Iron Hands counts as

[Sir Stompalot]

I have a 2000pts space marine army painted up as iron hands and i was wondering would you guys think it a stretch to play them as space wolves. Heres my reasoning, the iron hands have better ties than most chapter to the mechanius so they would have access to more specialized weaponry translating into the extra special weapons on the tactical squads (grey hunters), second wolf guard in terminator armour to represent sergants, third CCW and bolt pistol could be represented by the fact that the bionics can absorb additional recoil. Finally the fact that both chapters use a unique system of organization.

 

So what do you think?

[ORKILL]

I think it's a reach.

[Ulrickthegrey]

Well in a pick up game with friends, I don't think it matters. As thats the only games I play, You wont hear me get mad. As a tournament assistant runner, we normally have alot of players, so I act like a Ref for Rules so the organizer can do his thing, I would say you would take a hit on theme, and paint. Why...well your using a Different codex then C:SM, your using C:SW for the Iron Hands, and as such it seems like your trying to use up all the goodies for an army that your not portraying.

 

Not to mention the fact that alot of tourn players would be upset, but when are they not about something.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Certain aspects are not a stretch. For example fielding tons of terminator armor. Before the 4th ed SM dex, Iron Hands also had squad leaders who could wear terminator armor. I think the more feral parts (thunderwolves/Fennie wolves) would be reach, but imagination and fluff trump all.

[Ulrickthegrey]

True Lord Ragnarok. But from the tournament runner in me, I can see a cause for concern. The Last thing I want is 30min spent telling a player to chill and just go with the punches,

[cherrboh]

tbh, id be pretty peeved if you rocked up with IH trying to claim space wolves rules man.

 

this is no disrespect to you, or other players, but if you want a codex, use that army. if you're using a successor chapter or lost company, i think its pretty much the same thing as the wolves themselves. but IH is too much of a stretch, you wouldnt use SW rules for salamanders or white scars, would you?

[Lord Ragnarok]

With a little imagination and thinking out of the ever, confined mind space of the box, anything is possible. Although I agree that in a tourney situation it may be a bit much to explain all the "count as".

 

However in a friendly setting, or local league, if you are not overladen with stiff backs, then it shouldn't be an issue.

[Hergrmir]

Iron Hands are totally acceptable to be used as counts-as Space Wolves, IMO. Clan structures? Fierce competition? Grizzled veterans leading everyone else? Heroes in dreadnoughts?

 

I'd dump some of the stuff that's especially Wolfy (Wolf Riders, which I'll keep saying I think are dumb anyway every time it comes up :D), and I'm not at all convinced that all SM shouldn't just have BP/CCW/Bolter as standard anyway, and for a techy type like the Iron Hands it makes enough sense. Accute senses is as great an expression of bionics as anything else, and counter-charge is merely a rules-related thing anyway - there's nothing particularly fluffy about running at someone when they run at you that limits it only to Space Wolves. Heck, it makes far more sense for Iron Hands (or Salamanders) to have something like Wolf Claws, since they're the master artisans. Other than the fact that actual wolves have claws and PK deciding it would be some fun parallelism, I'm not really sure what the Wolf Claws are there for, as a metastory concept. Wolves also have JAWS, and you don't see a special rule about biting things. ;)

 

So go nuts, but as with all counts-as, it's your responsibility to be extra-accomodating to everyone else with reminders of what things are - though if you just do reasoable WYSIWIG all they'd really have to remember is extra attacks, counter charge and acute senses.

[Vash113]

Nah uh, I wouldn't go for it. Some things make sense like Venerable Dreadnaughts and Terminator Armor equipped sergeants but that is the absolute extent of the similarities. In all other ways the Iron Hands units are organised according to Codex structures. Their Companies may be wonky but their gear is not. Elite scouts, WS 3 Assault Marines, Terminators with all kinds of mixed gear, bolt pistols, and there's plenty more and that's before you get into the Space Wolf bits.

 

2 interresting similarities contrasted with dozens of incompatible rules, stats and equipment options... :blink: ...

 

I mean if you absolutely want to nobody can stop you, it's your army after all. But I wouldn't suggest it, I probably wouldn't play it and if it was in a tournament I'd think you'd spend far more time having to explain the army than playing. Besides there's always the accusation of "just trying to use the shiniest, cheesiest new rules" and whether true/fluffy or not that's probably what more than a few people will think, which could hurt your scores in a tournament or keep you from getting games at a hobby shop.

