Terminator Armor and Sweeping Advances...

[thade]

Here's the scenario: LRC carrying an HQ (which is in terminator armor) and my vanguard squad (the vets are of course in power armor). They pour out of the LRC, pound the crap out of some fools and send them packing. My HQ can't sweeping advance (as he's in terminator armor)...but the vanguard doesn't have this restriction. Can I still roll to sweep advance?

 

My thought is yet...since in the assault the HQ is seperate and the unit could just rush ahead of him to cut down the fleeing troops (indeed, I feel that the HQ would urge them to do so). And the rules say "Terminators cannot perform a sweeping advance" (as the armor is cumbersome). It doesn't say or suggest that models with an IC in Termie Armor gain this restriction.

 

Well? =) My crazy thinking here is Librarian in Terminator armor and my vanguard vets rolling out to kick the crap out of some fools. (Why terminator armor? Because I love it.) Is it legal?

[Locmac]

Well movement is limited to the slowest model so I feel like it can't be done as long as they're the same unit. Couldn't you just separate them?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Couldn't you just separate them?

 

Seperation is restricted to the movement phase (or at least you cant seperate during a charge, or during a combat, duno off the top of my head about if you can seperate with a run move)

[Grey Mage]

Well the argument for being able to pursue is that an IC counts as a seperate unit in CC- and the Initiative roll to catch is still done in combat.

[Legatus]

My thought is yet...since in the assault the HQ is seperate

I don't have the rulebook at hand, but I am pretty sure that the rules are stating explicitely that the IC only counts as a separate unit for attacks being made. During assault moves and combat result he is completely part of the unit he is with.

[Cadarn]

Ambiguous one this. Sweeping Advance is not movement, as such it is not restricted by an independant character. It is based on how quickly the troops can react to cut down the opponents as they turn to disengage, NOT how fast they run to catch up with them. Terminator armour, while generally very good and responsive, would slow someone down in this manner (so the flufffy side of my brain tells me) whereas the scouts or normal PA equipped marines would be able to react quickly enough.

 

Sweeping advance is not classed as an attack, nor is it classed as movement, two things which would be affected by having a IC. I say it is fine for none-TDA equipped troops to perform a sweeping advance, even if attached to a TDA equipped model.

[thade]

Once I got up this morning and saw the answer was not a simple one, I dug through the rules with a magnifying glass. So here is my thinking on it:

 

- The fallback move does not take place unless the unit that lost the assault wins the Sweeping Advance roll-off; the BRB states "if the falling back unit's total is higher, they break off from combat successfully. Make a fall back move for the losing unit." No movement has to take place for the advance to happen, so I don't believe that the PA'd unit has an issue here.

- An IC cannot join or LEAVE a unit in an assault, per BRB. This means that if the TDA's restriction of "No sweeping advances" does propogate to the rest of the PA'd squad, they can't break free simply by moving, so they can't perform a Sweeping Advance.

 

So does it propogate? Well, in the IC rules under "Special Rules" (BRB p48) it says "When an [iC] joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specifiedin the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule) the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred onto the unit." The TDA rules state that "Terminators cannot perform a Sweeping Advance." They do not state that units a terminator has joined also cannot perform a S.A.

 

So there it is. I maintain that my vanguard can have an HQ in terminator armor and can Sweep.

 

I'd be curious to see if anyone sees a flaw in my arguments?

[nighthawks]

I see the restriction of the TDA as one that the whole squad is limited to, based on the concept of movement at the speed of the slowest model. In short, no sweeping if any single or attached model in the unit is in TDA.

 

TDA is very good. this is a drawback to help balance the game a bit. I Think some wolves players might be able to shed an interesting light on this, they are very familiar with TDA in PA squads. I suspect that they will side with NO.

[Grey Mage]

We have had specific armor rules for a while, standard ones for a while, and now supposedly the new codex has specific ones again.

 

However our own rules before, and the new codex's rules say no Sweeping Advance if any member of the squad has TDA on. It doesnt specificy if that member is an attached IC or not.... so like I said: it depends... is the IC considered part of the squad for CC purposes?

 

Ive always said yes. Not for wound/attack allocation, but yes. Thus no sweeping advance.

