SM vs Eldar

[wizard12]

I've only played them once and, well, lets just say I still show the scars

 

how do you fight them. Do you just empty clip after clip of bolt shots into them and hope for the best?

 

do you have to learn everyone for their aspects and think of the best thing to counter them?

 

so how do you fight them?

[Grey Mage]

Like you should fight any army.

 

With knowledge, tactics, and a stout heart.

 

I cannot give you a stout heart, nor can I create an amazing tactician out of nothing.

 

But I can give you knowledge, and hope your good enough to actually learn something from it.

 

READ THIS:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=165294

 

And youll gain a much better understanding of Eldar. One of the primary strengths of this army is that in operates in a vastly different way than a marine army, or an ork army or a tau army. Their playstyle is flexable, strong, and unique unto themselves. Because they have better armor than orks youll need more than brute force to win- though frankly, sometimes it doesnt hurt :lol:.

[Koremu]

Destroy their mobility. Wave serpents especially are a PITA. Every fast moving unit you don't destroy is a fast unit that will be objective hopping at turbo speed on turn 5.

[Cadarn]

A big thing I would say is, whatever you do, do NOT split your forces. Eldar have the mobility to pick off isolated units one at a time. Be the porcupine. Also, it depends on the type of army your facing. Eldar units are massively specialised. Work out HOW they can hurt you and then take your tactics from there.

 

I'm an Eldar player myself, so speaking as a dirty xenos traitor:

 

-Fire Dragons are the best tank killers in the game. If a unit gets within range of your armour, whether it be a land raider or not, consider it toast. However, the the important part of that is "If a unit gets within range" They need a transport to get them there, and Eldar transports, while superb, are also very expensive if they plan on being effective. Take them out as a priority.

 

-Heavy Bolters are your friend. An Assault Canon/ Heavy Bolter armed land speeder can be superb, as can a heavy flamer. Yes, they are fragile, but keep them moving to give them the 4+ save and it will help. They can move fast enough to react to threats at the edge of your formation. Against T4 troops with, 4+ armour save, they are excellent, especially as Eldar generally move in smallish units. Hitting on a 3+ and killing on a 2+ they are the bees knees when fighting an infantry heavy list.

 

-Lascannons over Meltas. Getting within range of the eldar to be able to effectively use melta weapons is tricky. It will often involve running units forward unsupported, which is exactly what they want. Lascanons give you a lot of range and will help to counter some of the Eldar nippiness. If they are flying around full speed then an immobilised result is as good as a destroyed. Fast skimmers moving flat out which suffer an immobilised result crash to the ground and are classed as wrecked. Against transports, the main thing you want to do is to immobilise them. Most Eldar vehicles have light to medium armour, and a lascannon has a very good chance to getting the job done. This is especially true when you twin link them, and there are a lot of chances to twin link lascannons in a marine list: Dreadnoughts, Predators & Landraiders. Autocanons are also very handy here. They have the strength to take down light vehicles such as Vypers & War Walkers. They have excellent range and can also be used as decent infantry killers, especially against jetbikes.

 

-Librarians. These chaps can be infuriating against a Psyker heavy Eldar list. Their Physchic hoods can really mess with Eldar psychic power usage. Also, the Null Zone power means that they must re-roll their invulnerable saves, so rune armour becomes FAR less effective.

 

-Target Priority. Due to the aforementioned specialisation of Eldar units, you can really mess up their battle plan by taking out one or two key units. These can be the transports, their tank busters or whatever. If he ends up having to use units in a way for which they were not intended then you've really got him on the back foot. That is a marine player's great advantage; the flexibility of his troops. There are a few units than can be utterly horrendous to fight against.

 

Dark Reapers were practically designed to kill marines. 48 inch range, str5 AP3 weapons. Throw in a Farseer with guide and these boys will chew through any of your Power Armoured squads. However, they can be fragile. A drop-podding Dreadnought will make a mess of them.

