Terminator Armor and Sweeping Advances...

[Rythlan]

So you are telling me that if I have Cassius running wtih some LC Terms in a Landraider, as long as I dissembark seperately then assault seperately, Cassius is going to be able to sweeping advance the squad that was just crushed under the might of terminators?

[Frosty the Pyro]

yes, as long as disembark seperatly means they are more than 2" apart (and thus not joined). Just remember after said sweeping advance you have 2 units on the battle feild and casius can be shot at individualy.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

And Cassius' Litanies of Battle won't benefit the Termies if he isn't in their squad.

[thade]

Sorry to belabor this further, but something else occurred to me.

 

If the LR has moved, you'll have to disembark both units at the same time (the IC and the squad) and out of coherency for this to work; since when the transport moves, they cannot move during their move phase, they'll all have to be outside (and in range) for the assault.

 

If the LR has NOT moved, you can disembark one unit, move it, then disembark the other unit and move it seperately...giving you a lot more breathing room in making this work. Keep them 2" apart for their entire move then assault with them and you can (as we've stated) sweeping advance with the PA'd (or non-TDA'd) unit.

[Grey Mage]

Of course, the best option would be to use a JP squad to support TDA, thus removing all of this pain-staking manipulation altogether.

[Rythlan]

Of course, the best option would be to use a JP squad to support TDA, thus removing all of this pain-staking manipulation altogether.

 

 

Agreed.

[thade]

*dusts this topic off*

 

This was originally resolved with a precedent from the Space Wolves 5th Ed FAQ, regarding the WGBL...however I've just learned that this isn't relevant, since the WGBL is NOT an IC...he's bound to that unit for the duration of the game, like a vet serg. Unless this is not true...I again see nothing restricting a unit from performing a Sweep when an IC in TDA is part of a unit full of models in PA.

 

Thoughts?

[SeattleDV8]

Think of it like this.

If you fire a heavy weapon in a Tac squad the entire squad is stopped from assaulting

Even though the rest of the squad could assault the one piece of wargear prevents it.

Not a perfect example I know, but the idea is there.

The one suit of TDA stops the units SA.

[thade]

Think of it like this.

If you fire a heavy weapon in a Tac squad the entire squad is stopped from assaulting

Even though the rest of the squad could assault the one piece of wargear prevents it.

Not a perfect example I know, but the idea is there.

The one suit of TDA stops the units SA.

 

No, I'm afraid that those are different cases. In your example, the tac squad member is NOT an IC and cannot leave his unit. In my example, the IC does possess the ability to leave the unit, and is treated as a seperate unit during the Assault (can be singled out as a target, primarily). That's actually the conundrum I just pointed out, and the reason I revived this thread.

 

EDIT: To recap:

- The question is this: when an IC in TDA is joined with a unit that is NOT in TDA, and this described team wins the combat and forces a rout, can they then perform a sweeping advance?

 

- If the rule from TDA counts as a Special Rule, then the answer is a definitive No, as TDA wargear rules do not state that inability to Sweep is "contagious" (that it prevents other units from doing so).

- If the rule from TDA counts as a "war gear rule", which is not specified in 5th Ed but some have referred to it, then they cannot Sweep. However, as it states no where that war gear rules propagate to units that the IC has joined, we are left to presume not.

- According to the fluff around the rules, TDA makes a model sluggish and thus not fast enough to perform a sweeping advance. Thus, some maintain that as unit can only move as fast as its fastest model, then an IC in TDA prevents a PA'd unit from Sweeping. However, this "only as fast as the fastest" rule only appears in the Movement phase. All movement in the Assault Phase disregards this entirely, as you either move a flat 6" or roll Nd6 for consolidate moves, pile-in moves, and fall back moves. Moreover, the Sweep does not involve any movement at all: the models do not move until after the Sweep is resolved. Does a Sweep count as a "Move", as an "Attack", or as something else? This is unclear. The Sweeping Advance is at it's base an Initiative Test VS your opponent's Initiative Test, but unfortunately no where in the rules is this spelled out or elucidated upon.

 

The work around that was proposed is that the IC and unit could each move out of coherency during the Movement phase (the only time they can), then assault separately. The benefit is that the PA'd unit can sweep. The detriment is that any abilities that the IC might give to a unit during a charge (for instance, a Chaplian's re-rolls and Fearless powers) are NOT given to the unit (as they were different unit when they assaulted and they cannot join during the Assault Phase). While some might maintain this is balance issue, I feel that if balance was the reason they left it like this, they would have mentioned it. As they have not, I believe this was an oversight.