[thade]

... the new codex's rules say no Sweeping Advance if any member of the squad has TDA on.

 

I hate to be a nuisance, but could you cite me the page/line where it says this? I can see people inferring this...but I don't see it stated, so I think my interpretation is the correct one, as the TDA's rule is a "special rule" and the IC rules state that special rules applying to the IC do not confer to squads it has joined *unless* the rule states otherwise.

 

If you can point out where the TDA rules say it's *contagious* as it were, then it's solved. =) If it doesn't exist, then it's solved.

[SeattleDV8]

The TDA is not a 'Special Rule', it is Wargear which is treated different.

If you look in your Army List Entries ( C: SM pg 128 for example ) you will see Special rules in section #5 and Wargear in section #4

The IC rule on pg. 48 does not apply to wargear.

[Grey Mage]

... the new codex's rules say no Sweeping Advance if any member of the squad has TDA on.

 

I hate to be a nuisance, but could you cite me the page/line where it says this? I can see people inferring this...but I don't see it stated, so I think my interpretation is the correct one, as the TDA's rule is a "special rule" and the IC rules state that special rules applying to the IC do not confer to squads it has joined *unless* the rule states otherwise.

 

If you can point out where the TDA rules say it's *contagious* as it were, then it's solved. =) If it doesn't exist, then it's solved.

Well for the current SW codex theres always the 5th edition FAQ, wich states that BloodClaws cannot be led by a WGPL in TDA, as it would prevent them from preforming a sweeping advance that they are required to do unless accompanied by an IC... wich he is not.

 

For the new SW codex I dont have it at hand, and so sadly cannot be of more help.

[thade]

The TDA is not a 'Special Rule', it is Wargear which is treated different.

If you look in your Army List Entries ( C: SM pg 128 for example ) you will see Special rules in section #5 and Wargear in section #4

The IC rule on pg. 48 does not apply to wargear.

 

This seems plausible to me, but it bugs me that no where does it state that "restrictions imposed by wargear confer to the entire squad". This seems like someone telling me that "Since one model in your squad is equipped with a Powerfist, your *entire unit* resolves its attacks at initiative 1." Now, we know that is not true, as it applies to the model. So does TDA apply to the model. >_<

 

Though I think Grey Mage's cited precedent is pretty definitive. It certainly seems to imply that "Were the WGPL in TDA an IC, it would be alright that the Blood Claws couldn't perform a Sweeping Advance."

 

Damn. I really wanted to put my Libby in Terminator armor. <_<

 

Thanks for the thoughts all. Seems an IC in TDA would prevent a unit it's with from performing a Sweep.

[Cadarn]

Hmm. One thing to consider though. I've just been looking at the rules on IC and it states that "an independent character may leave a unit by moving out of coherency of the unit during the movement phase." Not "at the start of their movement phase."

 

Now, disembarking is a part of the movement phase. As such, you can still have your librarian attached to your squad and then when the disembark, just make sure that he is kept 2 inches away from them, thus declaring that he is not part of the unit. This may mean deploying him out of a side door of a land raider, meaning he might not make it into assault range, but that is down to how close you can get. He may then assault alongside BUT NOT PART OF the Vanguard unit. Seeing as he is classed as a separate unit once in the assault anyway it makes no difference to their combat effectiveness other than the fact that they will not be able to use his Leadership.

 

Thus, the Vanguard may perform a sweeping advance as he is not attached to them.

[thade]

Ah, I see...Shenanigans.

 

Disembark TDA equipped IC out of coherency with the vanguard. Assault with both units...IC first to ensure that he can make it. Once he's "locked in combat" he can not join another unit (per IC rules). So now he's in the CC, and the vanguard assaults in as well. They are not only treated as seperate units for purposes of the attack; for the duration of the battle they ARE seperate units. Which would allow the vanguard to make a Sweeping Advance, though the IC could not.

 

Brilliant. =) Seems a bit cheesy, but certainly under the rules. Not being able to use his leadership would only be an issue were a Sweep not allowed anyway (i.e. the vanguard lost the combat); still, something to consider...considering how bad my morale checks can be.

[Cadarn]

Kephri has just pointed out a flaw in my point though (and it was a tenuous point to start with).

