Grey Hunter Special Weapons

[Toasterfree]

It will definitely require clarification from GW just to be absolutely sure. I'm just wondering how long it will take them to release it because last time I checked Imperial Guard still hadn't got one.

 

I just wish GW had been a bit clearer in the first place.

agreed, but if you think about it with a logical and clear mind, its in the GH entry, and doesnt say "with additions" so it would have to be max GHs/BCs in order to get the second special weapon. but wouldnt two MG shots be awesome? or how about double flamer???

[Hfran Morkai]

It will definitely require clarification from GW just to be absolutely sure. I'm just wondering how long it will take them to release it because last time I checked Imperial Guard still hadn't got one.

 

I just wish GW had been a bit clearer in the first place.

 

Well at least GW is not like WotC and release corrections and errata before the book even on the shelf.

 

But that is actually arguably a workable system because it prevents people having to change models because the rules have been clarified. They should hopefully be working on it now.

 

And I totally agree with you Toasterfree, it is in the pack entry, the pack comes before the Pack Leader because he needs a pack to work with. It would be awesome certainly, hence why I am going to run two types of squad for two different roles, so I can maximise on firepower in one and have a better combat unit in the other.

[LPetersson]

Well at least GW is not like WotC and release corrections and errata before the book even on the shelf.

 

I would actually quite like that. It would mean that they have Q&A people reading their own material and it would make it look as if they are listening to their customers...

And we would perhaps not have this discussion or the one about Loganwing armies...

 

Anyway, the GH entry says 10 models, so I'm going to let a WGPL be the 10th model until it's FAQed differently.

It makes sense to me as that is how it's written.

[Decoy]

To each their own, LP. I wouldn't mind if you did it, although I don't think you're quite going as the rules intended. Meh. That's not my call, though.

[Marek Grimfang]

I sort of see it as the WGPL is purchased separately yes, but with my intention to specifically add him as the 10th model to the pack, as an upgraded Vet Sgt.

 

However, RAW vs RAI, I do see this possibly as a way to level the ability to take specific choices. If it isn't the way I interpret the rules, I am still very happy with my WGPL model being the PF/PW weilding GH, followed by 2 GHs weilding melta guns.

 

I too play for the spirit of the game, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Im gonna give my local GW a call. Stand by.

[cherrboh]

I would have to say that the entry saying "If the squad..." is a direct reference to the GH squad. and GHs only. the WG has his own entry, and there is no reason why he cant have the second special weapon (other then the fact that he can bring the 2nd PW/PF to the squad.) however you are right in the fact that it doesnt say it has to be gh ONLY. however, i would have to say to keep things fair, and until we have a GW answer, we should play it as 10 GH.

 

if it says "the squad" then i will use the WGPL as a squad member. If GW were going to change a rule from what it was before, and new it was going to be a significant change(i think issue of a possible removable special weapon significant) then they would have worded it as "If there are 10 GH..."

[Marek Grimfang]

So this very question is something being discussed at the store with staff, and there is no current clarification on this from GW, since the codex hasn't officially been released yet.

 

At first the consensus was that yes, the attached WGPL makes the 10th model, and there also allows the 2nd special weapon.

 

However after debates, and looking into how the RAW/RAI could come into play, it seems that RAI would mean 10 GH's per the pack per Troop Choice.

 

Im sort of coming around to this now and it is sitting better with me, not being so muddy.

 

When I look at the Troop Page, there is nothing there as WGPLs as a specific upgrade to the pack. They are just GHs. Thats it. They already benefit from the Bolter/BP/CCW/Counter Attack rules, which in essence grants that PF/PW weilding his attack bonuses.

 

If you want to add the WGPL to the pack and still have 2 x special weapons, that WGPL will become the 11th model.

 

Im happy with that. Totally worth it for the extra melta/flamer/plasma gun.

[lunchb0x]

I agree with the Kanuk, Grimfang, here is why.

 

The entry specificly says "models" not grey hunters. The Wolf Guard section states that for every 5 models you can get a T.Heavy weapon...so you buy 5 and dump one to the grey hunters...do you still get the heavy weapon? I believe we all agreed yes, even though when on the table it will no longer be a 5 man squad. So even with the Wolf Guard being a 4 man squad now they still benefit from the heavy weapon option, and the Grey Hunters still benefit from from having "10" models.

 

If you also look at the other options in the list for Grey Hunters, its specific about a "Grey Hunter may..." for all the cases of the squad, except that one sentence about the "free" special weapon. "If the squad numbers ten models,a second Grey Hunter may replace his bolter with a weapon from the above list at no additional cost." The portion in bold is the only time in the entry that it does not specificly list "Grey Hunters"

 

Though...they did the same thing , list option "model" vs. Marine bit in the Codex: Space Marines...so now I just confused myself.

