Iron Hands counts as

[Grey Mage]

For those of you whove said you wouldnt play against such a list: I can understand. A number of players out there are not going to take the time to do proper conversions, nor will their lists be well thought out to convey the fluff they say they represent and still be effective- so most will err on the side of power over spirit.

 

That being said I would play against, and give props to, a player who properly made and played an IH army with the SW codex, as I did under the old codex and will under the new one.

 

1) Iron Hands come from a near-feral world of nomads, and their organization is broken up by "Clans" that operate nearly autonomously, coming together only for major events and the occaisionally assist. This is similar in method, if not in size or exact organization, to the SW Great Companies.

 

2) Iron Hands are a First Founding Chapter. At the time of the Horus Heresy and the Great Crusade they would have been armed as Grey Hunters are- with BP, Bolter, and Chainsword- I cant fault an IH player from taking these. Two special weapons also is a common device Ive seen in "Heresy Era" books, and Im told are seen in a number of the HH novels. Sadly I havent read them. Some of you may remember IH players using the old trait that gave them "Ultragrit" and caused the model to have acute senses- wich could just as easily be bionics as they are animal senses to be honest.

 

3) Bionics are well represented by Runic Charms, giving the model a 5+ invulnerable saving throw. TDA seargents are a known component of IH fluff. A Wolf Priest with a PF and Crozius could just as easily be a Iron Father. A well modeled Logain Grimnar could also be an inspring Iron Father- with a combination of Servo-arm and Relicblade attacks and a Rosarius- and properly inspiring at that. The use of Bjeorn Fellhanded should be obvious, though NOT required.

 

4) Long Fangs- Ive heard some complaints that this is a limited number squad of 5 *now 6* models- and I have to ask: whats the problem? So only the heavy weapon squad is combat-squaded. Big deal? Get a life. Split Fire? C:SM can already do that by combat squading their heavy weapon squads into two squads with heavy weapons in each. Nothing is really gained here.

 

5) Unfluffy units. Frankly, if I saw an IH army with Thunderwolf Cavalry, Fenrisian Wolf Packs, or Bloodclaws Id have to give the guy a good ribbing and look at him funny. However just because these units are available doesnt mean they have to be taken. Avoid them, and youll be on my good side. Take them and Ill rub it in when they die.

 

6) Odd units- Namely BCJPs and Scouts- BCJPs are believe are a trade off compared to their codex counterparts- you get more initial assault power but you lose out on staying power. They cost the same- and they have the same number of PF or PW attacks over the course of the first two rounds of assault as the seargent of an AM squad has more attacks base. That SW scouts are BS and WS 4 simply puts them on par with DA scouts, and reflects how most scouts have been for the couple of codices. A better version of outflanking simply makes up for the fact that they are an elites slot instead of a scoring unit.

 

Other notes:

~Inspiring Presence is a wonderfully fluffy nod to the IHs who specificly field Dreadnaughts and TDA to inspire the units around them. This also would explain the higher leadership of a TDA led squad as opposed to a non WG led squad.

 

~Dont take full squads of TDAWG. Please. The IA is pretty clear that IHs have limited numbers of the stuff just like other chapters, and that they field them as a unit only under rare circumstances. A mixed unit of Veterans perhaps, as some will be "bonded" with their armor- but please dont make common use of full squads.

 

~Librarians/Rune Priests. This is one sticking point.... C:SM libbies better represent an IH librarian in my opinion. Please dont try to cover up the fact that they are psychers but saying they have some odd conversion beamer etc etc etc. They are a Librarian and should reflect that in your personal fluff. That being said the powers may be tricky to justify, but then the powers unlocked inside of the twisted mind of a machine worshiping superweapon are probly a bit odd and highly personal anyways.

[Johan Spess]

*grabs the SHOOT HERE sign and waves it for the Mods to see*

 

Damn, this thread started out good but it's just ended up being people bitching and moaning at each other. Some say "no, it's not cool to do IH using SW rules". The others say "Go ahead".

 

Really, I don't give a damn what 99.999999999999999% of you do, since I'll never see that 99.9999999999999% of people in real life. The same goes for most of the forum, so quit acting like a bunch of jackasses and stop flaming.It's not your army so just let it fething be!

 

Regardless, I see this thread dying very soon...

 

:D

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you think this isn't a topic worthy of discussion instead of throwing around pathetic passive-aggressive insults. It's a legitimate question and people began thinking up good ideas as counts-as units. Unless you're a mod in disguise, perhaps you'd like to stop backseat modding and have a seat over there... \_

 

As for avoiding "wolf" units, there's no reason why an appropriate replacement can't be found. Hell, GW likes to add random new models and say "divergent pattern!!!!" all the time. Just make some super fancy techno-bikes and count them as cavalry or something. Have an Iron Hand captain riding on top of a Furby without the outer furry layer, and it could count as Canis Wolfborn! See, it's easy to come up with ideas!