 

As for making a fluff justification, well I mean you could come up with at least something to explain Techmarines riding around on Triceratops with a boom box tied to their saddles and a conversion beamer coming out of the dino's mouth. In other words just cause you can do something, that don't make it a good idea.

 

Anyway just my 2 cents.

[Quillen]

It's fine and I played in tournies all over and never got any grief for it and I did it too. I used the old Space Wolf codex for my Imperial Lions. Why? They were not a smurf chapter. They were way out on the eastern fringe and did there own thing. I find a heavy weapon in a tactical squad increably stupid. I mean totally dumb. A tac squad moves and takes ground, Suddenly they have this heavy weapon they lug around but rarely get to use. I saw them working like Space Wolves in a close quarters combat roll, and so I used the codex.

 

I made the name for the squads and they looked fluffy on their squad markings and what not but there gear load out was like Space Wolves. I always got good marks for painting and modeling. No one marked me low for the book I used. In the lists it says I was a space wolf codex list, but eveyone knew the Imperial lions just spanked them. Not the Sons of Russ.

 

 

I needed a change from Space Wolves in the fluff department and wanted to right my on fluff, so I made the imperial lions. I simply used the Space Wolves codex for them.

 

When 4th editon brought out that so loved Marine codex I made them Divergent and gave them cleans and purify??? So they had 2 special weapons. Then I made them their own chapter again.

 

Of course I have been working on my Wolf Wolves and now with the new codex making marines all twinkins again I might use them as a counts as again. Thou I will be playing with my Space Wolves in any tournies I attanded from now on. They look way better. =P

 

 

 

So yes go for it. Play them as a Space Wolves codex that you call what ever chapter you want and paint them how you want. Most people will not care. Just explain you chapter is not a smurf knock off but their own guys and you wanted them to be different. Everyone I have ever met loved my hand outs and fluff and mini dex for them.

[Hergrmir]

Nah uh, I wouldn't go for it. Some things make sense like Venerable Dreadnaughts and Terminator Armor equipped sergeants but that is the absolute extent of the similarities. In all other ways the Iron Hands units are organised according to Codex structures. Their Companies may be wonky but their gear is not. Elite scouts, WS 3 Assault Marines, Terminators with all kinds of mixed gear, bolt pistols, and there's plenty more and that's before you get into the Space Wolf bits.

 

2 interresting similarities contrasted with dozens of incompatible rules, stats and equipment options... :blink: ...

 

I mean if you absolutely want to nobody can stop you, it's your army after all. But I wouldn't suggest it, I probably wouldn't play it and if it was in a tournament I'd think you'd spend far more time having to explain the army than playing. Besides there's always the accusation of "just trying to use the shiniest, cheesiest new rules" and whether true/fluffy or not that's probably what more than a few people will think, which could hurt your scores in a tournament or keep you from getting games at a hobby shop.

 

As for making a fluff justification, well I mean you could come up with at least something to explain Techmarines riding around on Triceratops with a boom box tied to their saddles and a conversion beamer coming out of the dino's mouth. In other words just cause you can do something, that don't make it a good idea.

 

Anyway just my 2 cents.

 

Well, really, if they just avoided the things that just didn't fit at all (OBEL scouts) and their list was mostly Grey Hunters with some TDA leading them and then other Codex vehicles with Long Fang squads (nothing about split fire is because they're SPACE WOLVES RAWR - bionic targeters make more sense anyway), and skipped the Blood Claws options, you're not so bad.

 

I mean, let's give count-as players some credit before assuming they've stuck their foot in their mouth - if I were doing a count-as Blood Angels 1st company army I'm not all of a sudden going to stick in OBEL scouts for the lolz. And if the OP is just doing this for a power list and you think that's not good, then discourage building power lists, but if the OP really just wants that, nothing else matters anyway.

[Vash113]

Well, really, if they just avoided the things that just didn't fit at all (OBEL scouts) and their list was mostly Grey Hunters with some TDA leading them and then other Codex vehicles with Long Fang squads (nothing about split fire is because they're SPACE WOLVES RAWR - bionic targeters make more sense anyway), and skipped the Blood Claws options, you're not so bad.

