the great beaver Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 okay so today I played two games and in both games the long fangs were very ineffective. I'm running 3 missile launchers and 2 lascannons so that they can get range on high priority targets without small arms and short range fire hitting them back. the first game against guard meant that they were wasting their efforts most of the time against heavy armour while the troops all had stealth and therefore had 3+cover saves and refused to die to frag missiles...2 lascannons were consistently unable to crack armour 14 and without being able to move and shoot they couldn't follow fast moving vehicles around the table.... the second game was against tau and we rolled a dawn of war scenario which meant they walked on the first turn and couldnt shoot. since he had mobile vehicles he just kept them out of LOS of the long fangs for the most part... Without being able to move and shoot they generally have to contend with cover saves against their main targets and can't pick optimal firing situations. 1/3 of the deployment options in regular games means they're hooped for a turn and woe betide those who don't buy a razorback for them (which I didn't). they still lose someone important as soon as they take a wound and they can't hold objectives... sigh... so what are the alternatives for the same role? for the same price as the unit above (170) I can get 2 land speeders multi melta flamer multi melta ass cannon (or rocket launcher thingy) they can reposition...they can get close enough to easily chew through armour and they can take on infantry after the vehicles are destroyed....if they come on through dawn of war or if I hold them in reserve (which isn't even an option for the long fangs worth thinking about) they are awesomely effective and get right into the killing for 170pts I can take a whirlwind and have 90odd points left over to take a min unit of scouts or I can take a land speeder and a whirlwind... I'd like your opinions on what the long fangs are doing in a 1500pt army and how to make them viable through weapons options, transports or army support without have to spend buckets of points on a 6 man unit. thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillen Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Indeed brother. Which is why you never see them in a winning tourny list for Space Wolves. We have always used Grey Hunter asnd blood claw packs and won the war through troops with a couple of tanks backing them up. Tanks last longer and use to cost less for about the same fire power. Now Long Fangs are cheaper , but they are still foot slogging slow pokes. And a good player will kill them or stay out of sight of them. That is and always will be the problem with long fangs. I was realy hoping old price but they would have the move and shoot ability. Oh well. Mine will look pretty and probly still stay in the box. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2114785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 *shrugs* I intend to run 5, with four missile launchers in a basic Razorback for cover and a bit of anti-horde help. Dreadnaughts will be my big tank hunters... with a bit of help from squad and character based meltaguns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2114859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokeiSHP Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I posted this on the other thread but I will say the same here. My vision of LFs is that their primary mission should be to handle soft targets and light to medium armor. SW have a huge number of other options that can more effectively handle heavy armor. The all heavy bolter squad: 15 HB shots, 18 if you include a Razorback with them. Sure, they aren't shooting anything down besides a Landspeeder (though thats enough fire to glance a Rhino to death), but its a wave of fire against any infantry targets. Anyone who has stood in the line of fire from Tau double dakka knows that this is going to hurt most troop armies and this squad is relatively cheap for what it does. The all missile launcher squad: Bane of transports and infantry everywhere. Strong enough to knock out those pesky chimeras, with the flexibilty to inflict maximum wound. MEQ squads caught out in the open will also suffer highly. So, how would you handle heavy armor you ask? Wolf Scouts have always been among my favorite choices along with melta toting Grey hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2114888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Oi... dont forget your Venerable Dreadnaughts.... march right at them, if the Lascannon/Assaultcannon/Autocannon/Multimelta hasnt killed by the time you get there you can always just punch it in the face. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2114905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanger Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Don't think that Long Fangs are a good unit to give anti-tank weapons to. I think Heavy Bolters are the only good option for them. With HBs they are rather cheap and with the amount of shots they can put out they force enough saves to kill some models. If you want some more felxibility, then Missile Launchers would be the way to go, so you can threaten light transport reliably. They have still only 1 (or 2 if you attach a WG) ablative wounds, so once they start to take return fire they start to drop like flies. For anti-tank duty I would rather take dreads, terminators and meltas in GH squads. Maybe a Predator or Land Speeders with multi-meltas if you like them. But if you plan on playing an agressive CC force (as it looks that will be the way to go) then LFs are not a really good choice as they are rather static and once the CC units hit the enemy they become borderline useless (as they aren't a troop choice so they can't even hold the home objective). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2114933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Hengist Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 A Lascannon should be targetting AV12 max to get the most out of it, use them to pop transports and light armour out in the open. Trying to pop Av14 with it is too much of a risk of bouncing and wasting the shot, leave that for the Meltas. (Doesn't Help if everything is AV14 though) I reckon the effective Long Fang set up is going to be Heavybolters all around and a HB Razorback. 