 

Also if you encounter a counts-as army theme at a tournament and refuse to play them upon "moral grounds" does that mean you automatically forfeit the match, because if so that's pretty funny to throw the game over some sort of artificial standards about plastic space mans.

[Ulrickthegrey]

*grabs the SHOOT HERE sign and waves it for the Mods to see*

 

Damn, this thread started out good but it's just ended up being people bitching and moaning at each other. Some say "no, it's not cool to do IH using SW rules". The others say "Go ahead".

 

Really, I don't give a damn what 99.999999999999999% of you do, since I'll never see that 99.9999999999999% of people in real life. The same goes for most of the forum, so quit acting like a bunch of jackasses and stop flaming.It's not your army so just let it fething be!

 

Regardless, I see this thread dying very soon...

 

:lol:

Perhaps you'd like to explain why you think this isn't a topic worthy of discussion instead of throwing around pathetic passive-aggressive insults. It's a legitimate question and people began thinking up good ideas as counts-as units. Unless you're a mod in disguise, perhaps you'd like to stop backseat modding and have a seat over there... \_

 

As for avoiding "wolf" units, there's no reason why an appropriate replacement can't be found. Hell, GW likes to add random new models and say "divergent pattern!!!!" all the time. Just make some super fancy techno-bikes and count them as cavalry or something. Have an Iron Hand captain riding on top of a Furby without the outer furry layer, and it could count as Canis Wolfborn! See, it's easy to come up with ideas!

 

Also if you encounter a counts-as army theme at a tournament and refuse to play them upon "moral grounds" does that mean you automatically forfeit the match, because if so that's pretty funny to throw the game over some sort of artificial standards about plastic space mans.

 

 

You know its funny, you called me a troll, now your trolling, we were asked our opinion and we gave it. Sorry ours isnt yours. As for the tourney question, they would still play, but doc the op, running with his DW or IH army running as SW sportsmen ship, and the tournament organiser will most likely doc Paint, Theme, and Comp.

[Bran Scalphunter]

I saw it as a thrad worthy of discussion early in the thread's life but once people came in and started flaming each other, it lost the merit. If people hadn't begun acting like jackasses, there'd be no problem with it.

 

You say I'm back-seat modding? What I'm doing is trying to keep the thread from completely getting out of control by giving friendly advice. I'm pretty sure that's allowed within the rules of the B&C. If it's not, it ought to be. The only way to keep such a massive forum like this working is to have the people (the members) police themselves as well as being policed by the moderators. If someone sees a bunch of people flaming each other, there's no reason they shouldn't step in and say "Knock it off before you get in trouble", which is what I did. Otherwise the forums just get overloaded by trolls and threads filled with useless posts.

 

I never said anything against using counts-as, but there's no reason people should start trying to act superior to each other over a stupid game.

[Aranan]

There are a lot of words in this thread and it's kind of silly.

 

Basically, if you get your panties in such a twist because I or someone else paints their 2" tall plastic/metal space men in a color that isn't grey-blue, then I wouldn't want to play with you anyway.

[Decoy]

There are a lot of words in this thread and it's kind of silly.

 

Basically, if you get your panties in such a twist because I or someone else paints their 2" tall plastic/metal space men in a color that isn't grey-blue, then I wouldn't want to play with you anyway.

 

Expect this. More than just those on this board, and more than just Wolf players, aren't happy about "Counts as" stuff. Quite a few won't be playing against C-As-ers. Just as it's your decision to make a Wolf army and call them Iron Hands, it's as much their decision not to play you. Both are equally viable, and equally respectable.

 

Not every Wolf is against Counts As, but there are more than a few of us who are. Thankfully, those that are in favor of Counts As are more hospitable, and do the Fang well. Just expect a fair few detractors through almost every army type, probably including other Iron Hands players.

 

Now. The conversation was going well in regards to the question at hand, so why don't we leave panty-twisting and other trolling as a whole out of it, hmm?

 

I'd hate to have the Fang be a No Counts-As place, simply because every thread turns into a brawl when it's brought up. (I lie; I'd LOVE it, but I'm just combative. I'm trying to do the right thing, so to speak.)

[Warhorse47]

If a player tells me, "I want to try wolves out, do you mind if I use counts as?" I have no problem with that. However, if someone is just wanting to play "flavor of the month" then I start getting fed up after a few times.

[WolfLordLars]

I think the first question of the new and improved SW FAQ will be:

 

"Can I play (insert chapter/army/race here) as Space Wolves"

 

The answer?

 

"If you do, Bran gets to come to your store and beat you to death with an axe handle"

 

:D

[Grey Mage]

HEhehehehe hehehehee..... yes. Gud.

 

On a more serious note, I have to admit there are some people I wont play counts-as against. they abuse it, changing what models are or avoid specifying as long as possible, forget to bring a written list or write one down... etc etc.

 

And I hate flavor-of-the-month players.

[Vassakov]

What I said earlier:

 

Ok, I've thought about this quite a bit. Let us consider the following hypothetical scenario.