 

Except Long Fangs can't match the size of a true Devastator Squad, Grey Hunters don't have the equipment options of Tactical Marines and so on and so forth. Even the most apt of similarities has even more non-compatible aspects than they do compatible ones. That would be like playing Space Wolves as Blood Angels so you could use Wulfen as Death Company. Sure you could do that for just that one similarity, but there are so many other things that don't fit that it seems counter-productive in the extreme.

 

I mean, let's give count-as players some credit before assuming they've stuck their foot in their mouth - if I were doing a count-as Blood Angels 1st company army I'm not all of a sudden going to stick in OBEL scouts for the lolz. And if the OP is just doing this for a power list and you think that's not good, then discourage building power lists, but if the OP really just wants that, nothing else matters anyway.

 

Except there really is nadda that you could use to accurately represent an Iron Hands army, after all they are a mostly Codex Chapter and the Space Wolves are about as massively non-codex as you can get. Even our most similar units have many different equipment options, rules, squad sizes, stat lines and so forth.

 

So to simply answer the OP's question, it would be a stretch, a pretty darn big one all things told. I suppose you could do it if you really, absolutely want too, but it's gonna take a lot of explaining.

[Grey Mage]

Dont field Fenrisian Wolves or Thunderwolf Cavalry.....

 

Use regular looking servitors....

 

Instead of Runic Charms call them "Bionics".....

 

Instead of Jaws of the World Wolf call it "Spybot Search and Destroy".

 

Dont field bloodclaws.

 

And I think youd be good to go. Modelwise and rules wise theres alot of similarities between the two chapters. Acute senses? Yeah... bionic eyes in half the squad will do that. BP+CCW? Your a first founding chapter- you can do it if you want to. Venerable Dreadnaught with an Invulnerable save? That would be your Venerable Iron Father.... etc etc.

 

I think its a wonderful idea- it worked just fine with the old codex and itll work just fine with the new one.

 

Except there really is nadda that you could use to accurately represent an Iron Hands army, after all they are a mostly Codex Chapter and the Space Wolves are about as massively non-codex as you can get. Even our most similar units have many different equipment options, rules, squad sizes, stat lines and so forth.

 

Except for the fact that they are NOT a codex chapter- they are organized into "clans" that are only loosely affilitiated and have near autonomous control of themselves. They are a Legion of old, though cut down in size greatly. They are led as often as not by a Chaplain-Techmarines. They dont follow codex organization of squads either... example:TDA seargents.

 

So heres a bit more:

~Vendread leader.

~TDA Seargents.

~Bionics readily available.

~Legion style squads as opposed to CA style.

~No use of Ironclads- most all IH dreads are venerable, and they dont have alot of them.

~Fully flexable armor options and all the latest equipment from their ties with Adeptus Mechanicus.

~Unique Wargear in the leadership showing all of their custom-made stuff off.

 

What do they not have that the IH probly should? Well... attack bike squads... though you dont hear much about IH bikers. Umm... thunderfire cannons? Servo-Harness's and Conversion Beamers.

 

I think there are alot more similarities than Dissimilarities between the two codices. Just avoid a couple units- Wolves, ThunderWolves, BloodClaws... and probly Lone Wolves- though if modeled as an old style Imperial Robot that could work just fine.

 

Think Longfangs arent a big enough squad? Call it a combat squad. Why can they splitfire? Advanced targetting systems from a forgeworld 3000 years ago.

 

Bloodclaw Jumppackers dont line up perfectly... but its the tradeoff between a furious assault or a steady assault. That they have reduced stats does make sense though as for most chapters its the first step up from scout... and I doubt IHs remain there long.

[Hergrmir]

Well, really, if they just avoided the things that just didn't fit at all (OBEL scouts) and their list was mostly Grey Hunters with some TDA leading them and then other Codex vehicles with Long Fang squads (nothing about split fire is because they're SPACE WOLVES RAWR - bionic targeters make more sense anyway), and skipped the Blood Claws options, you're not so bad.

 

Except Long Fangs can't match the size of a true Devastator Squad, Grey Hunters don't have the equipment options of Tactical Marines and so on and so forth. Even the most apt of similarities has even more non-compatible aspects than they do compatible ones. That would be like playing Space Wolves as Blood Angels so you could use Wulfen as Death Company. Sure you could do that for just that one similarity, but there are so many other things that don't fit that it seems counter-productive in the extreme.

