an "Ubershoot" unit- ala sterngaurd or Tzeentch Marines.

8) Our Psychic Hoods work different.

9) Compared to Loyalists our HQs are less survivable but killier.

10) Compared to Chaos our HQs can be more survivable but not nessecarily as Killy.

11) Chaos gets Demons, we get Wolves- not as survivable, but faster and on the board turn 1. Its a tradeoff.

 

Is that a good start?

[El Scotcho]

Well the caveat is that we pat through the nose for our chars, and our transports are stuck with 4th ed unit size restrictions. If you wanted to take a full GH squad in a transport, then you can't add a char or WG, because you can't fit him in. But if you lose the 10th wolf from the squad, then you get no second free assault weapon, which we sort of need to do any shooty damage.

 

Also characters point cost ramp up (to borrow a paintball term) very quickly. You want a chapter master with a stormshield, power sword and bike? 180 points. You want a wolf lord with the same equipment? A lot more (don't know exact price because of lack of codex).

 

To my mind, warrior born is looking sort of overpowered, and I expect it will get nerfed like when we get our first faq. IfI'm reading it correctly you get as many attacks as people you killed in previous combats. Against a guard army, that could potentially add up very quickly against a penal legion player (not that there are many, mind you).

 

Anyhow you could very easily spend 2-3 hundred points on every character on your list, and how many troops would that leave you with in a 1750 or 2k points match (answer, not very many). And on top of that, add wolf guard, who most people will take because of their customizability and the ability to add them to squads so that they can fill in for our lack of sergeants. at a base points cost of 18 a mini, or 33 if you want him in TDA.

[Hergrmir]

Also apparently all the people asking if they can Space Wolf count-as is a HUGE DISADVANTAGE for many people. :P

[Drudge Dreadnought]

That pretty much answers my questions Grey Mage. Thanks!

[Het Masteen]

1) Compared to Chaos our HQs are about twice the price.

2) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalist we have a lower leadership unless we pay for seargents out of our limited Elites selection.

3) Compared to Loyalists our transports carry less.

4) Compared to Loyalists we lack MM attack bike squads, wich for many are now a staple.

5) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists our primary assault troops have a lower WS, BS and LD.

6) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists we lack heavy weapon support. No squad weapons, no obliterators, etc.

7) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists we lack an "Ubershoot" unit- ala sterngaurd or Tzeentch Marines.

8) Our Psychic Hoods work different.

9) Compared to Loyalists our HQs are less survivable but killier.

10) Compared to Chaos our HQs can be more survivable but not nessecarily as Killy.

11) Chaos gets Demons, we get Wolves- not as survivable, but faster and on the board turn 1. Its a tradeoff.

 

Is that a good start?

 

I think a comparison like this is fine but it can confuse the issue. Just one example from above, number 5, our primary assault troops having lower WS, BS and LD. Neither CSM or loyalists can take their primary assault troop choices as Troops. We can assault and claim objectives. Some one playing a Wolves list won't/can't use it the same way as a CSM/LSM list.

 

So, when some asks about balance in relation to a SW vs. CSM/LSM list, I look at how the lists play aganst each other and against other armies. In this regard I think the balance point has shifted considerably in our favour. We now have the most potent anti-psyker army available, able to negate everything from an Eldar Fortune defensive power to the over-used Lash on a 4+, or to take invulnerable saves against Psychic powers. On the other hand, we can use our own psychic powers to become better at dealing with Orks, tau and Nids. We have the most cost-effective troop choice in the game as well. The new codex ain't perfect but what was good has now gotten better.

 

In the past, at times, I've looked sideways at the CSM codex and that tha's how the core of my dream SW army would play. Now we have CSM and LSM players looking enviously at our codex.

[Vanger]

Not to mention that the CSM dex has been written by someone who isn't working at GW anymore, so I wouldn't count on an overall army balance like what you are describing.

[Grey Mage]

Unless your Playing Blood angels- then your assault troops can. OR a Pedro Kantor list- Sterngaurd are as viable in CC as Grey Hunters.

 

The increase in Psycher Protection makes sense from a fluff point of veiw- its the primary purpose of our Rune Priests. Im actually more shocked at the increase of Psychic offensive power.

 

Also... compare our Grey Hunters to Chaos Marines and youll find theyre the same price. While we get Counter Attack and Acute senses they get the option for chaos icons and a higher base leadership- and a built in seargent.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Now why it does have loads of advantages it has one BIG disadvantage. Holding the home objective. Seriously if they have to stay and hold the HO they lose a lot of their power. At least orks get grots to do it but we have to buy a WG in TA and then give him a heavy weapon (I vote Cyclone) so that they have a chance at being an effective HO holder.

[Grey Mage]

Or you could put them near the objective and in cover and just shoot bolters and plasma rifles at 24"?

 

Cause that works great for me I know.

[Vanger]

Also none of you mentioned that CSM can take icons. For which you have to pay even more, but there is an option for CSM to gain extra abilities, and it also acts as a teleport homer.

[Het Masteen]

Unless your Playing Blood angels- then your assault troops can. OR a Pedro Kantor list- Sterngaurd are as viable in CC as Grey Hunters.

 

The increase in Psycher Protection makes sense from a fluff point of veiw- its the primary purpose of our Rune Priests. Im actually more shocked at the increase of Psychic offensive power.

 

Also... compare our Grey Hunters to Chaos Marines and youll find theyre the same price. While we get Counter Attack and Acute senses they get the option for chaos icons and a higher base leadership- and a built in seargent.

 

All valid points, though Grey Hunters/ Blood Claws are cheaper assault units than any other option mentioned above. maybe not as effective, but we can get a lot more for the same price so it balances out (at least, if not knock it in our favour again). And yes, although, CSM and GH are the same price we get 2 meltaguns for 5points, or 2 plasmaguns for 10. We might lose one if we take a sarge but our WG is cheaper by far than the CSM version.

[Grey Mage]

Well lets see... Grey Hunters are the same price as Chaos Marines- and have the same attacks in CC. It could even be argued their seargents are better with SCCWs than our Grey Hunters *and handily Ill admit* so on just each unit by itself chaos is better there, but only just. IF you have the open slot to take WG and IF your willing to pay for 3 of them then the advantage goes to GHs... but only a little. I think its balanced out by Chaos being able to take a Heavy Weapon should they choose- its underrated by most of the people who can in my opinion... though its not everything.

 

When you drop the cost of a Death Company Model from the BAAS and compare it to the 90pts of five BC JPs we come out a little ahead Ill admit- but BCJPs arent scoring. So if were just going with scoring units then BAAS win out be virtue of moving 12" a turn, meaning they dont require a transport or any such drivel. They also have access to two flamers, the BC weapon of choice and get just as man PF attacks in the initial round and more each round after that.