Iron Hands counts as

[lunchb0x]

Look, I said it shouldnt and doesnt matter.

 

End of discussion.

 

Lunchb0x has spoken!

[Ominous Anonymous]

they see me trollin'

 

they hatin'

 

tryin to catch me ridin' furry

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2453/3931965984_9da74fe56f_o.gif

 

...well, anyways, anyone care to think up a list to give the OP? Say 1500pts, Bjorn as an HQ to start things off.

[the great beaver]

I just want to say that i fully support the use of my beloved codex for the purpose of making a proper iron hands army. the C:SM made it very hard to come up with a space marine army that is very different from other space marine armies and I applaud the creativity inherent in taking the specialized codex of Russ' sons to properly show the uniqueness of the Iron Hands army.

 

it is just a set of rules after all and so long as your models are easily distinguishable there is no rule stating your black marines can't use this codex.

 

now onto some ideas...

 

for your blood claws...if you can get enough servo arms and other gadgets it could represent the extra attacks you get on the charge

 

I wonder if it would be too much to make a tech marine into a rune priest by taking off the back pack and modding him a bit

 

you know...those are the only two things you'd need any converting for...the rest is just fur pelts and less army options :o

[Ominous Anonymous]

What about something like Lone Wolves? Could they adequately fit the fluff or would some sort of conversion have to be introduced like TW Cav? Perhaps we could start compiling a list of adequate representations.

 

Wish Bannus would make a post or something already; he was browsing the topic earlier. :P

[Rod Hull]

Lone Wolves could be marines whose bodies are rejecting their bionic enhancements for whatever reason, and so they want to die in battle. Rune priests modeled as techmarines in full harness (powers representing experimental weapon rigs).

[Ominous Anonymous]

So, just to go over this:

 

-Wolf Lords/Battle Leaders: Your generic Marine commander

 

-Rune Priest: Techmarines with awesome weapon harness, has to make a technologic test in order to use it :P

 

-Grey Hunters: Your generic Tactical squads

 

-Blood Claws: Initiates that don't have their bionics in yet, so their precision (WS/BS) is off? Alternatively, marines with too many bionics, making their movements jerky in close combat (explains WS3), come equipped with extra arms for extra attacks

 

-Fenrisian Wolves: Combat Servitors

 

-Wolf Priests: Iron Fathers, can give a squad targeting information on enemy weak points?

 

Everything else is more or less Copy/Pasted from C:SM, so you could go from there.

[CrazyCanuk]

If you have the codex, and you tell me what all your different units count as..then go nuts!

 

So what if I want to paint Pink marines and use the Space Pup book. The main rule book even encourages "count as" units/armies. I paid for the models and took the time to paint them. If people dont like it, then I am not the lesser man. *shrug*

[Night Runner]

I wasn't planning on taking lone wolves or anything like that.my list was going to be bjorn and grey hunter packs led by wolf guard terminators and 1 or 2 iron priests with servitors. Based on the opinions of everybody here I will play them as space wolves but only if my oppenet gives me permission otherwise I will field them as regular space marines.

 

I think if you use the SW codex and only that dex (not mixing the best of C:SM and C:SW) with restraint, in order to bring out an army that matches or comes close to an Iron Hands force I'd say go for it. What makes me cringe is if a Iron Hands' player uses the Mark of Wulfen and explains it as haywired bionics, for example.

 

But I wouldn't use such army for tournaments, because it seems to go against the spirit of the event. But that's just me.

[dublindawg]

So what if I want to paint Pink marines and use the Space Pup book. The main rule book even encourages "count as" units/armies. I paid for the models and took the time to paint them. If people dont like it, then I am not the lesser man. *shrug*

 

Let's see some of those pink poodles you painted up!

[cherrboh]

I have a 2000pts space marine army painted up as iron hands and i was wondering would you guys think it a stretch to play them as space wolves.

 

So what do you think?

 

 

thats what sir stompalot asked. how would we think. and so, by actually responding to this in a truthful manner, its wrong?