 

Player A turns up with his Iron Hands Army. He is using C:SW, has 9 Man Grey Hunter units led by TDA Wolf Guard with SB&Power Fist, an Iron Priest and a selection of Servitors. His force is led by a Venerable Dreadnought and has a selection of tanks to round out the support.

 

Player B turns up with his Raven Guard. He has a few Skyclaws, but he also has 3 15 man Blood Claw packs, a squad of Wolf Guard Terminators, 2 LRC's and a Lone Wolf. His army is led by Ragnar and Njal.

 

Having reflected on this matter, I would probably be happily play A. He's used a codex to try and reflect an armies fluff, and whilst I may disagree with the philosophy I can accept that this is a damn sight better than what C:SM can offer.

 

I wouldn't play player B in a pick up game. He hasn't made any real effort to look at the fluff, and the army in no way represents the background. And if he really disagrees with C:SM, C:BA makes a far better option - the DC can represent the mutated experiments and cast offs from Corax's desperate rebuilding following the Drop Site Massacre, for example.

 

My key frustration is that although I've used an extreme example, judging by the chatter on the internet for every player A, there are 9 player B's, who simply have a preconception that trying to shoehorn an existing army/colourscheme/whatever into a SW list will somehow make them a better player, or get them more wins. Personally, not only do I find that slightly insulting as a long term SW player (it implies we have some kind of unfair advantage) but I also think it cheapens the background and mythos of the game overall.

 

If this makes me an elitest... so be it.

[Firenze]

I agree with Vassakov for once. Id even be happy to try to build army A. Iwont ( I have 8 already), but I always love to play a fluffy list. They are fun, and look fantastic. The only problem I see are BCs and TWs. If left out the codex rules could be used for IH. They just dont fit

[Hergrmir]

It's also probably worth pointing out that, unlike the Salamanders, the Imperial Fists, the White Scars, the Raven Guard, or the Ultramarines, the Iron Hands don't actually have a special character that brings alternate Chapter Tactics to the table.

 

But yes, Vassakov's example A is the sort of player I expected we'd have in mind when talking about this - the OP certainly sounds like that. I'd personally play example B, but I'd probably scrutinise them as a player and a person more - ie, all things equal, I'm happy to play against either, but example A would have to try harder than example B to be someone I wouldn't play again.

 

In B's case, given that B is following no background or themes, it would make more sense for B to just have a black-armoured later founding chapter. There's nothing Raven Guard about what B's doing, but there's everything Iron Hands about what A's doing.

 

Of course, mitigating circumstances - if B had started playing Raven Guard since, oh, before Codex: Space Wolves and Codex: Ultramarines back in 2nd. ed. then I could see B getting away with a lot more, or if B was just new to the game entirely.

[Ronin_eX]

As someone doing something that is even more off the wall than the OP I have to say that the Iron Hands sound like a great fit for the Space Wolves codex. Hell you could even have some kind of cyber-construct mount to use as Thunderwolf Cav (think AdMech versions of the Juggernaut and you'd be close, or if you are into Star Wars stuff then something like the Basalisk Droid used as a mount by Mandalorians in Knights of the Old Republic).

 

All told the Iron Hands don't exactly have scads of written background and changing some of it to better fit is the prerogative of the player. I think the Iron Hands have more in common with the Wolves structure than they do with the Codex Astartes.

 

Hell I think it probably would have been better if they had used the SW codex as room for chapters like the White Scars and even the Salamanders (especially in the former case, the SW list does a much better job of representing a mounted and mechanized force as one would usually see fielded by the White Scars).

 

Even the WS/BS 3 of the Blood Claws doesn't seem that odd because it tends to even out in the long term when you take into acount their strength, toughness and how many attacks they get on the charge. Simply explain it as the assault troops being a little more ferocious but less restrained in combat and most will barely even realize that they were meant to represent SW neophytes.

 

The SW list is varied and versatile enough that I really don't get why many players seem to be so protective of its sanctity. Especially in the case of chapters like the Iron Hands who have a total of zero character in the SM codex thus not even partially tying them to any one codex. So to the OP (not that he needs my or anyone else's blessing) I say use the SW codex. Use it with friends, use it at tournaments and use it whenever you want because the idea is a good one and you will be able to make an incredibly fluffy IH list using the SW codex (lead by a dread no less!). The codex is versatile enough that you can choose to leave out BCs and TWs but at the same time good conversions or ideas for them will make them quite usable.

 

Head over to the Dark Angels forum and give my conversion a look see. You may also think of starting an idea thread in the marine forums as the SW ones seem to be rather split on the idea. You'll likely get more feedback and ideas from other Iron Hands players (and if you keep it focused on Iron Hands background and how to fit it to the Space Wolves codex then it wont be in the wrong forum either). Good luck with the idea in any case.

[JCarter]

I'm with rattman. If the figures are geared and organized as a SW army so that WYSIWYG then I don't care what color the figures are painted. It's just SW in a different color scheme. If weapons count as some other weapon and gear as some other gear, then I have objections.