18 shots, Str 5, Ap4 36" range will keep non MEQ foot slogging troops honest. All that comes in at 155 points according to rumours, they will be making it into my lists I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2114955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the great beaver Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 I think I'm starting to agree with you guys...perhaps I'll get these guys to focus on transports and other soft targets like tau suits and stuff like that... I think I may try and fit a razorback into army and plunk them down beside a grey hunter unit on an objective for maximum defensive strategy. that or I'll drop them and toss in the land speeders for maximum maneuverability which is how I play anyways :P I posted this at about the same time as the other "long fangs and tanks thread" can a mod delete this post and merge the topics? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2115426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the great beaver Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 so just last night I played 2 games and stuck the long fangs on the second and third floor of a building in my deployment zone in both games... in the first game they did alright...didn't kill their points back but came close and kept him hugging terrain with his transports. in the second game we bumped up the game size so I could afford the alternative 2 landspeeders with multimelta's and flamer/asscan. the landspeeders did so much more damage than the long fangs. the long fangs killed a razorback and 2 marines. the land speeders killed 7 marines, a dreadnaught, a drop pod, and a land raider. 12 inche moving multi melta's are amazing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2117646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zark Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Save your heavy support for Whirlwinds and land raiders. If you do get some thunderwolves then save one fast attack for speeders. My long fang setup will be 2 hvy bolters and 2 plasmacannons. Resonable anti infantry with light vehicle harrastment. If your opponent has many anti MEQ things then use a rhino and fire 2 of the 4 hvy weapons a turn. Better yet, just use 3 long fangs and choose 2 hvy weapons to fire out of the rhino. Having the rhino stunned and shaken will be a bummer though. Zark Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2118180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpriest Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 With my army i have used long fangs, even 2 squads in the army. They are cheap they are awesome. The problem that i have is that we are a close combat army, meaning we are in your face all the time. This doesn't work well when combined with long fangs, because in my current list i am running 4 rhinos and 3 drop pods, so the long fangs rarely ever get any line of sight. That being said the best thing that i have found to pop tanks is dreadnoughts with multimeltas in drop pods. I have found that one dreadnought in your opponents face with a multi melta gets killed quickly, but 2 well usually one will live through their return fire. So to get 2 first turn you have to bring 3 pods. The third pod gets a grey hunter squad with 2 flamers to grab a late game objective. Also we can now give a wolf tooth necklace to dreadnoughts, oh yeah. That means they always hit on 3's in hand to hand and wound on 2's. Pop a tank and then tie up and eventually kill a unit. all for right around 150pts. Cheaper then a long fang squad and they draw a lot of fire so that is a turn that the opponent isn't shooting at the rhinos that are coming up right behind them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2118204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 long fangs are great for area denial. in any configuration they will make your opponent chose where he puts things wisely. because many a brave soul has thought that his av14 front armor leman russ would be able to withstand the withering fire of 4 lascannons and ended up nothing more than smouldering wreckage. transports fear lascannons and your opponent wont be as agressive in terms of charging balls out with his transports if there are a squad or two of dug in long fangs packing some serious heat waiting for him to drive into the open. 2 full strength lascannon long fangs squads can put 10 las shots spread among four targets, wich can make for a very bad day if they are running av11 rhino's..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2118394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demogerg Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Lascannon vs AV14 100% you shoot 66.6% you hit ~11% you pen AV 14 ~3.7% you wreck/explode AV 14 Lascannons are not the ideal weapon to shoot at AV 14, for their price they are an anti light tank or anti heavy infantry gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2118414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I've always run a squad of 5 with Lascannons, and a squad of 5 with Missile Launchers, with a third Gating squad with Meltas. I've never left a tank alive on the board at the end of any game, ever. In the end, it comes down to luck, and in 5th Edition, tanks are even harder to kill. If you ask me, Meltabombs and Thunderhammers may be the way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2118417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harald sternmark Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 The all heavy bolter squad: 15 HB shots, 18 if you include a Razorback with them. Sure, they aren't shooting anything down besides a Landspeeder (though thats enough fire to glance a Rhino to death), but its a wave of fire against any infantry targets. Anyone who has stood in the line of fire from Tau double dakka knows that this is going to hurt most troop armies and this squad is relatively cheap for what it does. i think that there is one of the best uses for long fangs..that is my usual weapon load-out for them..especially with the razorback..then you can swap out the razorback weapon for more flexibility.. my usual opponents field orks...lotsa the green buggers..nothing cuts those buggers down to size quicker :rolleyes: plus i have to be biased towards long-fangs now as the models you can make with the awesome new kit will "actually" look like long-fangs i would usually get the grey hunters with 2 meltas or wolf scouts to deal with heavy armour Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178774-long-fangs-vs-other-options/#findComment-2118507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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