Lord Rao Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Played against Orks today with the new dex, and had an absolute blast! In short: I won. We played 1000pts. In order to not do an etire recap of the battle (that would take too long), here are some insights I gained: He had 20 sluggas, 15 (or so) shootas, 12 Nobz (trukk), Warboss+11 sluggas (trukk), big mek with force field, and a Kan. I had WL in TDA, 4 termies incl 1 asscan, 1 Arjac, 10 Skyclaws+MotW+PF, 10 GH incl MotW and PF and 2x flamers, 1 Lone Wolf+MotW, and 1 Rune Priest (nilla) with FotWW and MH (just like Rok advised). It's an illegal list, and I was over points, but we had decided to try new things out so it was okay. Skyclaws are horrendously powerful. I teamed my unit of 10+MotW+PF with a Wolf Priest and let them roll (and re-roll). The only thing that could stop them in their tracks was the unit of Nobz+Warboss+Painboy, and I always struggle against those - they once stopped off my combined Wych and Archon/Incubi assault with taking only 3 Wounds. Indication: of the 32 normal BC attacks, only 2 actually Wounded (i.e. 1 dead Nob). It's for use against this unit that I take the PF - having a potential 3 instant kills on those Nobz is invaluable. I believe the WP is by far the most important char to attach here. You simply need those rerolls. WPs also (like chaplains) come with all th gear they'll ever need, meaning one with a Jump pack is only 125pts. Even so, in spite of all my best efforts, the Nobz just soaked up the attack, and two rounds of melee later and my BCs ha ddied out to a man (to the WP, to be exact). Like in our last dex, they need to win the combat decisively and roll onto another target to stay in the game for long; otherwise they just get eaten up soooo quickly. The Lone Wolf performed admirably, as he can be too much of a pain to ignore, so your opponent WILL divert forces to destroy him. I gave mine the simple MotW (35pts total, which is a steal), and basically used him as a speed bump. In the end it meant that the assaults of the Nobz and the Sluggaboys in their trukks were staggered, meaning I could take them on one at a time with my GH and BC. If they had attacked simultaneously, my apponent and I agreed afterward, I would have lost the battle. Thtat said, he's probably only worth it in small battles, as in larger games you'll have enough points left over after your mandatory Troops choices to really go to town on your Elites choices, and then a single guy for a whole slot is probably not worth it. For smaller games, though, he is just what you need. GH are rock hard in his edition. The extra attack due to gear really helps. Arjac is solid gold. I'm not sure i he's worth those 188pts, but he was easily the best tank-killer in my army (range 12, BS5), and he single-handedly took out the killa kan during shooting (which was very important, as it meant the termie unit could assault another unit than the kan). You don't easily get that kind of ranged AT ability on a normal char of the same pts. And don't forget that Arjac gets to use that same weapon - his TH - in close combat just as easily - just try that with a combi-melta... Having TDA + SS + 2W + Saga o/t Bear also means that he simply won't die. I'd happily take this guy over a similarly equipped WGBL, as he is just so versatile and durable. Excellent stuff. I loved the MotW upgrades in my units. They really give your casual units a big boost in melee, and imho clearly outperform the other PF we used to have - in most circumstances (read: except against Nobz). The RP performed okay-ish, but was offed on the third turn due to a lucky waaagh run assault and some misjudgement on my part. FotWW is (of course) great at sniping, but unfortunately his Sluggaboy Nob rolled well and survived. On the whole, against this Ork army, MH was far superior. It's absolutely gold against weakly armoured horde armies - it stopped off his entire unit of sluggas for one turn, meaning they played no real further part in the game, until I decided to assault them with the termie unit and kick their ass. It would have been even more instrumental if I'd kept my RP farther back, allowing him to cast some more. Also, JotWW has NO effect on vehicles/walkers, whilst MH does. Conclusion: MH is ace, JotWW can be good (like against nidzilla lists), but is less versatile. Well, it's turned into a long post anyway. Hope it was fun to read and helps you out a bit for your own games. LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2118729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 (range 12, BS5), and he single-handedly took out the killa kan during shooting (which was very important, as it meant the termie unit could assault another unit than the kan). Isn't the Ranged attack range 6"? How did you assault another unit? Arjac isn't an IC, so the whole squad should only have been able to assault the same unit they shot at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2118931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coverfire Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I have noticed that Lukas the Trickster was not mentioned at all. I know nothing of this guy and would like to hear what he has to offer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I haven't the complete dex, and I remember it being 12". I could be wrong. I was easily within 6", though, which is why I decided to do it anyway. I was allowed to charge another unit as I wiped out the first one in the shooting phase. Maybe that's not conform RAW (don't have rulebook here at work), but it's how we play it. I am not a huge fan of the Loki char. He is quite a jammy dude, and I dislike him for much the same reasons as I do Van Horstman's speculum and similar items in WFB. He's the perfect character killer, and it doesn't take any skill to have this rule take effect. Kinda lame, if you ask me. The fact that he takes your own models out just as well as the enemy is something else I don't like. It means you HAVE to start fidgeting with model distances, and that is something everyone in our game group hates, as it's slow and quite boring. But there might be tonnes of ways to use him effectively that I haven't thought of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (range 12, BS5), and he single-handedly took out the killa kan during shooting (which was very important, as it meant the termie unit could assault another unit than the kan). Isn't the Ranged attack range 6"? How did you assault another unit? Arjac isn't an IC, so the whole squad should only have been able to assault the same unit they shot at. It is ranged 6". And he couldn't have assaulted another unit if he made the shooting attack at the Kan. Fails all round in the rules comprehension stakes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Sama, reading comprehension isn't a strong point of yours, I'm guessing. "I was allowed to charge another unit as I wiped out the first one in the shooting phase. Maybe that's not conform RAQ, but it's how we play it." Houserule. And as stated, he was within 6" when he used the shot, a clear explanation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I comprehended that you typed Arjac has a range of 12". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 So, yes, that'd be a "Reading comprehension issue". Hehe. Well done, Rao. Don't let the nitpickers bring you down out of Codex-Jealousy. Well won. Good on you teaching those ugly Greenskins how to do it right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Guys, thx for the comments and the (undoubtedly) well-meant feedback. :) Off Topic: In terms of the reasoning behind the house rule (though I suspect it will mean sweet F all to other players who've already made up their mind in terms of ruling), we've always thought it quite ridiculous to be unable to assault another unit after completely vaping a first unit. I understand you have to shoot at one target and, IF THERE'S STILL ANYTHING LEFT, charge it if you want to assault that turn, but surely every soldier will find something more wortwhile to do than simply stand around doing nothing after unequivocally trouncing an enemy unit with gunfire? EDIT: Oh, and we both had a blast playing yesterday. That must surely pwn all. Anyway, let's hear some more on tactical opinions/experiences with our new dex! LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thing is (and I'm in way intending this to be personal) house rules taint the usefulness or anaylsis of stuff. You might find a new unit/rule excellent, due to how it works in conjunciton with your house rules. While others might not find them as good. As for Lukas, the more I read of him, the more I dilsike him. Both his special rules can't be ued until the rest of the Squad is dead, and he's the only one left. Kind of a crappy Cloak that is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 house rules taint the usefulness or anaylsis of stuff. You might find a new unit/rule excellent, due to how it works in conjunciton with your house rules. While others might not find them as good. You have point, and I agree. No offense taken at all. However, I was careful in ensuring that my point was never to show how good Arjac was at killing a unit and then assaulting something else; it was at showing how good he is at killing tanks. Period. The fact that he then charged something else has no bearing on that assessment. So my tactical evaluation still stands. One may, of course, disagree with it, but please do so for the right reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I've only had a quick glance at the Codex, so am hanging on threads like this. :) I'm mainly hoping I've not missed things lke Arjak giving his unit the ability to assault a different unit after shooting. That sort of stuff. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Guys, thx for the comments and the (undoubtedly) well-meant feedback. :cuss Off Topic: In terms of the reasoning behind the house rule (though I suspect it will mean sweet F all to other players who've already made up their mind in terms of ruling), we've always thought it quite ridiculous to be unable to assault another unit after completely vaping a first unit. I understand you have to shoot at one target and, IF THERE'S STILL ANYTHING LEFT, charge it if you want to assault that turn, but surely every soldier will find something more wortwhile to do than simply stand around doing nothing after unequivocally trouncing an enemy unit with gunfire? EDIT: Oh, and we both had a blast playing yesterday. That must surely pwn all. Anyway, let's hear some more on tactical opinions/experiences with our new dex! LR To give the rules mechanic some sort of footing in 'reality' (a term which doesn't have much place in the discussion of rules in 40k!) when a unit shoots and assaults, it is assumed that they shoot as they are charging in. If the target they are shooting at suddenly blows up into pieces or dies, you'd be sort of stuf running and screaming at a smoking/bloody mess, unable to change direction quick enough on to a new target. Of course, we all no reality has no place in in game rules, but that might at least give u some sort of reasoning behind it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Reasoning: Not all actions take place at the same time. The shooting is done as the squad is moving up, repositioning themselves to a more assault-based position based on overall enemy presence. If firing is effective in wiping out the targetted enemy squad, objectives change, resulting in a more physical confrontation elsewhere, on a different, secondary target. Such are the ways of war. I kind of like this house rule, and I may implement it with my local group. My Dark Eldar pal is sick of getting his twenty-man Wyches shot to hell after killing off my Long Fangs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrim Blackwolf Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I'll put my 2 pence in as I have had a few test games against IG and codex marines with the new codex. Grey Hunters: Not much more to add that everybody has already said. However, I feel that Mark the Wulfen is going to become a default upgrade for all units except IC's and Wolf Guard, as its ability to tip the balance of an assault has allowed my GH's to win combats they might well have drawn or lost. The default load out of a PW, MofW, 2 x Flamers/Meltas has proven very flexible in the games I played in and will make up the bulk of my army list. Long Fangs: These guys gave the IG player fits as I took three full packs in a 1500pt game (All HB, All ML and All LC) as a test, and nothing managed to make it within 24" of my objective in Capture and Control. The Long Fangs managed