 

I mean, let's give count-as players some credit before assuming they've stuck their foot in their mouth - if I were doing a count-as Blood Angels 1st company army I'm not all of a sudden going to stick in OBEL scouts for the lolz. And if the OP is just doing this for a power list and you think that's not good, then discourage building power lists, but if the OP really just wants that, nothing else matters anyway.

 

Except there really is nadda that you could use to accurately represent an Iron Hands army, after all they are a mostly Codex Chapter and the Space Wolves are about as massively non-codex as you can get. Even our most similar units have many different equipment options, rules, squad sizes, stat lines and so forth.

 

So to simply answer the OP's question, it would be a stretch, a pretty darn big one all things told. I suppose you could do it if you really, absolutely want too, but it's gonna take a lot of explaining.

 

Yeah, but the SM rules don't enforce squad sizes much anymore. You'd have a 5 man Devastator squad. If you really wanted to follow the codex, buy yourself a 5-man GH squad with 1 special and paint it up as the other half as that Devastator squad and you're off to the races.

 

Didn't think about the lack of heavies in a GH squad though, so either the OP is going to self-gimp the list by only taking 5-man with specials, or have to make a fluff leap to explain that one. Still, not the end of the world in my books, though it is a bit suspect - still think HQ dread and Terminator sergeants are worth the tradeoff though, but YM obviously does V. :P

[Grey Mage]

Again: OR you could remember that the Iron Hands are NOT a codex chapter, they are a First Founding Legion.

 

Seriously, read their IA article. They have about as much in common with the Ultramarines as the Salamanders- wich is to say not a whole lot.

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

I perosnally detest "counts as" armies unless they resemble the thing they are cloning ie second founding chapters, As for Iron hands as Space Wolves I'd tell you where to go if you plonked them down in front of me. Iron Hands are a codex chapter and have a book that covers them sufficiently. Sorry if this isnt what you want to hear or sounds a bit harsh but as a true blue SW player it peevs me off a little.

[Grey Mage]

I perosnally detest "counts as" armies unless they resemble the thing they are cloning ie second founding chapters, As for Iron hands as Space Wolves I'd tell you where to go if you plonked them down in front of me. Iron Hands are a codex chapter and have a book that covers them sufficiently. Sorry if this isnt what you want to hear or sounds a bit harsh but as a true blue SW player it peevs me off a little.

Again... where on earth did you get the idea they were a Codex Chapter?

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

I perosnally detest "counts as" armies unless they resemble the thing they are cloning ie second founding chapters, As for Iron hands as Space Wolves I'd tell you where to go if you plonked them down in front of me. Iron Hands are a codex chapter and have a book that covers them sufficiently. Sorry if this isnt what you want to hear or sounds a bit harsh but as a true blue SW player it peevs me off a little.

Again... where on earth did you get the idea they were a Codex Chapter?

 

From the fact they are covered in C:SM pure and simple, if they were to have special characters etc they would have had thier own book years ago. The point is I dont want to get into an arguement about whether they are codex or not my point is we are going to get a ton of "Can I use my XXX as Space Wolves?" in the near future.

 

At the end of the day people can do what ever they please, lets not forget this is a Space Wolves forum where I like to come and discuss Space Wolves, not Iron Handed Space Wolfy Sisters of Tau.

[Hergrmir]

I perosnally detest "counts as" armies unless they resemble the thing they are cloning ie second founding chapters, As for Iron hands as Space Wolves I'd tell you where to go if you plonked them down in front of me. Iron Hands are a codex chapter and have a book that covers them sufficiently. Sorry if this isnt what you want to hear or sounds a bit harsh but as a true blue SW player it peevs me off a little.

Again... where on earth did you get the idea they were a Codex Chapter?

 

From the fact they are covered in C:SM pure and simple, if they were to have special characters etc they would have had thier own book years ago. The point is I dont want to get into an arguement about whether they are codex or not my point is we are going to get a ton of "Can I use my XXX as Space Wolves?" in the near future.

 

At the end of the day people can do what ever they please, lets not forget this is a Space Wolves forum where I like to come and discuss Space Wolves, not Iron Handed Space Wolfy Sisters of Tau.

