Competitive Analysis of the New Book

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Well, we've all seen the codex now, and I think it's safe to say it's not as broken as a lot of us expected. I would put it lower-mid tier unless someone finds something yummy, maybe mid to upper mid if they do. Hilarious, the Eldar are becoming a worse and worse matchup for some armies, and this is no exception.

 

Core:

Grey Hunters. AMAZING for the cost. The annoying changes to transport capacity hurt them a little, but still very solid. Can't really make a list without 2-3 units of these guys.

Skyclaws: Just made Blood Claws obsolete, because for 3 points you can make them fly. Troops shmoops, you've got Grey Hunters for that, Blood Claws are for killing stuff with. I think a list built around Skyclaws and either transported screens or Drop Pods could work.

Thunderwolf Cavalry: Same idea as the Skyclaws, except more bang in a smaller box. An undercosted, high attack output unit (5 ATTACKS!) that has some issues with getting eaten by plasma fire. Honestly, I think one of the top competitive lists for SW will involve hiding these behind land raiders.

Wolf Guard Terminators: Loganwing armies. They're going to happen, and honestly, I think they're going to suck. Too many points for too little mobility. Could be interesting if you load up on land raiders.

 

Tech:

Speeders: Good tech vs tanks as usual. We lost attack bikes, this is the replacement. Competes with thunderwolf cav and skyclaws, though

Wolf Guard PA: Load of combi-weapons = good tech vs targets of choice, be they light inf, heavy inf/bikes, or big stuff. Don't forget the storm bolters: they can give light inf as much or more of a headache than combi-flamers can.

Scouts: Anti-gunline tech. Honestly I'm moving them from core to here in the new list as they're less reliable. Still think I'll be bringing them, though. We also do get the option of sniper/missile or sniper/HB squads if we want them...but why would we, really?

Dread Drops: Always a good option, especially against infantry heavy lists. Not that we have a lot of trouble with those.

Swiftclaw Bikers: Tougher than skyclaws, same damage output. Fast, cheap even with melta bombs. Great squad, but skyclaws are just SO much cheaper. Good when you need some bulk that isn't a land raider.

Heavy Tanks: I would put ALL the heavy tanks in the tech category, as they're all situational and all pretty good in this edition. Dakkapreds are mostly a waste, though: we need long range boom.

Long Fangs: Anti-tank tech again, and they take up a HS slot.

Wolf Packs: I'm moving away from core for these and saying they're tech for when we need more bodies.

 

Janky:

Lone Wolf. Elites choices are at a huge premium, as much or more than before. A guy with 2 attacks, who can't jump, can't ride a bike, and can't infiltrate? Pfffft. Waste of a slot.

 

Iron Priest: Not junk, but I'd still call him iffy. He can bring a pretty solid combat squad with him now, though, with some 3 attack cyberwolves and some power fisting thralls to go with his own hammer attacks. It's actually not a bad assaulty unit, but I think you can do better. The heavy weapons options just slow down the beats, if you're going to take gun thralls, take something else instead.

 

Blood Claws: +1 attack on the charge for -1 WS, -1 BS, can't shoot close targets unless they have a WG, fewer special weapons unless they go all the way to 15. Too many drawbacks for GHs, who now cost the same instead of a LOT more. Then you look at the skyclaws, and my point is made.

 

Predator Annihilators: We invented it...then we made it suck because it costs WAY too many points.

 

Let's add our HQs and characters to the list while we're at it:

 

Core:

Wolf Lord: point for point this guy got WAY better than the WGBL this edition, since the WGBL lost a WS and an Attack as well as the wound. Keep his equipment reaosnably cheap: as soon as you get into the realm of special characters, take one. Also, a WL on a thunderwolf is kinda questionable because of Canis. A WL with JUST the wolf and the wolf claws is the same cost. I think the only time you take a wolf and not Canis is if you want to throw around some S9 thunder hammer love (note: characters on the t-wolves only get S9 because it's a bonus, t-wolf riders do get s10 right now). Personally I think my ideal WL equipment hasn't changed yet: frost blade, bolt pistol, power armour, and I might add Saga of the Warrior Born, but that gets us into (at least for those who don't want Warrior Born thunder hammer guys)...

 

Ragnar Blackmane: Yes. YES. YEEEESSS! My god is this guy destructive, he's our answer to Dante and I like it. Admittedly he's expensive: you can get a lord with Warrior Born and decent equipment for about two thirds of his cost. He also gives a BUNCH of nice bonuses to his squad, and STILL has what you really need: a frost blade and Saga of the Warrior Born, but even more attacks to fuel it.