 

If you see two fire prisms on the table then kill them. Kill them quick. No-one wants a twin linked, BS4 60 inch range, Str6 AP3 pie plate on the table, and that is what two of these boys will give you for less than the cost of your land raider. You can pretty much kiss goodbye to a squad per turn so long as it they are intact. Kill one and you more than half the effectiveness.

 

Wraithlords. These guys are amazingly cool models. They look intimidating and pack a mean punch. However, don't be intimidated by them unduly. Their bark is often worse than their bike. The afformentioned lascannons can easily chew through them, and despite their high toughness they still only have 3+ save and three wounds. If you do stack up on the lascanons then you should have no problem with them. They also fall to power fists & Thunder-hammers. Unless they present a very clear and identifiable threat to your plan (such as getting close to your land raider or sitting on an objective you REALLY need) then do your best to avoid them. If you take the lascannons, consider them a secondary target after the transports. Also, Sternguard with Hellfire rounds can also be very tasty.

 

-Knowledge is power. If you're really struggling against them then it is worthwhile picking up their codex. Eldar have a lot of funny rules, with every single unit having a unique special rule of sorts.

 

Eldar are very fun to play, but can be infuriating to play against. The above is just a sample of what I've learned when playing with them and against them. It really will depend on what kind of list they use. Hope all that helps.

[HERO]

I played Eldar before I played Marines.. and there are some atrocities in the Eldar book that everyone should know:

 

1. Energy Fields on the Wave Serpent means that melta weapons aren't worth a damn vs their front armor. All Melta weapons don't get the extra die to penetrate.

2. Holofields and Spirit Stones on the Falcon means that any damage inflicted you roll 2 dice on the vehicle damage chart, then you take the lowest result. Spirit Stones just keeps the Falcon moving.

3. Fire Dragons kill anything tank related.. and they're always riding in Falcons or Wave Serpents. Pay attention to where your opponent puts them.

4. Dire Avengers always ride in Wave Serpents. They can dish out 33 shots at BS4, S4.. so watch them closely. With a Farseer to Doom nearby.. you're looking at a dead squad of Tacs.

5. Wraithlords are T8. Hey have 3+ armor and 3 wounds. Sternguard with Hellfire are your best friends.

6. Avatars. Immune to melta weapons and are WS10, eternal warrior with 3 wounds and 4+ invul. Even a fist in your squad won't help you kill it because you need 5s to hit. Kill this guy with a lot of concentrated shots. Sternguard come to mind once again.

7. Null Zone is great against all Eldar that comes with Invul.. because they'll almost definitely have a Farseer (if not Eldrad) on the field.

8. Know the Farseer and know what his powers do. Guide, Doom, Fortune and Mind War are the biggest ones. Runes of Warding is also problematic for any psykers trying to get powers off.

9. Eldar are a fast and specialized army. If you can isolate and destroy his anti-armor for example, his army will be in trouble vs your armor. If you kill his anti-troop choices, then he'll be weak at killing Tactical Marines. Kill their speed and their special troops.

10. All Flamers and Heavy Flamers are invaluable against Eldar Infantry once they're exposed. They will utterly destroy them.

[Resv]

What Cadarn said above it VERY good advice and I have a few other bits to toss in on top of his excellent comments.

 

Always make sure your opponent is honest with his/her transports:

Go ahead and ask exactly what is in each Falcon or Wave Serpent. Your opponent doesn't have to tell you but it puts it into their mind that you're paying attention to where they are pulling units out of. I recent played an SM player that I caught "restructuring" squads on the fly as they were coming out of his Rhinos from a big horde of models that I could only call a "marine pool." He used the same Power Fist Sargent twice instead of using the Power Weapon Sargent he had sitting next to it, same thing with a Melta Marine.

 

Eldar can take this one step further by laying out each Aspect squad, then just deciding that "AH-HA! My Wave Serpent is suddenly much closer to your Armor than your Tactical squads! I will deploy my Fire Dragons rather than my Banshees." I'm not saying that all Eldar Players will cheat, but it is something to watch out for. I have seen this done before and I am sure I will see it again.