 

oh yeah, i cant actually say what i think, because if it isnt cutesie and lubby dubby then we're pig headed? and then wait for the bandwagon and say "yeah, i think you're wrong for having a different opinion"

 

some people would play sir stompalot, some wouldnt. i havent criticised everyone that would play against him. for whoever implied i was policing him not to play, maybe i used the wrong terminology. i suppose i shouldve said "I wouldnt play you, because i think its too much of a stretch for 'counts as', seeing as my interpretation of 'counts as' reasonably represents the rules and army/object it is supposed to simulate". kinda hypocritical though, calling me the policeman yet policing my words to the letter...

 

the arguing and not so friendly banter is getting childish. i admit in part i may have contributed to some. either way sir stompalot, good luck with your games mate.

[Bran Scalphunter]

*grabs the SHOOT HERE sign and waves it for the Mods to see*

 

Damn, this thread started out good but it's just ended up being people bitching and moaning at each other. Some say "no, it's not cool to do IH using SW rules". The others say "Go ahead".

 

Really, I don't give a damn what 99.999999999999999% of you do, since I'll never see that 99.9999999999999% of people in real life. The same goes for most of the forum, so quit acting like a bunch of jackasses and stop flaming.It's not your army so just let it fething be!

 

Regardless, I see this thread dying very soon...

 

:P

[Wing_Knight]

Personally i feel if you spent the time to convert up and paint any army but decided to use a different rule base that you could sufficiently point out to an opponent what was what. I personally have no issue with that, and nor do i think you would have any problems with a judge in a tournament. Now having said that you obviously would not be allowed to take bits and pieces from more then one codex and you would need to make sure everything is on the base/size it was intended in the codex i.e your frensian wolves counts as had better be on Calvary bases. And to be frank i don't have a problem with Deathwing deciding to run with our codex either granted i think they would be better off with their own but if a player wants to do it I have no problem with it. Just my 2 cents.

 

*edit* just thought of this: I would particularly not feel bad about Deathwing if they limited themselves in what they took i.e. didn't take m.o.t.w./ frost blades things that they never would have access too. If they did that i truly would applaud them but still i wouldn't refuse to play them if they did.

[Ominous Anonymous]

*grabs the SHOOT HERE sign and waves it for the Mods to see*

 

Damn, this thread started out good but it's just ended up being people bitching and moaning at each other. Some say "no, it's not cool to do IH using SW rules". The others say "Go ahead".

 

Really, I don't give a damn what 99.999999999999999% of you do, since I'll never see that 99.9999999999999% of people in real life. The same goes for most of the forum, so quit acting like a bunch of jackasses and stop flaming.It's not your army so just let it fething be!

 

Regardless, I see this thread dying very soon...

 

:P

 

You wanna help redeem it by adding to the discussion or are you just going to give the mods 1 more reason to close it? :lol:

[KiltedMarine]

We've already had one "counts as" discussion locked, let's see if we can redeem this one.

 

I would think, to answer Sir Stompalot directly, that it might be a stretch, but it could be done. GHs with TDA WG as sergeants works really well, and Bjorn as a Venerable Dread HQ fits very well.

 

As Grey Mage has repeatedly pointed out, IH are a First Founding Legion, and while they've gotten lumped in with the Smurfy chapters recently, they're actually strongly divergent. Go to town with it! Stay away from the "space barbarian" elements like wolves, wolf cavalry, etc., and I'd also avoid BCs just because of the stat line difference being problematic, but otherwise a mech list would make a lot of sense.

 

I second Lunchb0x and the other brethren who've spoken similarly- if you have the rules and can explain what counts as what, I'll be happy to play you.

 

To the posters who have been petulant- you're giving our hall a bad name, brothers. We're supposed to be jovial, welcoming, and better than this. Leave the whinging and crying to the dress-wearing DA and the pretty-boys of the BA. :(

 

You are free to express your opinion, certainly. Once. Politely. If you disagree, you can simply say "I don't like the idea, and wouldn't want to play against a 'counts as' army." Ranting about it further just makes you, and the rest of us by affiliation, look like antisocial whiners. See my above statements about us being better than that.

[Hfran Morkai]

We've already had one "counts as" discussion locked, let's see if we can redeem this one.

 

I would think, to answer Sir Stompalot directly, that it might be a stretch, but it could be done. GHs with TDA WG as sergeants works really well, and Bjorn as a Venerable Dread HQ fits very well.