 

Rune Priest: Oh god yes. VERY nice powers, though there are some junky ones. Ignore thunderclap, it's unplayably bad. Murderous Hurricane vs Tempest's Wrath really depends what you're trying to do. MH makes terrain dangerous for EVERYONE. That includes huge squads of Ork boyz that probably won't like the pile of hits either. If they move, they lose 1/6 of what's left with no save. Living Lightning is a super autocannon, Storm Caller is still nice. Fury of the Wolf Spirits is nowhere near as good as it needs to be to get picked over those powers. What you REALLY want to buy a rune priest for is doing what other units can't do: create dangerous terrain, and remove things from the game with the awesome Jaws of the World Wolf. Therefore I say the core power combination is either TW/MH, and JotWW. If you're taking extra priests, more of the above and/or Storm Caller and Living Lightning are good powers to have, but those are much more specialized tech. I think Tempest's Wrath is GREAT anti-Eldar tech, which is something I think we need.

 

Tech:

 

WGBL: Saga of the Hunter. Only reason to really take this guy over a Wolf Lord unless you're strapped for the points. Problem is, he has to Outflank on foot or on a Thunderwolf. My advice? Thunderwolf mount, Saga of the Hunter. Mark of the Wolfen is an option, but really isn't worth the 15 points, you already rend if you want it. Weaponwise, you really have three good options here: Frost Blade, Thunder Hammer/Pfist, Nothing. Storm Shield isn't a bad choice either. Everything else is chaff. Slap yourself if you don't buy melta bombs, and the Fenrisian Wolves aren't a bad choice either. Warrior Born is probably overkill but an outflanking maniac who can kill off an entire unit with S6 frost blade swings IS pretty epic. Might want this guy moved up to core.

 

Wolf Priest: I don't like him. 2 base attacks, can't take a thunderwolf for more punch...he's really there to make a hurricane of attacks better with Preferred Enemy...which is weaker than the regular Chaplain. At least he gets WS5. Don't bother giving him anything fancy, take him straight up or give him a Jump Pack/Bike so he can join the appropriate unit, and send him in. The rest is trash.

 

Logan: He's the core of two things: the Loganwing army (yay terminators!) and Loganfangs (yay Relentless drop podding multi-meltas!). Good combos, take both if you use him. I don't think he's THAT good, but he's definitely worth messing with. Hardly an auto-include.

 

Njal: expensive but amazing. But expensive. Costs more than a land raider. All I can really say: if you want to spare the points to actually tool up a rune priest, take this guy. Otherwise leave him.

 

Janky:

 

Bjorn: 13 front armour and a 5+ save isn't THAT great, and he's EXPENSIVE. He also can't pod down. In objective games he could be some janky tech of killing himself to give you a safe objective to hold, and contesting the others.

 

Junk:

 

Ulrik: Too expensive for a wolf priest on foot with a few minor powers.

 

List Ideas:

Three big ones.

- Thunder Raiders: Land Raiders running cover for Thunder Wolf Riders. Take 2-3 raiders full of GH, 2-3 thunderwolf packs. I think standard raiders are mostly the way to go here, but a Crusader isn't bad to have around. Skip the Redeemer. Keep the T-wolves cheap, and your HQ as well: hunter WGBL and/or JotWW/TW priest.

- Drop Pod Assault: We know how this works, and honestly? It got a lot worse in the new book. We don't have triple asscan termi squads anymore! Still, it's mostly a bunch of GH and WG in drop pods, often with Logan and multi-melta long fangs. OBEL scouts and hunter WGBLs can help.

- Rhino Rush: It's rhinos. It's grey hunters. It's in your face! Really, that's the entirety of the list. Thunder wolf riders can be useful again, as can hunter WGBLs and OBEL scouts. You can probably spam skyclaws a bit here too, and just saturate the board with fast moving threats.

[Massaen]

I could not disagree more about the lone wolf.

 

For only 2 more points then a wolf guard you get a great stat line for starters. Spend another GH in points to give him MotW and leave him to it. Cheap, dangerous and expendable. Your enemy has to target him and with EW & FnP he is a tough nut to boot.

 

Yes he is an elite choice but given the expense of the HQ and Elite - unless your playing 1850 or more, 3 elites plus the needed scoring units is tough. At 1500 he brings a cheap, HQ level model that has a good threat rating. Buy your long fangs a razor back, load him up and charge!