 

When disembarking, a unit must disembark within unit coherency. Now, a transport can only carry one unit, which means only one unit can disembark (you could not separate him from the unit while still on the transport). This unit MUST deploy in coherency. As the vehicle has already moved, the unit cannot move further thus allowing the Librarian to move 2 inches away. It's a very fine line, but it does muddy the waters somewhat.

[thade]

The vehicle in question here is a LR, which allows some flexibility in deployment...ie, if the IC deploys on one side of the tank, and the vanguard deploys on the other side....

 

This gets cheesier and cheesier...I'd have to pop off Quickening on the Libby to get him close enough for the assault in some cases...or angle the tank juuuuust right for this deployment strategy to work.

 

Recall however that ICs *can* deploy out of coherency from a transport, per the IC disembarkment rules. (I didn't think that was your confusion, but I wasn't sure.)

[Kephri]

The vehicle in question here is a LR, which allows some flexibility in deployment...ie, if the IC deploys on one side of the tank, and the vanguard deploys on the other side....

 

This gets cheesier and cheesier...I'd have to pop off Quickening on the Libby to get him close enough for the assault in some cases...or angle the tank juuuuust right for this deployment strategy to work.

 

Recall however that ICs *can* deploy out of coherency from a transport, per the IC disembarkment rules. (I didn't think that was your confusion, but I wasn't sure.)

 

The issue that I brought up (that I still have no book to verify) is if you MUST deploy everyone in coherency. You may not have the option of popping an IC out a different door and calling it 'leaving the squad'.

 

That is the question. I still do not know for a fact if that is the case.

[thade]

BRB p67, top right: "The unit and independent characters may, in a later Movement phase, disembark together as a single unit They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard, or even disembarking at the same time using different access points (but they must end their move more than 2" away from one another)."

 

Resolved. =) Your shenanigan will in fact work, sir. Good work.

[Cadarn]

Huzzah! :lol:

[Kephri]

Glad that it works then!

 

Now of course you just need to make sure you don't to too well, because if you wipe out the whole unit, your IC cannot join again until next movement phase and can be shot at. That happened to me once. (Unless there is another way that he can rejoin after they sweep a unit or something)

[thade]

Glad that it works then!

 

Now of course you just need to make sure you don't to too well, because if you wipe out the whole unit, your IC cannot join again until next movement phase and can be shot at. That happened to me once. (Unless there is another way that he can rejoin after they sweep a unit or something)

 

No, that is definitely a vulnerability that may not be worth this kind of manuever. In the best cases you either kill the unit outright or Sweep it off the table...either way you leave the assault unit vulnerable (unless you make a brilliant consolidate move). With this manuever, you'd have to make two consolidate moves...possibly you could give the Lib a cover save by surrounding him with the unit...but I think that's the best you can do. You can't join up an IC unless it's during the movement phase so far as I know...so if this all comes to pass at the end of your own turn, your opponent could easily mow the IC down via shooting. Use at your own risk.

[Isiah]

OK the rules conundrums have been answered. Tactics are for elsewhere on the B&C please.

 

Cheers

I

[Frosty the Pyro]

Glad that it works then!

 

Now of course you just need to make sure you don't to too well, because if you wipe out the whole unit, your IC cannot join again until next movement phase and can be shot at. That happened to me once. (Unless there is another way that he can rejoin after they sweep a unit or something)

 

No, that is definitely a vulnerability that may not be worth this kind of manuever. In the best cases you either kill the unit outright or Sweep it off the table...either way you leave the assault unit vulnerable (unless you make a brilliant consolidate move). With this manuever, you'd have to make two consolidate moves...possibly you could give the Lib a cover save by surrounding him with the unit...but I think that's the best you can do. You can't join up an IC unless it's during the movement phase so far as I know...so if this all comes to pass at the end of your own turn, your opponent could easily mow the IC down via shooting. Use at your own risk.

 

This is true, aditionaly if you lose and are fearless both units take the full no retreat wounds (so if you lost by 2, the IC takes 2 and the unit takes 2). It does give some defence against you getting swept though, as you would have to fail both ld checks and both sweep rolls (due to ATSKNF).

[thade]

In any event, thank you all for your contributions here. I learned a lot.