LPetersson Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 First of all, yes I saw this post bit got railroaded too far away from the topic so I thought I'd better start a new thread. Logan Grimnar's 'Great Wolf' rule says: Wolf Guard units count as Troops in an army that includes Logan Grimnar It doesn't say that they may be taken as troops, so I read that as WG units being scoring, but we can still only take the 3 units the our elite slots allow us and we still need to take 2-6 troop choices. In light of this, I think I'll be using fewer Wolf Guard than ever before (When they could be chosen as a retinue)... Your thoughts? Edited for rubbish spelling and clarity! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Disagree, mate. There's a massive argument on Warseer saying the same thing, and explaining it better than I ever could. I think it's... anywhere between page 130-150? Maybe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpsilver Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I highly doubt they will count as troops and not be scoring. It defeats the object of having an all terminator army. Although the wording is a bit dodgy. It really should say something along the lines of 'Allows Wolfguard to be taken as troops who are scoring' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Disagree, mate. There's a massive argument on Warseer saying the same thing, and explaining it better than I ever could. I think it's... anywhere between page 130-150? Maybe? I don't suppose you have a link to that? I don't use Warseer and a brief glance didn't reveal the thread... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 I highly doubt they will count as troops and not be scoring. It defeats the object of having an all terminator army. Although the wording is a bit dodgy. It really should say something along the lines of 'Allows Wolfguard to be taken as troops who are scoring' Well, no, they count as troops exactly to make them scoring, but I don't read it as being able to take them as troops. And yes, that is what the rule should've said :/ Dark Angel's Deathwing rules says that termies are *chosen as* not *count as* which is why I interpret the rules in this manner. I only know of the Deathwing rules that allow an all tda army. Which others are there? Also, Tyranid Warrior rules say that they may be *taken* as other FOC slots. 'Count as' is different from 'chosen as' or 'taken as' hence my sad puppy eyes over this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 If they can't be taken as Troops, then the rule would use the Kantor wording of making WG scoring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 You are right, the wording is not easy. Here it is: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...60&page=144 If we go back to the meaning of the words and grammatical form then that interpretation is not strictly correct. 'Count as troops' means that they are not troops but act as if they are. If they were troops it would have to say 'are troops'. So they are not troops but enjoy the same benefits under the rules, ie they count as scoring units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 If that's the case I'm going to laugh at everyone who buys the dex for a pure TDA army and gets hit in the face, considering my main use of termies will be apocalypse I'm not too frustrated either way. I have a cruel sense of humour Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 And Korsarro Khan as well say *taken as*... The more I'm reading the new codex, the more I wish we had been left alone for another 10 years. So much of my army has in one fell swoop become useless... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambowang Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Haven't seen the new codex yet so I'm shooting this out a bit in the dark. Wolfguard as a troop choice great, but do they still limit the number your allowed as in the last codex. Still 20 Wolfguard in terminator armour makes a formidable force. Using the points values of old you wouldn't have much left for anything else. As for having to redesign your army because of the new codex, looks like my Sons of Russ will be into there 3rd Codex configuration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Haven't seen the new codex yet so I'm shooting this out a bit in the dark. Wolfguard as a troop choice great, but do they still limit the number your allowed as in the last codex. Still 20 Wolfguard in terminator armour makes a formidable force. Using the points values of old you wouldn't have much left for anything else. As for having to redesign your army because of the new codex, looks like my Sons of Russ will be into there 3rd Codex configuration. 0-20 is gone for better or worse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 If you 'Count as' a Troop choice, what slot on the FoC do you occupy? If it's not Troop, then you're not 'counting as' a Troop choice. If you're only scoring, you can still be Elite and Score, just like Sternguard with Kantor. The only way to 'count as' a Troop choice, is to ustilise the same rules. Scoring, FoC slots, etc. What you might want to argue here is if you can take more than 3 of them. If the Wolfguard occupy both an Elite Slot, and a Troop slot, at the same time... (And in conjunction, whether you can take any more elites, if you have three suqads of 'count as' WG.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Danvers Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Seems pretty simple to me: If it's a 'counts as' rule it means that they will count as troops in game, therefore can claim objectives. Much like Kantor's Sternguard units in C:SM; they don't change FOC slot, but become scoring units. If it's a 'taken as' rule it means that they can occupy a Troops choice in the FOC in place of the other choices in the book and they will also be able to claim objectives. Therefore can be attached to either slots in the FOC chart: much like fex's and dreads with a MoTF as a HQ. The difference is that one allows you to take 6 WG squads and one doesn't. I've read the new book from front to back but I can't remember what The Great Wolf rule does off the top of my head. Judging by what's on the Warseer thread (again will need double checking) it's a 'counts as' rule, so we don't get Troop choice TDAs to pick. They simply can claim objectives as well as GH and BC squads, just like Kantor's rule for Sternguard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 They simply can claim objectives as well as GH and BC squads, just like Kantor's rule for Sternguard. But consider how long ago the 5e C:SM came out, hasn't it only been a little over a year? They wouldn't change the wording that significantly. In fact Pedro's rule simply says that Sternguards count as scoring units, there is no 'counts as' anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalver Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 If we go back to the meaning of the words and grammatical form then that interpretation is not strictly correct. 