[Grimmwulf]

Overall a nice rundown, although HQ choices are and Special characters are left out. I also agree with Massaen on the Lone Wolf.

 

And i personally do not like skyclaws. They might not be actually bad but when compared to regular assault marines the regulars are better and that kind of bothers me. I really don't think the headstrong rule should have needet to keep you from shooting wenemys within 6". I would take assault marines that can shoot before assaulting anytime over an additional attack on the charge with WS3. They got the same big problem that bloodclaws have. When they don't crush a unit on the charge they are going to die. They just dont have a real punch anymore after the turn they charged because they now can't have as many fists as before. And WS 3 makes a huge difference when standing against a still 20 or so strong ork mob after a bad round of CC.

 

It makes me sad but i thing my Bloodclaws will be promoted to Grey Hunters soon. Well, they deserved it after so many death or glory attacks out of their trusted old Crusader ;)

[Quillen]

Speeders: Good tech vs tanks as usual. We lost attack bikes, this is the replacement.- Uuum no, we have attack bikes and we can now put them with the bike squad as well, so you can have 10 blood claws on bikes with an attack bike and a WGPL on a bike if you want. This is a killer load out.

 

Grey Hunters is where it's always been in a tourny list. Maybe a pack of Blood claws in a LRC. I too had the do or die pack of Blood claws and in the local campaign they had all the assualt stuff. They won every fight.

 

 

As to the LR being 10 for carry, the local GW manager thinks it's an honest screw up and will be ficed with a FAQ or something.

[Baluc]

I Agree a lot with the OP, he's right about lone wolves but for the wrong reasons.They can be extremely cheap, twin wolf claws with be enough to down a few, despite this. They compete against Dreads/V.Dreads, LD9 Counter attack and OBEL.

 

In Apoc I'll have about 5, but when I need my slots I need one of each of those other units, the same can be said for Iron Priest.

 

On Sky claws vrs Swift claws, I'm currently banking on this unit

 

5 Sky claws Its 130 points

Power fist, Mark of the Wolfen

 

Gives 12 S4 attacks, 3 S8 attacks, and d6+2 rending attacks on the charge. Their biggest advantage over bikes is that they can fit almost anywhere being that they're 5 models, you could actually reach combat without giving you opponent a chance to shoot them. Know thats a perfect world, when you can't hide them, you can use them as a target to overwhelm your opponent without losing a huge investment.

 

The Balancing factor for Thunder wolf cav in a GW environment at least is the cost of getting the models. You could have 19 Thunder wolf mounted models its is going to cost you $950 Canadian to do however. I can see them being very much like blood knights you're probably going to see a unit of 3 around until people wise up on killing them, after that they'll be dropped for more GH in Rhinos.

 

After Grey Hunters, Long Fangs have to be the best unit in the book. They like Skyclaws are ridiculously cheap

 

5 with 2 Hb and 2 Lascannons are 135 points and I plan on just having them sit beside 2 plasma toting Grey hunters on my objective. That being said, they way this book has been designed, I don't really see it being a objective grabbing army. I can very much see it as I can get the objective later once your dead type game.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Okay, I will answer these one by one.

 

Lone Wolf: You have a point, if you have an open elites slot he's not terrible, but he still has little way to GET to the enemy reliably. Only good in footsloggers and footsloggers aren't that good, especially if you're buying single doods and not huge masses of GH. I'm sure someone will find some crazy use for him, but I'm leaving him in the janky pile.

 

Skyclaws: Yes, assault marines are better. Skyclaws are CHEAP, and they are almost as good on the second turn as regular assault marines. Admittedly the WS difference isn't good, when it doubt, send more men. These guys are cheap enough that you can just throw huge squads around.

 

Attack Bikes: No. No no no. We have crappy BS3 attack bikes attached to bike packs that won't do anything to tanks. The major purpose of attack bikes (to slip around and melta tanks) is largely gone. You CAN use swiftclaws like that, but it's a waste of their output.

 

Lone Wolf again: You basically said the same thing as I did, why are my reasons "wrong"? His abilities aren't worth an Elites slot. That's exactly what you said. Admittedly they could be cool in Apoc.

 

d6+3 rending attacks on the charge. MotW doesn't give you d6 base attacks, it gives you d6+1.

 

The 5 skyclaw assassin unit is a good one because they're dirt cheap. I think to some degree you underestimate the utility of the extra bodies, but I won't knock the 5-man unit either. They're both solid, which is why I put Skyclaws in core: they're cheap, effective jump packers.

