Saga of Bear vs Thunderwolf Mount

[Redbaron997]

Obviously Immunity to ID is a bit of a nice ability, but is it worth 35 points? Maybe

 

BUT for only 10 points more you can get a TW mount. Since the TW mount gives you a true T5 you get immunity to instant death vs anything but Str 10 (Meaning you are fine vs those pesky PFs.)

 

SO:

So Full Immunity for 35?

 

OR

 

Immunity to Str 8+9, +1 str, +1 A, and Calvary movement for 10 points more.

 

Obviously if you know you are facing Fexs, Dreads, or the such, the Bear is gonna be better as it will still ID. But the vast majority of ID kills seem to be made with the Str 8 PF type weapons.

[JamesI]

The wolf doesn't protect you from other forms of instant death like force weapons though.

[Decoy]

TWC, if you ask me, is by far the better option. S10 weaponry is rare at best, and T5 helps you -all-round-. Plus, S+1? It's a Frostblade on a Fast-Moving stick.

 

And remember, all Cavalry gets fleet, so... Yeah. I can't speak for anyone else, but a Thunderwolf will be a mainstay in my army, and not only for the fluff of the matter (no pun intended.)

[Jaarl Stormfang]

Where would the thunderwolf character go though? Can he join regular units? What about transports can you fit the wolf in one and at how many slots?

[Redbaron997]

Where would the thunderwolf character go though? Can he join regular units? What about transports can you fit the wolf in one and at how many slots?

 

No idea, but you coud put him with some Wolves and move him up a flank.

 

See the problem is people often put HQs with units that are strong CC units. So instead put him with a weaker unit. You could make him a Horde cutter uper, or give him a TH and get some Str 10 going on.

[Askari]

It seems a large, footslogging blood claw pack would be best to place a TWolf lord with. It has a large model count and the same combat range as the lord (12 inches and close combat) plus they can run so the lack of fleet won't matter except in a few cases. Compared to thunderwolves, they're much cheaper and should do about the same amount of damage as a unit of thunderwolves and will likely take fewer casualties for their points than thunderwolves. This is the only unit I can see this type of HQ going with any other unit will greatly deter the bodyguard unit's effectiveness. Footslogging wolfguard will be plasma and battle cannon bait, grey hunters work best either with a tranport or campign on a n objective, the first can't happen with a TWC and the latter is a waste of an expensive HQ, sky claws and bikes will be greatly slowed down by the HQ, and the other options just don't go with a CC HQ at all.

 

I don't see a lot of people taking thunderwolves competitively because while they're good at close combat, they're pretty fragile for their points cost. Since they're cavalry, they don't get a turbo boost save like bikes so they'll die pretty quickly against most anti-marine weapons.

 

That's the main reason to take SotB over a TWC, yu have greatly flexibility in how you use your HQ (Ok, you're going to be sending your wolf lords and Battle Leaders into CC as soon as possible anyway but how they get there is pretty important.)

[zark]

Fire prisms linked, vindicators, demolishers, and railguns are something a TWC should be concerned about. But adding all the other benefits like attacks and strength really make me want to convert my 6 old Juggernauts into TWC.

 

With SOTb or whatever it is called you can join units in everyones favorite crusader and move/assault away.

 

zark

[Ragnars Claw]

I would think one of the better combinations would be Thunder Wolf and a frost blade with warrior born. S6 power weapon with racking kills. Very tempting.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Remember that while the thunderwolf cavalry are true toughness 5, at least for the moment, the wargear entry only says that it adds +1 S T and A. Until an FAQ comes the Wolf Lord on wolf is only toughness 5 (4).

[Decoy]

Not quite, Freman. An addition of Toughness is not the same as a biker's 4(5). A +1 Toughness is similar to the Chaos Daemon Prince ability, which directly adds to toughness, not modifying it directly.

 

Furthermore, the one example that we do have, Canis, has a straight T5, which, if we can assume is granted by the Thunderwolf (Else he be T6, which would be great), marks it as a modified 5, not a 4(5). I'd bet money that the Toughness upgrade is just that; an upgrade, not a Bike-type alteration.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

The wargear entry says what it says. The big grey book states that modified toughness does not count against instant death unless otherwise stated IIRC. The attributes of special characters do not affect what the rules state.

[Ronin_eX]

Actually I'm not sure if that is quite true. If you got to the bike entry in the codex it refers to the BRB bike unit type entry which outright says the toughness increase doesn't count for insta-death. The entry for the Mark of Nurgle also explicitly says the toughness bonus works like a bike's toughness bonus in that it doesn't effect how insta-death works.

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry explicitly does not make this exception so it works as an actual. I am drawing up a blank for other units from a current edition of the game that get a toughness bonus that doesn't work against insta-death that fails to mention it doesn't work in that case. So by the wording and the obvious intent of the rules (seen in the TWC unit itself) the toughness bonus doesn't have the usual limit of bikes.

 

As for units to put a TWC-mounted character with, why not stick them in with a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry (fast attack choice, can contain one to five of the furry blighters)? A little pricey but good in assault.

 

The big grey book states that modified toughness does not count against instant death unless otherwise stated

 

Can't find that entry myself, could you possibly give me a page reference? Only the bike unit type entry mentions it (cavalry mentions absolutely nothing about it one way or the other). It would probably be the most helpful piece of info to clear things up.

[Decoy]

Page 6, BGB, states that "Certain pieces of wargear (Thunderwolves, in this case) or special rules may modify a model's characteristics positively or negatively, by adding to it (+1, +2, etc...)"

 

Page 53, BGB, states that "Bikes are large, solid constructs... <snip> ... Note that this increase does not affect the model's Toughness for the purposes of instant death (see page 26)."

 

Therefore, by the straight rules of the BGB, Thunderwolves as wargear provide a toughness increase. Bikes, however, give a toughness -alteration-, while not actually increasing the Toughness.

 

Toughness 5 stands.

 

EDIT: Editted for furthering of point.

 

Page 26, BGB, states that "Some models can gain improvement.... by using wargear items like bikes, Chaos Marks, etc. When it comes to instant death, such bonuses do not count. In these cases, two values will be shown for the Toughness characteristic."

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Since the Toughness 5 is not shown with two characteristics, while a Bike does indeed state it's precise function and form, it can be reasonably well-inferred that the Toughness 5 stands.

 

EDIT-EDIT: Mods, I hope I didn't break IP on this one. If so, please remove the offensive material. I'm not sure posting snippets counts as an IP violation.