'Count as troops' means that they are not troops but act as if they are. If they were troops it would have to say 'are troops'. So they are not troops but enjoy the same benefits under the rules, ie they count as scoring units. No, "count as" means when you count them they are troops. So when you count your units for your force allocation you count each wolf guard unit as a troops unit. When you count your scoring units you count each wolf guard unit as if it was a troops unit. "Count as" does not mean "acts like" which is what you are trying to argue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergrmir Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Yeah, the whole 'well, Belial and Khan say X and Logan says Y' thing falls apart, because Logan doesn't say Y, Kantor says Y. Logan says Z. What we're getting into isn't some inane grammatical point, despite what Warseer thinks. It's an inane ontological point about how much troopness counting-as Troops bestows upon a unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Seems pretty simple to me: If it's a 'counts as' rule it means that they will count as troops in game, therefore can claim objectives. Much like Kantor's Sternguard units in C:SM; they don't change FOC slot, but become scoring units. If it's a 'taken as' rule it means that they can occupy a Troops choice in the FOC in place of the other choices in the book and they will also be able to claim objectives. Therefore can be attached to either slots in the FOC chart: much like fex's and dreads with a MoTF as a HQ. The difference is that one allows you to take 6 WG squads and one doesn't. I've read the new book from front to back but I can't remember what The Great Wolf rule does off the top of my head. Judging by what's on the Warseer thread (again will need double checking) it's a 'counts as' rule, so we don't get Troop choice TDAs to pick. They simply can claim objectives as well as GH and BC squads, just like Kantor's rule for Sternguard. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems with GW rules... Considering... with the new edition we have several examples... The BRB says only units taken from the troops allowancemay ever be scoring units. (p90) and there are sometimes trrops that cannot score. Then C:SM says that with a Space Marine Captain on a bike, bike squads of at least 5 models may be taken as troop choices.(p.132) This folows the rule from the BRB, making bike squads Troop FOC and Scoring... Also in C:SM Pedro Kantor has a special rule. Hold the Line that says that your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units. This BREAKS the rule from the BRB that says only Troop FOC can score, as it does not state that the Veterans are troop choices. There are no examples in the C:IG. And Now we have.. C:SW - For Logan it says : Wolf Guard units count as troops in any army that includes Logan. In the true Spirit of GW this is a completely different wording than either of the two divergent examples from C:SM. If we are to believe that that change is intentional... and that it means something else. Then the only logical conclusion is this.. Wolf Guard units are now TROOP Choices for FOC and Scoring, and you DO NOT have the option to take them as Elite Choices. So you can take 6 wolfguard units, all as troop and non as elites. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 That's exactly what it means, if the book is written in English, which is the general assumption: Wolf Guard will always occupy Troops choices instead of Elites. It does make an all-TDA army difficult to accomplish, but not impossible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Using Deathwing Fluff with SW rules.. 4 HQ in TDA... 60 Terminators... 3 Venerable Dreads.. 4 Landraiders ================== Using DW rules.. 2 HQ in TDA 45 Terminators 3 Landraiders ================== SW rules work better IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 GW has said in their product catalog that Logan Grimnar allows you to field an all-terminator army. So "counts as" = "taken as." Any other position is the worst kind of rules lawyering. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'll just use common sense here and that says if they count as troops they are troops, secondly they are an infantry type so they can score. Pretty silly debating about this its very clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 I'll just use common sense here and that says if they count as troops they are troops, secondly they are an infantry type so they can score. Pretty silly debating about this its very clear. Well, what you see as clear in one way, others see as clear in other ways. Same with common sense. I see it as common sense that GW wouldn't change the wording for something as important as this a mere year after C:SM came out... I see it as clear that you take WG as elite choices and in the game they count as troops. GW has said in their product catalog that Logan Grimnar allows you to field an all-terminator army. So "counts as" = "taken as." Any other position is the worst kind of rules lawyering. Do product catalogues suddenly count as rulebooks? I'd like to see you use that as an argument in a rules thread. I know this sounds adversarial, but I don't think it can be included in a rules discussion if it isn't in a current rulebook or codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 GW has said in their product catalog that Logan Grimnar allows you to field an all-terminator army. So "counts as" = "taken as." Any other position is the worst kind of rules lawyering. Do product catalogues suddenly count as rulebooks? I'd like to see you use that as an argument in a rules thread. I know this sounds adversarial, but I don't think it can be included in a rules discussion if it isn't in a current rulebook or codex. It's not a rule book. But considering it's produced/written by the same guys who wrote the rule book and codices I would assume that what they say in their own tongue in the catalogue is what they were trying to convey with the language used in the rule book and codices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMoon Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 i think its pretty simple really. kantor's rule says they "count as scoring" so still only have 3 squads of them. i think if logens rull says "counts as troops" they they count as troops instead of elite. maybe its cause im from the south and we just like things simple and that seems pretty simple to me lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Someone may have covered this, but I will say it again if they have. If I remember correctly people have said that fenris wolves can't be scoring units, which would mean even when taken as troops they can't score. THAT would imply that the norm is indeed 'count as' troops count as scoring units. I fully realize GW has a habbit of ambiguous rules and rulings most of the time, but I still have my doubts that they would be THAT obtuse on the matter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178861-space-wolf-tda-army/#findComment-2116641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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