 

Balancing by cost is stupid because players like myself will find ways around it. I for one play with human beings in a local gaming club, so I'm just going to find better-costed, appropriately-sized models, and in fact end up using them for two different games, using magnets to add/remove the riders. I agree that small units of them with no support are useless. I think if you're running T-Wolves you want around 10, and you want at least two land raiders to run them behind, maybe three. Honestly, an army composed of t-wolves and 3 units of GH in land raiders is scary enough, no? Back it up with a pod or two and some OBEL if you have points.

 

I disagree on long fangs because despite how cheap they are, we don't NEED heavy bolters, and the Lascannons are still pricey. Admittedly so is every heavy weapon in the book, but I am not moving them up to core until we start seeing what matchups they really help. If anyone wants to start talking about that, let's have it!

 

My ideas on matchups:

 

Daemons - This could be pretty rough, but it's not THAT bad. The big guys might give us some trouble, but we can bring some big guys too. The Great Unclean One is almost reason enough to tech a cheap Rune Priest with the erase button into this list, since it's the best tarpit in the game. That said, I think t-wolves will do as good a job of erasing it in one turn with so bloody many S5 rending attacks. Daemons have trouble with land raiders, which I advocate in a t-wolf raider list. You can always use an RP for a cheap solo HQ.

 

IG - Believe it or not they really don't like land raiders that much, and tend to implode when they see anything that looks like three of them. If you're NOT spamming land raiders, you probably either podding down and hosing them with bolter fire, or coming in with more rhinos and jump infantry than they want to see on a given day. Whatever you're going to spam, spam it. This really applies to most lists in 40k but the IG matchup is the most important here: give them more than than they can handle. As for First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, yes it hurts like hell, but remember: if you're drop podding you get the first shot.

 

CSM - Plague Marines, Obliterators, ick. Khorne Berserkers not so much, we bench press those guys for training. We're more resistant to Lash than most armies because of the RPs. Another good reason to make the solo HQ a rune priest if you go that way, and Plague Marines REALLY don't like getting RFGed right through all their saves. If you can't do that, send in the Thunderwolves to rend the crap out of them. Honestly, we have a lot of answers to Chaos and I don't think this is a scary matchup for a good SW list at all.

 

Eldar - Ew. You're going to need the long range anti-tank to take out skimmers, and Tempest's Wrath is your friend (I keep coming back to that rune priest, don't I?). The good news is, like against every other army, they can't really HURT you that badly. If you're running land raiders, throw those lascannons, multi-meltas, and asscans downrange at whatever has a bright lance/prism cannon. Those hurt you. Nothing else really does. In KP missions, play the same denial game they do. Brick up, guard your thunder wolves, wait for them to make a mistake and take out a unit for it. If you're running pods, this is going to be hell for you: their reserves will largely come in after your pods. Brick up and use the pods to keep them from tank shocking you off objectives. In a KP mission, hide and wait for your opportunity to strike at them. You kinda have to play their game in this matchup, if you know it well enough, Eldar are retardedly easy to beat.

 

Marines: See IG but less on the heavy weapons, and a bit more ability to hit you back at short range. Honestly, I wouldn't be that afraid of these guys if you're running the land raider/t-wolf list. Get stuck in and make them die, a couple squads of wolf riders will eat their army in short order. If you're running rhino GH spam, just get up in their grills, you're better than they are in assault, don't be afraid to charge. Characters help a lot here. Drop pods? See rhinos but you're already in range. If they're drop podding, you either have mobility or pods of your own, the strategy is similar. If it's pod vs pod, try to isolate an objective from them, claim it, and contest the rest. If it's KPs, blow up their drop pods! Free points!

 

DH: Nothing here to say except this: JotWW DOES NOT HAVE A TARGET. Only things that negate powers that "would effect", etc work. Otherwise this is an easy matchup, you're just better than their guys. Go beat them up. They might have some Guard stuff to deal with so act accordingly.

 

Tau: Smashy Smashy. This is where your OBEL if you have it, and hunter WGBL on a wolf come in handy. If you DID give the latter the frost blade/warrior born combo, this is where he becomes a literal unstoppable force. Melt tanks, kill suits/fire warriors, basically anything within 18" of a table edge dies. Rune Priest is useful here for Tempest's Wrath, jetpacks really don't like it. JotWW can kill broadsides but isn't that important here. If you're in raiders, expect them to be popped, but remember: 2-3 GH is all you need to wipe a fire warrior squad, or one thunder wolf rider. Pick your targets appropriately. If they're in transports, remember your t-wolves can run them down! So good. In drop pods, just pick your points so he can't tank shock you off of the objectives without destroying a couple pods first, and take out fire warriors. Rhinos: see Land Raiders, you have too many targets to keep SOMETHING from hitting him, and he'll be afraid of your OBEL, Hunter Wolf, etc.