 

As Grey Mage has repeatedly pointed out, IH are a First Founding Legion, and while they've gotten lumped in with the Smurfy chapters recently, they're actually strongly divergent. Go to town with it! Stay away from the "space barbarian" elements like wolves, wolf cavalry, etc., and I'd also avoid BCs just because of the stat line difference being problematic, but otherwise a mech list would make a lot of sense.

 

I second Lunchb0x and the other brethren who've spoken similarly- if you have the rules and can explain what counts as what, I'll be happy to play you.

 

To the posters who have been petulant- you're giving our hall a bad name, brothers. We're supposed to be jovial, welcoming, and better than this. Leave the whinging and crying to the dress-wearing DA and the pretty-boys of the BA. :(

 

You are free to express your opinion, certainly. Once. Politely. If you disagree, you can simply say "I don't like the idea, and wouldn't want to play against a 'counts as' army." Ranting about it further just makes you, and the rest of us by affiliation, look like antisocial whiners. See my above statements about us being better than that.

 

That was so beautifully put, by a member of our halls. We should welcome these people, for are they not in the hobby foe enjoyment?

[The emperors chosen]

to answer the op: I say yes, just avoid any "wolf" units, and you should be good. I mean the Sm codex has almost no Iron Hands units and fluff,(a successor chapter got more pics than them) So go for it, Gw has said that count as is ok, so go wild, with the 4 Hq choices, you can show a leadership council that the IH have, you can use termie seargeants, accurate Devs(long fangs) and can go mech if you want. Amd if you do this army, I want pics

Lunchb0x-I third :huh: any and all brothers who will play against a creative army like this

to the haters- please stop flaming, everyone has their own unique ideas, and all deserve a chance to express them, we play a game where imagination and creativity are always wanted, and if you don't like it, give reasons, not just "oh, just because there is a sm codex means you can't use this one"

[Decoy]

TEC: For some of us, playing against an army like that just isn't an enjoyable experience. We simply don't want to play against them, more than anything else, on moral principle (or something resembling it, at any rate...). If someone doesn't want to play, why should they be disallowed? Their reasons are their own.

 

For instance, I'm either not playing against, or dedicating myself solely to tabling (I haven't decided which yet) quite a few "Counts as" armies. Why? A selfish, contrived reason that has no real bearing on the game or much of anything else, I just want to do it. There doesn't always have to be a reason for something, mate.

[Thorgrim Blackwolf]

Off Topic:

 

On a hot issue like using our new codex 'as counts' for different armies is going to generate two strongly opposed camps who are not going to back down even if the mods wander in and melta the thread. *Sigh* This started out as a good debate between two sides but quickly degenerated into a slanging match with personal shots flying everywhere (for example, Rod Hull's comments were both particulary insulting and amusing at the same time to somebody reading this thread cold, especially in a fluff/model/ale powered Space Wolves forum.)

 

This debate needed to happen and was going to happen but I am sorry that it happened in a request for help thread. I freely admit that I was firmly in the 'opposed to sharing our new toy for fluff reasons' camp when this whole discussion started (as people can see by my posts in other related topics), but I have realised over time through the endless debates here and at my GW that the only people I have issues with are the people who are jumping ship to represent their army e.g. Salamanders using the new shiny rules, when they already have a codex with valid fluff and a strong, versatile army lists (SM Codex). But at the end of the day its their money and nobody, not even the loyal Sons of Russ on this brilliant forum, are going to stop them spending it on the new codex and models, and using them how they wish - despite how much we grumble.

 

I will gladly support and help people who come here looking for advice for their fluff driven ideas like the OP, and we should actually be proud that people want to use our new codex for their fluffy ideas as not every codex out there is going to used for 'counts as'. I may be a bit confused and surprised at the start of the game if I'm playing a IH/DIY army using the SW codex but I am a fluff monkey at heart, and if my opponent has some damn good fluff behind the army then I am more likely to have an interesting discussion about it after the game than do something like not play him.

