dublindawg Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I haven't had a chance to preview the new dex yet, and have the following question: If you were to take a pack of 9 grey hunters and give them a GWPL to lead them would they count as 10 for the purpose of getting the 2nd special weapon? I want to be able to place my GH packs in rhinos and get the most bang out of them. If that is not possible then I guess a special weapon and a PP will have to do for the 9 and then kit out the GWPL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natanael Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 A WG does not count as a 10th GH. Sorry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Danvers Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Alas no, it will count as 9 GH and 1 WG so we can't take 2 special weapons and a WGL. It was something that came up a while ago and was discussed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Yes, it's an interesting way to make you think of your choices. Hence why I am constructing two pack types: fire support with two plasma guns to sit on home objectives or run up after my assault wave and the assaulty pack with a meltagun and wolf guard with thunder hammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Looking at the codex in front of me, it specifically states: "if the squad numbers 10 models, a second Grey Hunter may replace his bolter with a weapon from the above list at no additional cost." So 9 x GH + 1 WGPL = 10 models, ergo second special weapon is granted. Its does not say "if 10 GH's......." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshift Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Hmmm curioser and curioser, i've not heard it put like that before. And I thought the matter had been settled about only 1 special weapon with a 9GH/1WG squad! I guess it comes down to whether or not the attached WG is actually part of the squad or not Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natanael Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Looking at the codex in front of me, it specifically states:"if the squad numbers 10 models, a second Grey Hunter may replace his bolter with a weapon from the above list at no additional cost." So 9 x GH + 1 WGPL = 10 models, ergo second special weapon is granted. Its does not say "if 10 GH's......." True. Hmm. This opens up a lot of stuff, but we should maybe have to see what other ppl say. Maybe it is implied (is that the word?) that is only GHs. But I dont know. If it's a loophole then, well, I might as well use it. Or maybe not. I dont know. And you know what? My codex says the same thing :P +++++EDIT+++++ I just thought of something. Since the WG is not bought to the squad, but rather separeted from his own pack at the start of battle, that would maybe mean that the squad in the list numers 9, but at the start of the battle the WG joins them, and becomes part of the squad. That way, the pack does not number 10 models in the "list building phase", but in the actual battle they does. You get what I'm saying? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Looking at the codex in front of me, it specifically states:"if the squad numbers 10 models, a second Grey Hunter may replace his bolter with a weapon from the above list at no additional cost." So 9 x GH + 1 WGPL = 10 models, ergo second special weapon is granted. Its does not say "if 10 GH's......." When it comes to the special weapon and the 10 model count, I don't think the WG would be counted until the actual WG unit is deployed then you would divy up the WG to the squads. So your GH squad would have to already be on the table before deploying the WG unit was deployed. Thereby before adding the leader to it, the hunters only numbered 9 making your 2nd special weapon an illegal choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Ive learned over the years to really pay attention to wordings as a simple word makes all the difference. Much like the MoTW issue that attacks with this rule are with teeth and claws only, not weapons. I go through and highlight/underline quirks like that in order to catch them and not fall victim to them. There were a few in the last Codex. A WGL armed with a PF and BP/Bolter comes out cheaper in the end as opposed to a regular GH armed the same way, and the WGL gets +1 Attack and +1 Leadership. Why wouldn't you add the guy. He's only 3 pts more than a GH. Now, can I afford the points to add a second PF to the pack on the GH allowed to have it? Time will tell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 But adding the WGL to the pack after deployment on the table doesn't work. How do you do that in a drop pod list? You can't. And to be specific with "Before Battle" scenarios, the way I see it is before the list/battle is chosen, the WGL is added to the pack of 9 GH. Im confident my interpretation is bona-fide and not cheese. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahl02 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 But adding the WGL to the pack after deployment on the table doesn't work. How do you do that in a drop pod list? You can't. And to be specific with "Before Battle" scenarios, the way I see it is before the list/battle is chosen, the WGL is added to the pack of 9 GH. Im confident my interpretation is bona-fide and not cheese. It does work, if your gonna DP your army you have to decide how squads are doing to DP before your first turn, IE does the WG drop pod with the squad or with his WG buddies. So just before the DP is rocketed from the transport thip, the WG would have been assigned to the squad. Not to mention that the WG is initially taken from the WG entry first. Before he's even added to the squad during the "build" phase of your army he's part of their pack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Hmmmmm, Im not 100% sure on either side of this now. Ill ponder this at the gym in a few minutes. Im assuming this was discussed in the HUGE SW thread. What page was it on by chance? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Up in the air as well, in my mind, though common sense directs that the Wolf Guard does not, in fact, constitute a 10th man of the "Grey Hunter" pack, but instead is an assigned sergeant, similar to adding an IC (minus IC rules) to a squad of nine. And if not, I'd be calling a bit of intentional powergaming on this. I think the spirit of the rules might override on this one, which is rare for me to say. However, I look for a clarification, and thanks for spotting this, boys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublindawg Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 That is whats making me scratch my head. When deploying a pack the WGPL is considered part of the unit and must be deployed with said pack and cannot be targeted as an IC, they take the place of a veteran SGT in a normal C:SM squad. However I pulled my old copy of White Dwarf 246 that has a ton of fluff and an article on building and expanding a SW force. In the 1500pt force listed, the WPL's were listed as seperate force entries. If it is still done this way how are the WGPL counted against the force organization; ie: HQ, Elites or Troop. I believe with the old dex, the WPL's could be taken as pairs and count as 1 HQ slot when added to GH packs. Oh, why can't the stores by me have a copy of the new codex. Life would be so much easier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Paraphrasing the important lines, emphasis my own. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders ...Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack from the following list... Grey Hunters If the squad numbers ten models, a second Grey Hunter may replace his bolter with a weapon... In my mind, there are various phases leading up to a game. Army list and creation, pre-battle (considered "before the battle" in my mind) where objectives, sides, and deployment are chosen, and the actual game itself. The way I see it, you write your list, with all Wolf Guard being kept in one (or several) packs. They are not split off yet (although they may be equipped with that in mind). Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are purchased for their points and their equipment sorted out. At this stage, do your Grey Hunters number 10 models? If yes, you may choose a free second special weapon. If no, then you do not. You then arrive to play your game. You detach your Wolf Guard from their packs to join their respective Grey Hunter/Blood Claw/Long Fang/etc. packs. There's also the context to consider. The Wolf Guard are not purchased FOR the Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/etc. packs. They are purchase as part of a specific Wolf Guard pack that counts as an Elite, and are then split off and assigned to other packs. Then again I play by the spirit of the game, and not cold hard RAW (just because the rules allow for abuse does not mean we can or should). This debate will boil down to your interpretation of that key phrase "Before the battle:. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 IMO, it depends on a few things... Can the WGPL leave the squad? Is he considered an IC? Can he be picked out as such? If the answer to the above are all no, then a group of 9GH's and 1 WGPL, constitute 1 squad which numbers 10 members. If that is not the case, then a other sticky issues arise. such as... If he is the sole survivor, does he score? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I would have to say that the entry saying "If the squad..." is a direct reference to the GH squad. and GHs only. the WG has his own entry, and there is no reason why he cant have the second special weapon (other then the fact that he can bring the 2nd PW/PF to the squad.) however you are right in the fact that it doesnt say it has to be gh ONLY. however, i would have to say to keep things fair, and until we have a GW answer, we should play it as 10 GH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 ***INCOMING TRANSMISSION FROM GW*** "Ask your opponent" ***END OF TRANSMISSION*** Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I would have to say that the entry saying "If the squad..." is a direct reference to the GH squad. and GHs only. the WG has his own entry... Actually this made me think... If the WGPL is NOT an IC... Then a squad led by a WGPL cannot embark in a transport. Why? because a transport can only carry a single squad with attached IC's... Since, I would assume that the squad CAN embark in a transport.... Therefore, a WGPL must be considered part of the squad... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I'm going to say no to this question. Why? Because the Wolf Guard is not part of the squad, he is assigned to the squad but not an actual member, and he is not mentioned in the Grey Hunter unit entry which is what you use to determine what options you get. In my own opinion this is almost as stupid as attaching an independent character and saying they are at ten models to gain another special weapon. I know that an independent character can leave and join units at will but to me it is a similar thing. Of course I'm not GW but I would have worded that to specifically say Grey Hunters. I feel people trying to exploit this is a bad thing but that's just my opinion. I'm perfectly happy with the upgrades we can take at nine men and a Pack Leader Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I would have to say that the entry saying "If the squad..." is a direct reference to the GH squad. and GHs only. the WG has his own entry... Actually this made me think... If the WGPL is NOT an IC... Then a squad led by a WGPL cannot embark in a transport. Why? because a transport can only carry a single squad with attached IC's... Since, I would assume that the squad CAN embark in a transport.... Therefore, a WGPL must be considered part of the squad... the entry for the WG says that you may split them off and JOIN them to a squad. this does not make them an IC, or a squad upgrade. what it does is it "gives" them a VetSgt. Ala 3e dex. they are still WG, they do not become a GH (which would give them a much reduced stat line and worthless taking). Which is why I say that we should all wait for an answer from GW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublindawg Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 I am glad that my question has a created such a great debate (at least I think so) and helps with gathering a general view point on the rule. Although I think on here it's about a 50/50 split going either way. I love my cheese but only on pizza and in eggplant rolatini (sp), I think until GW comes out with an errata to put issues like this to rest, having 1 special weapon is the reasonable route to go. This doesn't mean that I won't have extra GH's kitted out for the 2nd weapon should the errata go the other way. It's a good thing I am buying 3 box kits and a battle force box for all the added models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I am glad that my question has a created such a great debate (at least I think so) and helps with gathering a general view point on the rule. Although I think on here it's about a 50/50 split going either way. I love my cheese but only on pizza and in eggplant rolatini (sp), I think until GW comes out with an errata to put issues like this to rest, having 1 special weapon is the reasonable route to go. This doesn't mean that I won't have extra GH's kitted out for the 2nd weapon should the errata go the other way. It's a good thing I am buying 3 box kits and a battle force box for all the added models. well, i have a bunch of guys with extra PWs, i think that i am going to make them a small WG retinue for now, until i get a new box and then have a SS/TH unit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 It will definitely require clarification from GW just to be absolutely sure. I'm just wondering how long it will take them to release it because last time I checked Imperial Guard still hadn't got one. I just wish GW had been a bit clearer in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublindawg Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 It will definitely require clarification from GW just to be absolutely sure. I'm just wondering how long it will take them to release it because last time I checked Imperial Guard still hadn't got one. I just wish GW had been a bit clearer in the first place. Well at least GW is not like WotC and release corrections and errata before the book even on the shelf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179132-grey-hunter-special-weapons/#findComment-2119578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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