 

Tyranids: The big question is: big guys or little guys? Little guys means genestealers and lots of them, and they're better than you in CC. Well, better than most of you. Thunderwolves WILL beat them, but it's not nice. You're probably going to want to shoot them with SOMETHING, at the very least GH bolter fire. Crusaders are useful, so are whirlwinds and vindicators. Big bugs: this is where you can do a lot of stuff with JotWW, LR lascannons, drop podding meltas, whatever. Nidzilla should not scare you. Take out any objective claimers and ONLY care about the bugs that are threatening to contest ONE of your chosen objectives. Ignore everything else, at least until turn 4-5, which we usually call the "bonus round" in this matchup, because everything relevant on his side is dead.

 

Dark Eldar: Ick. This isn't as good as it looks, folks. Wyches are a nasty, nasty tarpit, warp beasts are like mini t-wolves, and their HQ is better than ours. That said it's all riding 10/10/10 open topped transports. BLOW THEM UP. Shoot JotWW at the Archon: 1/6 to RFG him is worth it, and unless they have a Talos everything else is I5+ anyway. If he's dead, incubi can be mopped up decently by thunder wolves, characters, whatever. Try to avoid that fight though. Land Raider lists: stay inside, take out dark lances ASAP, and do a little dance: they have crap all that can hurt you in your big armoured shell. Supporting thunderwolf riders should actually run and hide, at least from the marauding Archon who will rip them to bits. If he DOES get his big HQ in your face, either bait him into a prolonged combat somehow or charge him with EVERYTHING. 3 squads of grey hunters and 10+ thunderwolves WILL kill it. In drop pods, you have the edge here: you can come in where you need to, pop transports at your leisure, and use your superior short ranged shooting to make mince out of a few units. He CAN'T tank shock you off in most cases (I think there's an upgrade) but use your pods to block objectives anyway. In rhinos, you have enough men to not worry about much: you can just gang up on wyches, and bait his uber HQ.

 

Orks: This army was BUILT to murder orks, honestly. Three lists to worry about: double nob bikers, foot horde, battlewagons. The latter two may have one unit of nob bikers. Against bikers: land raiders and t-wolves want to push forward and get the charge: honestly, there's very little in an ork army that can stop wolf riders aside from the bosses. If you DO end up in a fight with the boss, remember he's an IC: you can allocate attacks to him. Kill him before the s10 rips your wolf riders, you totally have enough attacks there to do it. Your GH are mostly objective holders and cleanup hitters, and your land raider guns should be popping vehicles if you have las, and sweeping boyz if you have anything else. Drop Pods have a harder time, as you don't have thunderwolves to overpower the bikers in assault. You probably DO have terminators, and maybe Logan with some Long Fangs. Shoot the boyz, bait the bikers and contest their objectives. Block with Drop Pods, etc: if you play well he can't table you, and you can eke out a 1-0. Rhino Rushers can use thunderwolves here to beat up bikers, or just mob them with bolter fire and GH assaults. They aren't THAT nasty, and they ARE expensive.

Against huge mobs: thunder! thunder! thunderwolves! Seriously...is there ANYTHING orks have that can stand up to a t-wolf pack assaulting them? You can probably wipe an entire mob on the charge, and the counterassault doesn't scare you one bit. Just try not to get shot up by the bazillion shootas. If you're drop podding down, you can just HAMMER them with huge amounts of bolter fire when you land, thinning most of their mobs out enough that their assaults and return fire don't scare you that much. Drop your best anti-infantry stuff at the beginning, out of counter-charge range of their dreads: you can pop those with melta squads on later turns. In rhinos, hope you have t-wolf backup, or long fangs, or SOMETHING that can get into range to shoot some of them down. This is probably the rhino list's worst matchup. Oh, Warrior Born characters help here, big time.

Against Battlewagons: Land Raider lists smile at this. Giant tank fight! Oh wait...our tanks are better. Las and multi-melta the hell out of them, they can't stand against you. Thunderwolves mop up or assault any leftover vehicles: their rear armour sucks, and hey, maybe you gave a couple meltabombs. Drop Pod lists have a hard time placing their pods, but usually have a lot of melta. A few flamers and a lot of bolter fire will mop up the infantry just fine, this is eadier than pure foot for this list. Rhinos: See drop pods, but harder because you can't place your attacks as well. Thunderwolves are handy, as are long fangs and outflankers. Hell, just get in there and melta his stuff, then shoot it with whatever else you've got! His tanks are expensive.

