thade Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I finished painting, magnetizing, and assembling my LRC two weeks ago. First, let me brag a little...I'm extremely proud of this thing. I'll take some pics and post them. Anyway... I've fielded it six times now. - The first time it was VS Black Templar Bikes, and I managed to kill the one anti-vehicle unit in the army very early, so my LR reigned supreme. - The second time was VS Tau and they had five rail guns...my LRC blazed in, got several of it's guns shot off, but kept on truckin...delivered my vanguard vets to the Tau, sped off to replace a dead Rhino and deliver my scoring unit to their objective while my vanguard's survivors (Master of the Forge, a relic blade, and a storm shield) killed/routed four full units on their own; it was very exciting. I admit, that experience with the railguns may have made me a bit cocky... - The third time, it took one hit from an IG tank to the face...and Wrecked, first turn. - Fourth time, took a point blank hit from a meltagun...and Exploded, first turn. - Fifth game, a Vulkanized melta list, it took like six consecutive melta shots, Shaken, then Exploded, first turn. - Sixth game, one shot from a vindicator, Exploded, first turn. In all four games, Smoke was on the LR. In three of those four games, my opponent's eyes widened and they apologized to me. In fact, in one of those games, my opponent tank shocked my freakin Vanguard off of the table, also on turn one, after they were force-disembarked from said-exploded LR. He looked more mortified than I did. And I was pretty mortified. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to stop using my LR...but while it's got armor 14, it's a HUGE target with a big neon sign over it that says "YOU HAVE TO KILL THIS RIGHT NOW" and it takes a ridiculous amount of fire power. So, here is my question: How do I keep it alive? It's got to deliver it's payload (melee doods) and I'd like for it to do other things after, but it really really sucks when it gets hosed leaving my melee literally footslogging (and usually losing 60% of it's number before they can close to assault anything). How do you use your Land Raider(s)? How do you keep them alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 The best way to keep one Land Raider alive is to take another one. It seems counter intuitive, but it's the only way to ensure they live. If they focus fire on one LR, then the other gets away scott free and drops its crew off really close to the enemy. If they spread fire, even better: true, both of your beasties are now injured, but injured isn't dead. The only things that can TRULY take multiple Raiders are lists with megatons of melta (IG Vets spring to mind) or Railguns galore. But other than that, laugh. Laugh and run them over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Drop a Ironclad Dreadnought next to his Anti-tank and see what his reaction is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Yep thats about the size of it. Its a sad fact but everyone is gunning for your Landraider because it has a nice, expensive and relatively squishy Vanguard unit in it. You have to ask yourself the following questions though: Am I achieving my goals despite my landraider being destroyed? Do I have enough armour to make my opponent spread his anti tank? Would my army be better without this large bullet magnet? Is this model cursed? You may think this is a joke reply but I have plenty of cursed models which perform far below their potential. In the big picture of 40K it matters not that the landraider gets killed every game, hell it happened to me most of the time when I used to take a raider. What matters is that your entire force does not fall apart and completely falter when said raider goes bang. The way I used to build lists you wouldnt pick my army out of the crowd because it was a top heavy structure with a fairly obvious power unit, now however I am building lists which have more threats which are less uber but more than capable of doing their job. If my opponent takes out one of these it matters not, if they take out them all then they have me. It is always a risk pinning your hopes on a single model, especially when your opponent will have at least 1/2 of his/her forces capable of dealing it a rather crippling blow. Hell even Orks have a Nob unit which is capable of penetrating the Trusty raider. My advice is to either accept that it will happen and practice/plan for how you will deal with this fact or lose the raider in several games and see if your army performs better without it. Play your 1750 force at 1500 without the raider (assuming this is the points value you have) and see what difference it makes, it might just be that the death of your raider takes much more than you think in terms of opponents reaction movements and shooting disposition. A landraider requires quite a bit to take out, if your opponents look like they are having an easy time of it take a note of what other units were poised to fire upon it and you will see that they were likely prepared to shoot much more than they had to. This kind of impact on your opponent is sometimes much more valuable that the raider itself. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I just gotta ask... was that Vulkan list in DPs? Howd he get point blank melta shots off first turn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanthius Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I've had similar experiences with my Redeemer. I've fielded it now in 5 games, always with 5 th/ss terminators. Twice against tyranids, who failed miserably in destroying it. Yay for tyranid anti-tank. Twice against IG; got blown to pieces by melta vets both times. Smoke launchers - they do nothing! And once against eldar, when an autarch destroyed it on the first turn, after my first turn terminator assault fell 3/4 inches short (against the unit which the autarch had joined...). Had smokes on then too. I think I agree with advice on using more than one LR. One just draws all the melta your opponent has and the LR is blown to pieces in no time. With two, there might be a chance at least one of them survives bit longer. Now, I wish I had a second land raider. Also, I've used the flamestorm cannons in one game so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waaanial00 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I've fielded it now in 5 games, always with 5 th/ss terminators. I think I agree with advice on using more than one LR. One just draws all the melta your opponent has and the LR is blown to pieces in no time. With two, there might be a chance at least one of them survives bit longer. Now, I wish I had a second land raider. Problem with fielding 2 LR in this list is that combined with the Terminators you now have 700 points in 3 units. None of which will carry a game on their own. I wont bang on about it but have you been winning the games where your Landraider gets destroyed? It comes down to a point I raised in a thread about drop pod Ironclads, they serve your army really well by taking lots of shots turn 1 and dying however it is soul destroying to see it drop time and time again. Just because it dies doesnt necessarily mean you need to invest time and money in a method to keeping it alive. I personally think 2 Landraiders is a horrible idea in less than 1750 points, simply because it leaves you with so little points to build a list around it which doesnt count on the landraiders surviving. Once you invest nearly half your points in a tactic which relies on a single unit surviving you only need a bit of bad luck for your force to unravel. Wont bang on about it though. Happy posting. Wan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I usually ensure my Land Raiders survival by taking a Vindicator (w/ Siege Shield) and parking it in terrain. Most people choose to shoot the theoretically weaker armour of the Vindicator, despite the 4+ cover save. It's also cheaper than taking a second Land Raider. For added goodness, take a zappy Predator too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I wholeheartedly agree with taking 2+ Land Raiders in any army that is at least 1,000 points. My personal experience with LRs is that you should take 2 if you bother taking 1. However, I would say that if you only field 1, use Rhinos as mobile shields for your LR. I have 3 Crusaders and I always use at least 2 of them, 3 in 1750+ point games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 A good way to keep that LR safe is to keep it in reserves. This way you gotha do your best to take out his anti-tank by turn two or three, when your land raider enters play. Good way to do this is to present another very dangerous vehicle (such as a vindicator) on the table. Your opponent will prolly blow it up, but by doing so he'll get his melta stuff close to the rest of your army, hence render it vulnerable. And then your LR enters play. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 How did someone blow up a land raider then tank shock the guys who had been inside all on turn 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Alright, sorry for a little confusion there...let me clear it up as best I can. =) I just gotta ask... was that Vulkan list in DPs? The Vulkan guy had chopped up PVC pipes for Drop Pods but they weren't allowed (as this was the World Wide War tournament and it's 50% citadel per model to be legal). The deployment was Spearhead and we both gunned for center map for a "horrendously violent assault". I popped smoke and fired my melta on him...glance, Shaken. He popped smoke and fired on me...Pen, Boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 How did someone blow up a land raider then tank shock the guys who had been inside all on turn 1? This was misleading on my part. Let me try to recap this as best I can. Dawn of War deployment, Annhilation. I went first... I deployed my snipers into a ruin bolstered by my techmarine for their 2+ cover save and long range killyness. Put a ML combat squad in the same building...it was <12" from table edge, but >12" for them to climb down, so I didn't fear them getting routed. The other half of the combat squad was in a Razorback, deployed behind said building. My opponent deployed mid-table, where I had considered deploying but felt a bit exposed as he had 2x the transports I had. T1. My LR was 12" in, fired assault cannons on a combat squad and dropped two marines. T1: My opponent advanded his Rhino from hiding along a road, dumped it's contents which contained a melta-gun. One shot to the face, popped LR...it was Wrecked, not Boomed. My vets deployed with the LR between them and the rest of his army...such that one of the vet models was withing 10" of the table edge. I felt this was reasonable. T2: My Vets were avenged when my other tac squad deployed, disembarked from their Rhino, then rapid-fired said combat squad to vapor. Their Rhino still existed, and I decided to NOT risk charging it with my vets (as it could leave them exposed to fire power). T2: My opponent decides to tank shock my vets. My dice fall twice. Morale Check: box cars. Fall back move: box cars. Gone. What a brilliant time to roll double box cars. >_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 My view on raiders-if you take one, take another. Lancaster's square law is your friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 T2: My opponent decides to tank shock my vets. My dice fall twice. Morale Check: box cars. Fall back move: box cars. Gone. What a brilliant time to roll double box cars. >_< I think you need new dice and a Vindicator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 New dice are a cheap short term solution I think I will try. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 As has been said, land raiders are magnets for melta fire and every time I've fielded mine it nearly always gets targeted because it's carrying such a deadly cargo (usually assault terminators and a chaplain). And rightly so, if it were me I would be trying to stop it as fast as possible as well. So either: take two like some people have said, or don't take it at all and spend all those 250pts on lots more stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 I have an Ironclad Dread yet unpainted, a drop pod in the mail, and I'm eyeballing a scout bike squad for the wonder that is a locater beacon. I figure the scout bike squad can go really, really deep, give the Ironclad Dread a really good position, then pop a transport. Not to mention they'll have an Ironclad in their midst. That should force them to split their fire, allowing my LR to get close enough to do it's job. I like this plan. I have some painting to do. =) ...as for two LRs, it's not that I don't love the idea...it's that I don't have $$$ kicking around to blow on that much tank. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Alright, sorry for a little confusion there...let me clear it up as best I can. =) I just gotta ask... was that Vulkan list in DPs? The Vulkan guy had chopped up PVC pipes for Drop Pods but they weren't allowed (as this was the World Wide War tournament and it's 50% citadel per model to be legal). The deployment was Spearhead and we both gunned for center map for a "horrendously violent assault". I popped smoke and fired my melta on him...glance, Shaken. He popped smoke and fired on me...Pen, Boom. 1) I take it you used PotMS? 2) I take it he had a landraider and did the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 Alright, sorry for a little confusion there...let me clear it up as best I can. =) I just gotta ask... was that Vulkan list in DPs? The Vulkan guy had chopped up PVC pipes for Drop Pods but they weren't allowed (as this was the World Wide War tournament and it's 50% citadel per model to be legal). The deployment was Spearhead and we both gunned for center map for a "horrendously violent assault". I popped smoke and fired my melta on him...glance, Shaken. He popped smoke and fired on me...Pen, Boom. 1) I take it you used PotMS? 2) I take it he had a landraider and did the same? 1. Yes. 2. Yes. The spirit of the machine was sadly on his side. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 For the people that recommend 2x LRs in a single list.. you really have to consider the fact your advice is: Spend roughly a third of your points on two units. I don't know about you guys.. but that's just bad advice. There are SO many ways to distract fire from your Land Raider and for much cheaper alternatives. What if you put your dangerous HQ in a Rhino instead? What about a Ironclad through a Drop Pod? What about a Sternguard squad that just dropped by your opponents armor? The list goes on.. and all of those don't consist of another Land Raider. Drop Podded units offer the biggest shock factor against any opponent. It will certainly take the pressure off your Land Raider. example: I drop next to my opponent's Hammerhead. He has three choices: Move 12" away from my Ironclad and not shoot. Or sit within 6", shoot the Land Raider, and get meltagunned, charged by my Ironclad next turn. (if he didnt blow up already from the Meltagun). His third choice would be to shoot the Ironclad.. which then saves your Land Riader again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Listen to waaanial00 my friend, he talks much sense most of the time, and is spot on the money here. Landraiders dying can play into your hand of course, as they are being shot instead of your transports. It is annoying to lose them so easily (so it seems sometimes), but you can guarantee that the opponent will use his prime anti-heavy armour weapons and units against it and that means you have an element of control. Picture this scenario; Landraider on the far left flank. Rhino full of 10 Tacticals (scoring unit) infront and to the right of the Landraider, rest of your army to the right, including other armoured units. Now consider how the opponent can go for 1 turn kills on the thing? Long range firepower has to fire across the board, increasing the chance of cover saves and block of line of sight to the Landraider. Thing is your opponent often has to deal with the Landraider and its cargo, especially if the objectives are placed within striking distance of it etc. Most importantly, 1st turn deepstrikers can only go in 1 of 2 places without risk, and one is right next to your army waiting to be dealt with easily and the other is the to the front-left and away from your army. Just little bit of food for thought to illustrate the point. But every cloud has a silver lining in 40K ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 My Scenario: Land Raider in the center, A Rhino on each side, a Drop Podded Ironclad that lands by the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 For the people that recommend 2x LRs in a single list.. you really have to consider the fact your advice is: Spend roughly a third of your points on two units. This is why I say the Vindicator (or Predator) would do as good a job. The Vindicator can be cagey and take Cover, the Predator should use range and LOS. Either draws fire off the Land Raider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 roughly a third of your points on two models My friend, I use 2 raiders at 1000 to 2000. Then I take 3. The second has proved invaluable. Play like you've got a pair! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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