 

Well, the simple answer would be for the 'can I play SW as X' folks to realise that yes, you can, and please stop asking. :P

And they can still read tactical threads as well as anyone else, after all.

[Grey Mage]

I perosnally detest "counts as" armies unless they resemble the thing they are cloning ie second founding chapters, As for Iron hands as Space Wolves I'd tell you where to go if you plonked them down in front of me. Iron Hands are a codex chapter and have a book that covers them sufficiently. Sorry if this isnt what you want to hear or sounds a bit harsh but as a true blue SW player it peevs me off a little.

Again... where on earth did you get the idea they were a Codex Chapter?

 

From the fact they are covered in C:SM pure and simple, if they were to have special characters etc they would have had thier own book years ago. The point is I dont want to get into an arguement about whether they are codex or not my point is we are going to get a ton of "Can I use my XXX as Space Wolves?" in the near future.

 

At the end of the day people can do what ever they please, lets not forget this is a Space Wolves forum where I like to come and discuss Space Wolves, not Iron Handed Space Wolfy Sisters of Tau.

Actually believe it or not they did once have rules that you could play them with- it was a White Dwarf thing as I recall. There IA also showed alot of dissimilarities.

 

Frankly they just arent popular enough for their own book... I dont think we should punish them for that. I doubt well get people in here talking about the Iron Hands... and if we do the mods will move those threads to where they are supposed to be- Index Astartes, chapters of legend.

 

Dont punish one idea because of the stupidity of another... it smacks of the inquisition. :P

[Vash113]

Well actually I'd say the Iron Hands are for the most part a Codex Chapter. They don't have a Chapter Master, they have Clan Companies but other than that they have scouts, Tactical Marines, Devasators, and so on and so forth.

 

Heck the Iron Hands are more Codex adherent than the White Scars or Salamanders. The Iron Hands aren't ultra conservative Codex adherents like the Ultramarines but they are defined as a Codex Chapter in the fluff, even when they had rules in white dwarf if I recall correctly.

[dublindawg]

To throw in my 2 cents, maybe 1 1/2 cents....with so many people playing at local gaming shops with armies that are WIP's it's hard to say no you cannot do that. As long as a player is able to represent a squad/pack armed and deployed as allowed in a 'dex then so be it. If a model has a cyber leg or arm, no problem, bionics have pretty much been negated in 5th ed in terms of added abilities.

 

Now if a player brings an army to a table and is combining the best of both chapters to create his force then they are a power player who doesn't understand that every army has their strength and weaknesses.

 

Personally, my army has been a WIP for several years (I hate painting) and I was using the C:SM as the guide for my army. With the new SW coming out, I am pulling every model, tank, dread that I have that isn't actually painted, or geared for a specific roll to do conversions to grey hunters. Worse case is, I'm popping heads off some of the tacticals to fill out packs. On the good side my old army had all black armor and white helmets, very easy to apply thin coats of grey to bring them in line with the Space Wolf look.

[Ulrickthegrey]

What can I say, this thread keeps going around in circles. But as several people have pointed out, playing Iron hands as SW is not a good idea. Half the people will want to kill you, the other half will let you play it. In a tournament I strongly, Strongly advise against it.

 

That is all... Carry on this pointless debate. As people have the freedom to do as they wish, even if it is a dumb idea. (Calling someone stupid for saying its not a good idea to play Iron hand color scheme as SW, is just as Stupid.)

[Sir Stompalot]

I wasn't planning on taking lone wolves or anything like that.my list was going to be bjorn and grey hunter packs led by wolf guard terminators and 1 or 2 iron priests with servitors. Based on the opinions of everybody here I will play them as space wolves but only if my oppenet gives me permission otherwise I will field them as regular space marines.

[cherrboh]

mate, again i have to stress how much i would not let you play IH as SW. as far as im concerned, youre just another power gamer just trying to make an excuse to use the most updated codex to make your army strongest.

 

if you want to use SW rules, USE SPACE WOLVES!. seriously, the models are awesome, if you want to convert to being a son of russ, do so, have an ale, and sit at the fire and tell boastful stories. dont hide behind your old figures. become a SW. just dont make us look bad by pretending anyone else is nearly as awesome!!!=D