 

As for lootas...there isn't much you can do about them except hit them with nasty outflanking OBEL stuff, or just shoot them back with template death.

 

Witch Hunters: Not a bad matchup, they can't really pop land raiders at range, just watch out for melta. Thunderwolves should as usual hide behind the raiders until they get close, then raise hell nine times over. Even going invulnerable won't save them. Also, snipe as many sources of faith with JotWW as you can. That priest sure seems handy. Drop Pods and Rhinos have to worry less about the meltas but more about the exorcists, especially rhinos. Remember, they're squishy, try to blow them up early. Not a bad matchup at all.

 

Necrons: I saved this for last because it's usually a big debate over where they are on the tier list...here though, there really isn't. This matchup goes something like "omnomnomnomnomnomnom". Thunderwolves and Skyclaws love the taste of Necron, apparently. Get stuck in, kill them. Throw your big weapons against their destroyers. You all know how to fight Necrons with the old codex, you have the same matchup except you got some nastier stuff.

 

I don't think I gave the Rhino list enough credit here. Someone flesh out the plan further, maybe? Skyclaw assassin packs, or swiftclaws, OR SOMETHING would help me figure it out.

[Massaen]

WGBL: Saga of the Hunter. Only reason to really take this guy over a Wolf Lord unless you're strapped for the points. Problem is, he has to Outflank on foot or on a Thunderwolf. My advice? Thunderwolf mount,

 

This is illegal...

[littlbitz]

I'm not buying in on the BloodClaws being obsolete, or the Wolfpriest being useless.

 

I have been practicing games using a unit of BloodClaws with a stock Wolfpriest with great success.

 

I think the waroath is better than litanies. a Chaplains Litanies only work on the charge our pref. enemy rule works all the time, usually you take this for anti-infantry.

 

I think the Wolfpriest is going to be the best of the under used units in the new Codex.

 

The thing about the BloodClaws is they don't need the upgrades to be good. A pack of 8 in a Rhino is way cheaper than a kitted out Grey Hunter pack. So, even though they are even on a model per model basis the end result is always a cheaper unit.

 

The one thing I like about them over Sky Claws is that standard Bloodclaws are scoring, this is a big plus for me.

 

For manueverability I will use Bikers over Sky Claws most of the time, they are cheaper now, have a Bolt Pistol and a CCW frag, Krak and the whole unit can have MBs. the additional point of toughness doesn't hurt either. Attach a WG and an independent Character and you have a very killy unit.

 

Land Raiders are good, real good. In fact I have been toying with a list that has FOUR of them in 1850, very doable, and very potent.

 

Over-all nice overview. Just some differing opinions on a few units. Most of which is due to play style.

[Massaen]

The thing about the BloodClaws is they don't need the upgrades to be good. A pack of 8 in a Rhino is way cheaper than a kitted out Grey Hunter pack. So, even though they are even on a model per model basis the end result is always a cheaper unit.

 

Not too sure how you come to this... they are identical points - even the upgrades!

 

I will also point out - 10 grey hunters have EXACTLY the same amount of attacks as blood claws...

 

at 6" or less...

 

GH - 1 BP shot and 3ATT in combat

BC - 0 BP shots and 4 ATT in combat

 

The fact the GH hits on 3+ with this BP shot is much better then 1 extra attack. It reduces your enemy numbers even if their I is higher!

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

WGBL: Saga of the Hunter. Only reason to really take this guy over a Wolf Lord unless you're strapped for the points. Problem is, he has to Outflank on foot or on a Thunderwolf. My advice? Thunderwolf mount,

 

This is illegal...

 

Aha, it's currently bugged. It's allowed in the options but not in the description of the power. We'll see where it goes but I'm guessing this is a holdover from a previous version, given that this codex has artifacts from two editions ago in places (Land Raider). Wait for the finished book (I think in GWspeak that's "another edition") or FAQ.

[littlbitz]

Like I said Massaen, its a matter of Playstyle.

 

My GreyHunter packs are always kitted out for full effect because I feel they need to be for thier in game mission.

 

My BloodClaws however do not need all the extra kit.