 

At the end of the day, we need to recognise that not all the people posting in the Space Wolves forum over the next few months are going to be using our codex as Space Wolves. Some of them will be in for the long haul after finally finding the codex that supports their DIY fluff and will be battle brothers from star systems other than Fenris for many years to come. I know that we will be inundated with requests for help in a few short weeks and we will get a bit irritated after about the 500th topic, but we have a reputation to uphold as one of the most welcoming forums on the B&C, which I have no doubt we will do. Others will be ship jumpers/power gamers who will disappear after a few months or be chased out of the Fang immediatly by the Blood Claws and our empty ale kegs :huh: . However, there is little we can do to discourage ship jumpers/power gamers from spending their time/money apart from voicing our displeasure here and refusing to game with them in the real world.

 

Debates on issues such as this are great as they allow us to all voice our opinions on a subject which generally gets us all going mentally and one of the many reasons why I enjoy hanging out in the Fang. What needs to stop is the bickering and personal shots that this thread descended into and could happen in future ones. It solves nothing, is unbecoming of the Space Wolves and guests, both young and old, on this forum and does not give a good impression to the new intake who will be coming shortly. Giving them a good impression and welcome means more of them will stay for the long haul and our wolfy influence in this hall may encourage a few of them to shift from DIY to Space Wolves ;) . I have a good feeling that this forum will be the best place to be on the B&C come October and for many months after that.

 

I know we were made stubborn guys (being Space Wolves and all), but we have flogged this horse long enough. Let it lie and lets go have an ale with our new battle brothers.

 

On Topic:

 

Okay, lecture over and you can all wake up now :P

 

Based on my limited fluff knowledge of Iron Hands, these are the units from the codex I think we need to consider:

 

HQ

 

Bjorn (Counts as)

Wolf Priest (Iron Father????)

 

Elites

 

Dred and Ven Dred (No Brainer :P )

Wolf Guard in TDA (Squad Sergeants)

Iron Priest

 

Troops

 

Grey Hunters (I don't think blood claws are going to fit into a IH army)

 

Fast Attack

 

I don't think anything here is going to fit.

 

Heavy Support

 

Everything except Long Fangs, but LF could be included at a stretch. I'll leave that up to you guys.

 

So a list might look like this:

 

HQ

 

Bjorn

Wolf Priest (TDA)

 

Elites

 

8 x Wolf Guard (TDA etc)

Dred

Iron Priest

 

Troops

 

4 x 10 Grey Hunters (No mark of wulfen or wolf banner as I don't think they fit)

 

Heavy Support

 

Land Raider

2 x Vindicator

 

What do you think?

 

If you made it to the end of this marathon post, than have an ale as you have definetly earned it! :D

 

Cheers

 

Thorgrim

[KiltedMarine]

Nicely put, as lectures go. thanks, Thorgrim.

 

As to the list ideas, I would only quibble on two points.

 

In the Fast Attack slot, I think LS squadrons are plenty in keeping with the high-tech feel of the IH. If anybody would have the ability and resources to build a lot of anti-grav vehicles, it would be the IH.

 

And I'd recommend an IP over a WP, personally, but that's just me. Otherwise, it's a solid list.

 

Edited: had overlooked the IP listed in the "Elites" portion of the list.

[Sir Stompalot]

Thank you Thorgrim, that is precisly the list I had in mind.

[Thorgrim Blackwolf]

No worries guys, glad to be of some help.

 

Cheers

 

Thorgrim

[The emperors chosen]

I think Long Fangs could work in the IH version, just say that they are marines with advanced targeting augmentations

The list is good, but what would you give the troops, just straight bolters, bp, ccw?

Decoy- I see what you are saying, I just feel that everyone should be given a chance, sorry if I annoyed/aggravated you.

[Thorgrim Blackwolf]

They would have two special weapons and a special CCW but nothing really wolfy like Mark of the Wulfen as that would not fit.

 

e.g. 2 x Melta Guns and a PF.

 

Cheers

 

Thorgrim

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Since my Dark Angel successors are Codex Marines in robes I can hardly point the finger at someone who wants to make Wolves with bionic limbs.

 

Just don't be making a bionic woman. It'll get cancelled after one season.

[rattman]

As long as its WYSIWYG I dont really care about playing a counts as army.

 

If I have to ask every few minutes what that is then I will just pack up. I know all the people who play spacewolfs in my town, so I give :cuss to anyone who is jumping on the bandwagon