 

Target Priority:

With the above in mind take a look at your opponent's forces that aren't on the board yet. Thing inside of his Transports or in reserve. A fluffy Eldar Player will always keep their aspects color correct giving you a quick frame of reference for what is coming your way. This I think is one of the biggest weaknesses with Eldar Armies is that they outright color code their units for easy priority. As others have said any transports rank high on the list of things to kill. One of the best things you can do to ruin an Eldar players day isn't necessarily destroying their vehicles so much as slowing them down to a crawl. If you have sucessfully stunned a crew early in the game it might pay off to focus on a different target rather than focus on that single Transport until it is replaced by a crater.

 

Deployment:

As Cadarn said do not spread out when you deploy. If it isn't critical to your plan of attack, keeping a few fast units in reserve can really help put an Eldar Player off balance. If you wall up and then suddenly move in a unit of Scout Bikers or Land Speeders to get behind those transports you will force at least some of the firepower away from your main force while taking a few of them with you. As a recent Eldar Player myself I always get a little Twinkle in my eye when ever I see my enemy spread themselves out at the beginning of a game. Keeping a good center of armor while providing mutual support can easily put a stop to some Eldar tactics. Move in a group whenever possible keeping cover formations as you move to take objectives or to exploit angles of fire.

 

Something else to watch out for is how your opponent sets themselves up in deployment. This is important because your opponent could be luring you into deploying in a certain way leaving you exposed to their substantially faster tanks. Figure out what is going to work best for you to achieve the goal of the Mission.

 

A bit more to add to the consideration pile.

[Cadarn]

Following on from what Resv says about deployment, another note on tricks to watch out for (both of which I personally love using).

 

-Eldar redeployment. I, as the Eldar player, deploy first and set up my highly mobile army in exposed, tempting or misleading ways. My opponent thus reacts to my deployment. In my first turn, every single unit in my army, all of whom are either on jetbikes or in Star Engined transports, can move 24 inches minimum, with the transports moving 36 inches! Now, that means no shooting will be done on that turn, but it does mean that I have effectively been able to redeploy my entire army and throw off my opponent's game plan. There isn't much that can be done to counter that, but it reinforces the "porcupine" tactic mentioned above. Just remember to always try and grab the initiative in cases like this. If you can take out some of his transports before they even move then all the better.

 

-Delayed deployment: Autarchs allow the eldar player to add 1 to the dice roll to determine when they enter from reserve. A canny and risk taking Eldar player can leave his entire force off the table and then bring them in as reserves from turn 2 onwards, with a high probability that they will all be on the table within a couple of turns. That means an entire army coming on anywhere along that 6 foot table edge. It is difficult to prepare for that, but be sure to keep in mind likely places where they may come on from, and don't underestimate how deep they can penetrate. Even arriving from their own board edge, they can make it to the middle of the board in one turn, and reach anything you may have in your back field a turn later. With this, just be extra careful not to split your force, thinking that there is no immediate threat. You may think your securing that objective nice and early, but unsupported all you are doing is making a ripe target for a rush by a unit of Dire Avengers delivered by Wave Serpent, with the Shining Spears there to mop up any leftovers.

 

Make each component of your army threatening to approach. Your tactical squad may look like a prime target for Dire Avengers accompanied by a Farseer, but they will be less keen on doing it when they see the Assault Squad close by. These boys will chew through most Eldar infantry on the charge. If you're facing a fast Eldar force then it can actually work in your favour to keep them from getting too close. If they don't want to approach (and with the trusty Dire Avenger & Wave Serpent combo, they are going to want to) then they have to stay back and snipe. This robs them of some of their effectiveness. Its likely that the Wave Serpents will only have light weapons in order to keep the points down, meaning that it is being used in a sub optimal role. He will also be trying to keep his units moving 12 inches per turn to benefit from the 4+ obscured save. This means their fire-power potential is reduced. This comes back to what was said earlier about forcing the Eldar player to use his units in ways in which they are not designed.