 

My Fully kitted out GH pack is coming in at well over 200 points, with thier Wolfguard leader they are close to 300

 

My BloodClaws just have a Flamer, and a Powerweapon, even with thier ride they are only 170 points. I attach my Wolfpriest.

With the IC attached they too can fire, now they are shooting thier pistols, and charging with 4 attacks and getting a re-roll, and they are fearless.

 

Sure I can attach the Wolfpriest to the GreyHunters, but this will be much more expensive because of thier Battlefield role in my army. I don't typically just throw GreyHunters into a fray without real good cause, but the BloodClaws, being cheaper because of less kit (not cheaper kit) come out to be just the thing for the job they do.

 

Besides with the Wolfpriest attached, the Greyhunters will get thier shots, then charge and get 3 attacks each, rerolling these.

The BloodClaws get thier shots because of the Wolfpriest, and get 4 attacks on the charge and get to reroll those!

Sure in the long run the Greyhunters will win out, but wont the BloodClaws hit harder initially against certain enemies?

 

The difference in the shooting phase is minimal since we are talking about some pistols (I think the Greyhunters do like 3 wounds with 9 shots vs. the BloodClaws at 2.25 wounds), but all other things equal, the Greyhunters will Get 27 attacks, rerolling misses, so if half hit, and then with the rerolls, you get I guess a total of 20.25 hits. Which is about 10 Wounds?

The BloodClaws will get 27 hits out of 36 attacks, so will end up with a little over 13 wounds.

 

The Greyhunters are better in many, many roles, I am not going to dispute that. (I've been a GreyHunter fan for a loooong time) I'm just saying we shouldn't discount a good BloodClaws unit in certain armies. (Mine for 1 will use a pack with a Wolfpriest)

[Ragnars Claw]

What do you give your Grey Hunters to make them over 200 points?

 

I agree the wolf priest is great. I am trying him out on a bike with a unit of bikers.

 

Jump packers got better, and viable, but then they gave the bikers a points reduction, 2 ccw, frag and krak. So bikers are still better imho.

[littlbitz]

I have been running two packs Ragnar's Claw, the first has 10 Greyhunters with 2x Plasmaguns,a Power Weapon, a Plasma pistol, Mark of Wulfen and a Standard for 215 points. I also have a Wolfguard Pack leader attached with TDA, a Chainfist and an Assualt Cannon he is another 78 points.

the second pack has 10 Greyhunters with 2x Meltaguns, a Plasma pistol, a Power weapon, Mark of Wulfen and a Standard and comes in at 210 points. This pack also has a Wolfguard Pack leader attached with TDA, a Chainfist, and an Assault Cannon for 78 points.

[Mantinel]

You can have 2 assault cannons if you take 10 Wolf Guards and split them up. Otherwise it's illegal.

[twistinthunder]

considering the rule says "count as troops" no-one will be playing against me with a loganwing army because its not game legal.

[Lord Rao]

Loving this thread, guys.

Been some time since I was this psyked over any list, and a strongly opinionated rundown of the units is just what I was craving. "We bench press those [Khorne Berserkers] for training" has got to be one of the most butch, OTT, balls-out, AMOG phrases I''ve heard in a looong time. And I go to a nasty gym. :D Keep it up!

 

Rok, I agree with you on all the Thunderwolf counts, but until I (or we) find a way of getting models in any realistic, affordable fashion, I'm not going to include any of them. Sad but true. (This will prolly become a major issue on all the conversion fora in the near future, I suspect).

 

I also love my Skyclaws. The fact that they can now include a Wulfen just makes it a must-have unit, simply from a model and fluff p.o.v.

 

FYI: Gonna try out a small (1000pts-ish) list against footslogger Ork tomorrow - the only armour he has is two trukks and a single killa kan. Prolly field loads of pods and a large unit of Skyclaws. And an RP, ofc. And I might even give that disputed Lone Wolf a twirl. Will let you know how it went.

 

 

LR out.

[littlbitz]

I have ten Wolfguard in my Army Mantinel, I was only showing how I ran my GH packs, not the whole army.

[grahamulot]

I tend to agree that mass grey hunters is an effective build for tournament play. If it is YOUR style. But I am far from convinced its the only way to build a good list around this army. And while this is the sure fire way of winning I believe it is UP to us to find out ALL the competitive loadouts of this army. I mean, isnt this the reason these forums exist? So that we can all come together with our different areas of expertise and experiences? With that said let me put a few notes out there.

 

Wolf priests are by far the most underrated HQ we have. Stick them with Bloodclaws and its trouble for everyone. Hell put them with termies in a LRC and you have one terrifying, fearless re-rolling hits monster of doom and woe.