to destroy most of the Chimera's coming towards my objective/footslogging troops and pound the forces holding his objective. I will need to test these guys out in more games but I think three full packs are the most effective heavy support for a footslogging army and one pack fielding all HB or ML would be a useful additions to most army lists, due to their cheap cost and weight of fire. Wolf Scouts Still as good as ever (not that you needed me to tell you that :lol: ) and I feel they have improved as the addition of MofW and larger packs allows them to engage units like Dev squads on nearly equal terms. My 5 man pack engaged a full HB Dev squad, reduced it to four men and held them up for two assault phases to allow a GH squad to move into position to gun down the survivors. Jaws of the Wolf was also useful in getting rid of the IG player's Nork Deddog who was standing next to Creed in a command squad. I didn't intend to snipe him out of the unit but he was only one of two models to fail his initiative check. This could be useful for things like Tyrant Guard or equivilant bodyguards. Another unit combination I tested out was a full pack of BC's, bare bones WP and a Wolf Lord with FB, SS, WTN and Saga of Warrior Born. Although half the pack died on the way to his gunline, even with cover, the unit buzzsawed its way though a full scout squad, half a tactical squad and a full Dev squad with the Wolf Lord still standing at the end. Cheers Thorgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemox Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 just as a side note regarding tyranid guards, they are I5 so if you are going to get a model in that unit go for the tyrant itself, the same chance of failing the I check, I think it is going to be absurdly effective at eating epidemus, how is this working when it comes to apocalypse? are my barbed Hierodule going to die from a crack? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Rao Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 how is this working when it comes to apocalypse? are my barbed Hierodule going to die from a crack? I highly doubt it. Since even moderate vehicles and even walkers are safe, I can't imagine it working on a MASSIVE bio-titan. That chasm your RP opens is simply too narrow to give it any problems, I reckon. But we're deviating dangerously into the RAI dimensions... We'll know when we'll know, which is prolly come next FAQ; for one thing GW is actively pushing Apoc, so it shouldn't take too long. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Titans/Warmachines are immune to Psychic powers. EDIT: I think so, at any rate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2119894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the great beaver Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 on bloodclaws of all types....they only can't shoot when they aren't led by a character. I'm definitely going to give my sky claws a wolf priest and my 14bloodclaws in a land raider has my wolf lord and a WGpack leader with twin wolf claws. melta guns are a must I've found as we really play the short ranged fire fight so I've taken 2 combi meltas, 3 multi meltas (LRC+2xSpeeders) and they've helped me out so much it's ridiculous. the long fangs shouldn't even be taken in tournament play unless you're going to give them a transport since they have a 1/3 chance of being forced to walk onto the table in scenario play. My overall impression from the last 4 games I've played is that they've made us better at the short ranged firefight than anyone and toned us a little down in CC. I tied my first two games because I kept playing with my old style and ran out of troops, while my last two games were wins because I focused on the objectives and didn't always go for the assault. lastly I really like bloodclaws in LRCs because they're a troop choice that can assault an enemy objective, overkill whatever is on it, and hold it from massed enemy guns due to high body count. my wolf lord has yet to die and has only not fulfilled his oath 1/4 times. runice armour storm shield frost axe wolf tooth necklace saga of the bear honestly...nothing is going to stand in his and his bloodclaw squads way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2120218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Okay, I will answer these one by one.... d6+3 rending attacks on the charge. MotW doesn't give you d6 base attacks, it gives you d6+1. MotW does give you d6+1 base attacks. With the charge that would be d6+2 (not +3) as you do not get an extra attack for having an additional weapon with MotW. I just thought I ought to correct this before folks got a little too excited. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2120527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Though Skyclaws do get D6+3 on the charge. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2120534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Though Skyclaws do get D6+3 on the charge. :( Oh, yes, Sky Claws with MotW would get d6+3 on the charge. If that was what Rokafort was talking about then I apologize for making the correction. It wasn't exactly clear and I thought he was talking about the Mark in general, and not necessarily on Sky Claws, specifically. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2120540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Okay, I will answer these one by one.... d6+3 rending attacks on the charge. MotW doesn't give you d6 base attacks, it gives you d6+1. MotW does give you d6+1 base attacks. With the charge that would be d6+2 (not +3) as you do not get an extra attack for having an additional weapon with MotW. I just thought I ought to correct this before folks got a little too excited. Valerian you dont get charge bonus with MoTW i thought. you replace that with d6+1 for your attacks, including charge bonus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2120553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Nope, you replace your BASE attacks with d6+1 and use no equipment. It mentions other things still give you bonus attacks (charging, thunderwolf mount). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/178950-competitive-analysis-of-the-new-book/page/2/#findComment-2120612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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