 

Dreadnoughts can also be very nasty deterrents against Eldar getting too close. There are not actually all that many units in an Eldar force who can take on a dread in close combat. Fire Dragons have melta bombs. Autarchs & Swooping Hawks have Haywire grenades, but they still need 6s to hit in combat. Wraithlords & Scorpions can be nasty with the WL being a monstrous creature and the Scorpion Exarch having the option to take a power fist, but that is pretty much it. There are no hidden fists within an Eldar unit beyond the Scorpions. The high leadership of most Eldar forces means that if you get a dread in combat with them then you're likely to tie them up for a VERY long time. All in all, combined arms is the way to go.

[Resv]

On the Dreadnought note, there are actually a lot of ways that one can go down to Eldar. Jetbike Farseers and Warlocks are my HQ of choice and in Shooting/CC they will chew up a Dreadnought with Witch Blades and Spears. Fire Dragons have Meltas in ample supply and honestly nothing is going to be walking around after a round of shooting from them, the exarch has an ability that also denies cover so watch out for that. The idea of a Hidden Power Fist really can't be said about Eldar as their units are so cut and dry. The real worry is how quickly those scary units can get into range to do you harm.

 

Assault Troops, Assault Scouts, and Assault Dreds are all worth while. However I'm not a huge fan or recommending units as nobody has the same collection or the money to go out a buy a box or two of new Models.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

A few problems with your post, HERO...

 

I played Eldar before I played Marines.. and there are some atrocities in the Eldar book that everyone should know:

 

1. Energy Fields on the Wave Serpent means that melta weapons aren't worth a damn vs their front armor. All Melta weapons don't get the extra die to penetrate.

 

Meltas are still good against Serpents, because they penetrate on 5s with a +1 to AP. That's still an above average weapon.

 

4. Dire Avengers always ride in Wave Serpents. They can dish out 33 shots at BS4, S4.. so watch them closely. With a Farseer to Doom nearby.. you're looking at a dead squad of Tacs.

 

If they die, then you're pretty unlucky. I'll be nice and include Guide as well. 33 shots, including the 5 BS5 from the Farseer and Autarch, is equivalent to roughly 29 hits. Those 29 hits will equal about 21 wounds, and 7 dead. That's with Guide. Without guide, you're looking at 23 hits, 17 wounds, and 5-6 dead. So yeah, it'll hurt a ton, but it's nowhere near a dead Tac squad.

 

6. Avatars. Immune to melta weapons and are WS10, eternal warrior with 3 wounds and 4+ invul. Even a fist in your squad won't help you kill it because you need 5s to hit. Kill this guy with a lot of concentrated shots. Sternguard come to mind once again.

 

The Avatar is not EW.

 

 

 

Other than that I agree with what you said.

[Lord_Caldera]

Full reserve mech Eldar is my standard opponent. Missiles are your best friend in the world! Eldar have max armor 12 and the reduced price of missiles over lascannons vs. wave serpents is definitely worth it. They're still decent against wraithlords, and the blast is okay dumping wounds on a 3+ on anything outside of wraiths. Be very wary of farseers, their powers should not be underestimated. A fortuned seer council is the biggest pain to deal with, especially in combat, and nobody likes to be doomed. Be careful about getting into close combat with aspects. They may be fragile and weak but the go before you and probably have better WS and the most common exarchs have something for close quarters.

[chapter master 454]

not really mentioned but you could always take a TFC, the sub terrain rounds work on tanks, hit a tank (or skimmer) with just a whisker of one of the 4 blast markers and that vechile has to take dangerous terrain checks if it moves. Nice trick to remember if you want to make the eldar player concerned about his main transport. Oh and it does have a good upside, it bypasses all the special protection against that sort of thing by going straight to it.