 

People Love JoftWW as a psyker power , but every power has a use with the Space Wolves army. Mine has Living lightning and murderous hurricane

 

Lone wolves are just awesome, throw a SS on the boy and let him eat, if you don't have more important things being shot at, then that in itself is a victory. Its all about how the list works together.

 

Fenrisian wolves and thunderwolf cavalry have yet to be truly tested and I think they will be a viable option heck for 15 points you could give 8 point models Ld 7 and Initiative 5

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Can we PLEASE get back on topic? This stuff is fine and dandy but you're not really giving any matchup data when you tell me how you arm your GH packs.

 

Lord Rao: Let me know how it goes, especially the LW.

 

Once I'm done with these pikemen and knights for Swords for Hire, then maybe some skirmishers, then I think I'll get started on thunderwolves (not sure where I'm getting the wolves, will probably buy one of the new infantry boxes for guys) and scratchbuilding 3 land raiders (because I can). Once that's done I'll start testing that list.

[Gentlemanloser]

DH: Nothing here to say except this: JotWW DOES NOT HAVE A TARGET. Only things that negate powers that "would effect", etc work. Otherwise this is an easy matchup, you're just better than their guys. Go beat them up. They might have some Guard stuff to deal with so act accordingly.

 

While you're correct the Aegis suit would have no effect on JotWW, you're missing out the three other Psychic defences that will be employed versus JotWW (becuase no one is going to like facing it).

 

1: Unlimited Range Psychic Hood

2: 4+ Save from Unguents of Warding (faily cheap in cost too, currently used to stime the Lash)

3: The ultimate, a Null Rod. Used to make Harlequins cry, I can see the Null Rod used if people start having troubles with Drop Podding Rune Priests.

 

Either Mystics to shoot the RP as he comes in, or a cheap Inquisitor attached to a squad with a Null Rod.

 

The good part here is that any Imperial Army can ally in a Inquisitor, if they need the added Psychic defense. Just like using one with Mystics when facing an all Drop Pod army or Chaos Daemons.

[White Hunter]

personally I think that I will use 10 GH in Rhinos with 2x meltas, a power weapon and mark of the wulfen. This is a great all purpose unit for cheap.

 

1. You can do a drive-by on a vehicle with the meltas, and then next turn rapid fire the unit inside next turn.

2. You can roll up on exposed infantry, rapid fire them, and then use counter attack and and all those rending attacks and power weapon attacks to finish it off.

3. You use them as a consolidating/cleaner forces (killhammer) mopping up your WG's leftovers

4. You could just put them on an objective use the Rhino to block LOS and hold ground against just about anything (especially if supported with some High strength weapons)

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Rune Priest stuff:

1. Yup

2. Undefined in the core rules whether this works or not. Because it is a save I would say it falls under the same answer as the runic staff, old psychic hood, and wolf tail talismans, which looks like no.

3. if they want to, they can.

 

Re: White Hunter's GH squad, yes, this is going to be the standard GH squad. It's relatively obvious that this, occasionally mixed with 2 flamers instead of 2 meltas, will be standardized upon.

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Besides with the Wolfpriest attached, the Greyhunters will get thier shots, then charge and get 3 attacks each, rerolling these.

The BloodClaws get thier shots because of the Wolfpriest, and get 4 attacks on the charge and get to reroll those!

Sure in the long run the Greyhunters will win out, but wont the BloodClaws hit harder initially against certain enemies?

 

The difference in the shooting phase is minimal since we are talking about some pistols (I think the Greyhunters do like 3 wounds with 9 shots vs. the BloodClaws at 2.25 wounds), but all other things equal, the Greyhunters will Get 27 attacks, rerolling misses, so if half hit, and then with the rerolls, you get I guess a total of 20.25 hits. Which is about 10 Wounds?

The BloodClaws will get 27 hits out of 36 attacks, so will end up with a little over 13 wounds.

 

Why are you getting all these rerolls to hit? I thought preferred enemy gave hit on 3+?

[Askari]

In 5th preferred lets you re-roll instead of hit on a 3+. Much better.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

Well, looks like I won't be testing for another three weeks or so, legal/political issues at the university that are going to provide me with a crapton of extra work. I'm also starting to think that even with screening land raiders (or rhinos to provide cover) t-wolves might be too fragile without storm shields, which imo makes them a bit too expensive, given that you can buy 3 blood claw bikers for the same cost.