 

Therefore, I feel the work-around is silly. So far my (rather large) club agrees, and it looks as if we will allow Sweeping Advances for combats where there is a unit not in TDA, regardless of whether the IC was joined to them or not pre-Assault.

 

I'd be curious for something more definitive, but the last time I emailed GW...well, it was June, and they never got back to me. Perhaps I'll write this up and ship it, and maybe I'll get a response before Xmas. =)

[Frosty the Pyro]

Think of it like this.

If you fire a heavy weapon in a Tac squad the entire squad is stopped from assaulting

Even though the rest of the squad could assault the one piece of wargear prevents it.

Not a perfect example I know, but the idea is there.

The one suit of TDA stops the units SA.

 

No, I'm afraid that those are different cases. In your example, the tac squad member is NOT an IC and cannot leave his unit. In my example, the IC does possess the ability to leave the unit, and is treated as a seperate unit during the Assault (can be singled out as a target, primarily). That's actually the conundrum I just pointed out, and the reason I revived this thread.

 

 

The IC very much IS part of the unit durring the SA though. The IC is only seperate durring attacks and wound allocation. He is rejoined with the unit during combat resalution. Thats why you can use his Ld for your test if you lose, and why you only roll once to fall back if they are trying to SA you. (remember that in both the escape and SA you use average initive, not highest)

SA happens after combat resalution. See page 49 "Independent characters & assults.

[thade]

The IC very much IS part of the unit durring the SA though. The IC is only seperate durring attacks and wound allocation. He is rejoined with the unit during combat resalution. Thats why you can use his Ld for your test if you lose, and why you only roll once to fall back if they are trying to SA you. (remember that in both the escape and SA you use average initive, not highest)

SA happens after combat resalution. See page 49 "Independent characters & assults.

 

Yes, what you say is all true. However, I am not saying that he's not part of the unit during the Sweep. What I'm saying is that I don't see why his being a part of the unit would prevent the Sweep from happening.

 

Thematically, I can't imagine a Chaplain in Terminator armor telling his marines to NOT pursue and finish off an obviously broken foe. Just because he's not fast enough doesn't mean that his troops aren't.

[Isiah]

What I'm saying is that I don't see why his being a part of the unit would prevent the Sweep from happening.

Because wearing terminator armour forbids it and that's all there is to it. As the IC is attached to the unit at that particular time and can't then leave them – he effectively holds them back.

 

 

Thematically, I can't imagine a Chaplain in Terminator armor telling his marines to NOT pursue and finish off an obviously broken foe. Just because he's not fast enough doesn't mean that his troops aren't.

Fluff isn't rules. We can only play the game as the rules in the BRB and Codexes tell us to. These rules might reflect the relevant fluff or thematics – or they might not.

[thade]

What I'm saying is that I don't see why his being a part of the unit would prevent the Sweep from happening.

Because wearing terminator armour forbids it and that's all there is to it. As the IC is attached to the unit at that particular time and can't then leave them – he effectively holds them back.

 

See, I'm not certain that's the case. They don't have to break coherency to perform the Sweep, so he needn't leave them. No movement is taking place. And the TDA rules state that "terminators cannot perform sweeping advances." This is somewhat annoying as it is the *only* rule that does not specify "Models wearing Terminator armor"...but as all the others do, that was my inference. That "Models wearing terminator armor cannot perform Sweeping Advances". No where does it say that "If an IC wearing TDA joins a unit, that unit cannot perform a Sweep", as it does for other rules where the IC's presence can change a unit's behavior.

 

I seem to recall seeing in the 4th Ed codex that ICs in terminator armor couldn't join units that weren't in terminator armor. Did I imagine that? Or perhaps that legacy rule (which they dropped) covered this, and that's why it never came up before?

 

I'm just hung up on this, as it seems too ambiguous to me. Sorry to belabor it.

[nighthawks]

Thade - I've been on your end of a lot of arguments. trust me, no matter how sensible you feel your argument is (and it has some RAW without context merit) if everyone else disagrees, you could have the best argument in the history of debate and still loose. because there are a lot of rules that are so well understood in this game that they forget to make a point of them in the books. everyone keeps going based on the contextual basis such as those arguments placed against you today alone.

 

TDA, even on a single model attached to a non-TDA unit, forbids sweeps. so it has been written, so it shall be played.

[thade]

The thing that gets me is that both I and you all have very well structured arguments for both sides. I kind of wish this (and many other rules) would get lumped into an FAQ. (My understanding is that a lot of us share such a feeling.) <3

 

I emailed GW and expect a response within the next decade or two. In the meantime, I will rest with your decision. No sweeping advances for my Vanguard when accompanied by a Terminator IC.

 

Thanks all for weighing in. =)