Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 The Pre-Heresy Legions are each typified by there own particular speciality. The Space Wolves an World Eaters were the assault specialists. Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists were the siege masters. And so on... My question then is this... Would Legions like the Fists or Iron Warriors have assault formations? Would the World Eaters or Wolves have long ranged units like Devastators? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
traitor_dice Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 yes. even though they specialise in one field, they would not, and potentially could not entirely ignore another because there would be inevitably situations where they would need such formations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2116509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Would Legions like the Fists or Iron Warriors have assault formations? Assault formations are a vital part of siege warfare, the BIG guns are used to make a hole in the enemies defenses so the assault troops can go in and do their job - thats why submachineguns, flamethrowers and shotguns were invented/adopted during the trench fighting of the first world war, and its why the Heresy era Astartes siege list in WD126 required one Assault platoon for every Tactical or Devastator platoon fielded. /rant Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2116901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Would Legions like the Fists or Iron Warriors have assault formations? Assault formations are a vital part of siege warfare, the BIG guns are used to make a hole in the enemies defenses so the assault troops can go in and do their job - thats why submachineguns, flamethrowers and shotguns were invented/adopted during the trench fighting of the first world war, and its why the Heresy era Astartes siege list in WD126 required one Assault platoon for every Tactical or Devastator platoon fielded. /rant DO you ever re-read something you've written later and think... Duh!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2116952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 DO you ever re-read something you've written later and think... Duh!!! All the time, but usually people have noticed already so I have no choice but to slink away and hide for a few weeks :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2116961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Lacerus Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Thought the Blood Angels and the World Eaters were the assault specialists. Well I guess the Wolves are assault oriented too. Hmm... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2117756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Thought the Blood Angels and the World Eaters were the assault specialists. Well I guess the Wolves are assault oriented too. Hmm... During the Heresy I don't know if the Blood Angels had the same assault orientation that they now possess, whereas there has never been anything subtle about the Wolves of Russ or the World Eaters! *prepares to mauled/clawed or chainaxed!* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2117763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Blood Angels were assault specialists as well, its mentioned in either the Blood Angels or World Eaters IA that Horus would make sure to let each know of the others exploits so as to goad them to try and do better. (random factoid, the aforementioned siege/ground assault list in WD126 was actually the Blood Angels list, Space Wolves were a drop pod assault force) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2117888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argon Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Would the World Eaters or Wolves have long ranged units like Devastators? The Wolves call them Long Fangs. They have plenty. The World Eaters would probably have them at the beginning of the Great Crusade, when they had less emphisis on berzerker charges and were more tactically flexible, but as time went onwards they would have had fielded less and less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2118146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Thanks for that point about Horus creating the sense of competition between the WE and BA Vodonius, was going to point that one out myself! As has been said, the Legions were much, much larger than current chapters and fulfilled a role far beyond the 'knife-point' assaults of 41st millenium marine chapters which are limited to such a role precisely because they do not have the manpower. Imagine for instance the open warfare of Ullanor, with several marine legions employed in open warfare against a massive orc empire. Depending on which source you credit, there could have been anything from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of marines taking part (we know at least that the entire Luna Wolves legion was involved there). Can you imagine the sight of such a thing? It must have been amazing ;) As for the troops themselves involved, I can imagine it would have gone beyond even the configurations of marines found in current chapters, with not only the classic tactical/assault/devestator squads, but include other more radical concepts: Special weapon squads, artillery units, garrions, recon marines, legion specific units (rampagers, berserkers etc.) - the list goes on. Regarding the World Eaters specifically, as has been pointed out by Argon, once Angron was discovered and took over control of the legion, more and more units received the neural implants turning them into berserkers. But this took some time, and happened relatively late in the Crusade, so theres plenty of scope to create a force earlier in the crusade which had a wider breadth of character than just the "assault lol" of the heresy itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2118437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergrmir Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Interesting to think about though, Legion specialisation. Makes sense too, if you consider both the IW and the IF - the former having Berserkers in their 3.5 list to represent their breakthrough specialists and the latter spawning the Black Templars. Salamanders and Death Guard both would have the stoic infantry defense in depth thing going, likely choosing a grinding and methodical broad advance on the offense. I could see them having extensive artillery experience, and a solid engineering corps - maybe not to the heights that the Fists and Warriors reached when it came to fortifications and mining, but certainly when it comes to trenchlaying, bridgework, and the like. Corax and Alpharius probably had somewhat similar methodology, while both would constantly be prepared for a plan B through X with further contingency plans. I'm not sure I'd think of the Space Wolves as so far apart though - wolves aren't like charging rhinos, they're pretty cunning beings. The Wolves would certainly be up for in your face boot planting, but I think they'd try and get there at least somewhat tactically. I'd see both the Blood Angels and World Eaters during the Crusade being the closest to what Space Marines are supposed to do 'now', being shock assaults. But that would include massing heavy firepower at the point of contact at least. I'm not really convinced that the World Eaters really failed at being well rounded until after the Khornate madness kicked in. After all, Angron would have had to be a little more stable before the Emperor, with all his total lack of wisdom, was a horrible dad and ripped him from his people. I'd think the gladiatorial implants would tip rage into lunacy, rather than cause bloodfrenzy just by themselves. Emperor's Children and Iron Hands both share an ethos of striving for perfection, though I don't know how'd that to translate into tactical preferences. For all the flak Guilliman gets about being a nitpicking accountant, Horus didn't get to be Warmaster due to his failure at logistics - I'm sure that he'd also have to be pretty good at uber-micro, so I could see the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines both being very similar - very finely drilled with a doctrine of versatility and a mild preference for set piece battles. Part of the reason I say Horus would have to be a good logistician rather than just an inspiration or a diplomat is that if the Emperor wanted either of the latter, he'd have picked Sanguinius and none other. But Sanguinius was probably too otherworldly for rolling up his sleeves and diving into ammunition requisition form 76.1.12b, bolt pistol, mark iv, short. Much as I love uinnecessary parallelism in fiction though, I can't come up with convincing similarities between other traitor/loyalist pairs, so I'll stop there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2120539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Emperor's Children and Iron Hands both share an ethos of striving for perfection, though I don't know how'd that to translate into tactical preferences. With regards to the Emperors Children, tactically speaking I think their striving for perfection (as evidenced in certain passages of Fulgrim) lead to the perfect application of tactics for any given situation. For example: A strike a points A and B will fracture an enemy force and allow smaller formations to destroy those fractured componenets. Very basic I know, but I like to think it illustrates my point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2120809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 WE still had devastators post-heresy called teeth of Khorne so I'm guessing they had devastators pre-heresy as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2120922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starblayde Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Emperor's Children and Iron Hands both share an ethos of striving for perfection, though I don't know how'd that to translate into tactical preferences. With regards to the Emperors Children, tactically speaking I think their striving for perfection (as evidenced in certain passages of Fulgrim) lead to the perfect application of tactics for any given situation. EC aimed to make a perfect art out of war making. In the HH books the 'perfection' appeared to be 'running straight at the enemy with your sword', but was actually a lot of move & fire, feint, support and superior strategy all to ultimately end up with sword meeting xenos. The Iron Hands had somewhat of a different idea about perfection, hehe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2120948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Interesting to think about though, Legion specialisation. Makes sense too, if you consider both the IW and the IF - the former having Berserkers in their 3.5 list to represent their breakthrough specialists and the latter spawning the Black Templars. Salamanders and Death Guard both would have the stoic infantry defense in depth thing going, likely choosing a grinding and methodical broad advance on the offense. I could see them having extensive artillery experience, and a solid engineering corps - maybe not to the heights that the Fists and Warriors reached when it came to fortifications and mining, but certainly when it comes to trenchlaying, bridgework, and the like. Corax and Alpharius probably had somewhat similar methodology, while both would constantly be prepared for a plan B through X with further contingency plans. I'm not sure I'd think of the Space Wolves as so far apart though - wolves aren't like charging rhinos, they're pretty cunning beings. The Wolves would certainly be up for in your face boot planting, but I think they'd try and get there at least somewhat tactically. I'd see both the Blood Angels and World Eaters during the Crusade being the closest to what Space Marines are supposed to do 'now', being shock assaults. But that would include massing heavy firepower at the point of contact at least. I'm not really convinced that the World Eaters really failed at being well rounded until after the Khornate madness kicked in. After all, Angron would have had to be a little more stable before the Emperor, with all his total lack of wisdom, was a horrible dad and ripped him from his people. I'd think the gladiatorial implants would tip rage into lunacy, rather than cause bloodfrenzy just by themselves. Emperor's Children and Iron Hands both share an ethos of striving for perfection, though I don't know how'd that to translate into tactical preferences. For all the flak Guilliman gets about being a nitpicking accountant, Horus didn't get to be Warmaster due to his failure at logistics - I'm sure that he'd also have to be pretty good at uber-micro, so I could see the Luna Wolves and Ultramarines both being very similar - very finely drilled with a doctrine of versatility and a mild preference for set piece battles. Part of the reason I say Horus would have to be a good logistician rather than just an inspiration or a diplomat is that if the Emperor wanted either of the latter, he'd have picked Sanguinius and none other. But Sanguinius was probably too otherworldly for rolling up his sleeves and diving into ammunition requisition form 76.1.12b, bolt pistol, mark iv, short. Much as I love uinnecessary parallelism in fiction though, I can't come up with convincing similarities between other traitor/loyalist pairs, so I'll stop there. From what Ive read, the Luna Wolves specialty was teleport assaults meant to destroy the command structure of their opponents as seen at Ullanor. Though the Ultramarines did attempt the same against the Alpha Legion, didn't work out too well did it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2121002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 From what Ive read, the Luna Wolves specialty was teleport assaults meant to destroy the command structure of their opponents as seen at Ullanor. Though the Ultramarines did attempt the same against the Alpha Legion, didn't work out too well did it... Actually IIRC it wasn't just the use of teleport assaults, it was any form of assault althouh their speciality was as you say cutting the head off to slay the body. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178888-legion-formations-and-specialties/#findComment-2121155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.