[dublindawg]

Lunchbox, great viewpoint on the subject, right up to where you confused yourself by looking at the C:SM codex. Go have another ale or 2 and ponder it some more. :D

[Greyshift]

Has anyone who orders WD got theirs yet? If theres a SW battle report the composition of the GH squads and the number of their special weapons will give an insight into GW's intentions before a FAQ is released...

[Brother Amarel]

I'm a little surprised at quite how much debate this has created.

 

A WG is part of the WG unit until he joins a GH unit just before the battle. Buying a nine man unit and then giving them an option that they can only take if they number ten men, on the premise that someone else is joining them later, is just silly.

 

Still, if you are going to do this, then don't forget to not count that WG as part of the WG unit in terms of their own rules for getting special rules (got five WG, but one of them is joining a GH pack? Hey, no 'fifth man' weapon choice for them :D).

 

EDIT:

The entry specificly says "models" not grey hunters. The Wolf Guard section states that for every 5 models you can get a T.Heavy weapon...so you buy 5 and dump one to the grey hunters...do you still get the heavy weapon? I believe we all agreed yes, even though when on the table it will no longer be a 5 man squad. So even with the Wolf Guard being a 4 man squad now they still benefit from the heavy weapon option, and the Grey Hunters still benefit from from having "10" models.

You're counting the same model twice though - once in the 'list-building' phase and then again once he's been split off. That's not how it works; each model is only counted once, otherwise you might as well give every WG a heavy weapon and say that depending on the order you can count them in, they're all the fifth model.

[Hfran Morkai]

I'm a little surprised at quite how much debate this has created.

 

A WG is part of the WG unit until he joins a GH unit just before the battle. Buying a nine man unit and then giving them an option that they can only take if they number ten men, on the premise that someone else is joining the later, is just silly.

 

Still, if you are going to do this, then don't forget to not count that WG as part of the WG unit in terms of their own rules for getting special rules (got five WG, but one of them is joining a GH pack? Hey, no 'fifth man' weapon choice for them :D).

 

Well put, you can't have the best of both worlds.

[DV8]

Absolutely. The key is consistency, and as mentioned before, you count each model once, and ONLY once.

 

You either count it when you build your army list, or you count it as you deploy (the "pre-battle" phase).

 

 

DV8

[Toasterfree]

Absolutely. The key is consistency, and as mentioned before, you count each model once, and ONLY once.

 

You either count it when you build your army list, or you count it as you deploy (the "pre-battle" phase).

 

 

DV8

The problem with this is, you have to buy the 10th GH to get the extra weapon. your not buying the WG from the GH entry. a WG is not a GH, and is not PART of the squad, but ASSIGNED to the squad. he is a WG, not a GH. when you buy that WG you buy it out of the WG entry.

[DV8]

Absolutely. The key is consistency, and as mentioned before, you count each model once, and ONLY once.

 

You either count it when you build your army list, or you count it as you deploy (the "pre-battle" phase).

 

 

DV8

The problem with this is, you have to buy the 10th GH to get the extra weapon. your not buying the WG from the GH entry. a WG is not a GH, and is not PART of the squad, but ASSIGNED to the squad. he is a WG, not a GH. when you buy that WG you buy it out of the WG entry.

 

Read my earlier post to see where I stand.

 

I'm simply refering to consistency insofar as since we don't have a 100% ruling from GW, whichever you play it, play it consistently (re: if you count the WG as the 10th model for Grey Hunters, then Wolf Guard squads must be 5 strong upon deploying to gain access to heavy weapons).

 

 

DV8

[lunchb0x]

You're counting the same model twice though - once in the 'list-building' phase and then again once he's been split off. That's not how it works; each model is only counted once, otherwise you might as well give every WG a heavy weapon and say that depending on the order you can count them in, they're all the fifth model.

 

 

Your comment on giving all models a heavy weapon is just idiotic...i give you a 1/10 for trolling.

 

Why couldnt you count the same model twice? Where does it say they have to count once? or 5 times?

 

He is apart of the squad, check its a 5 man, now he leaves to join a grey hunter squad, its now a 10 model squad, check.

 

Though if he counts for the purposes of a 5 man squad, and is then split off, that would counter the original argument about the grey hunters.

[Toasterfree]

@DV, my bad bro misunderstood.

 

@lunchbox

you are building army first, then deploying. you dont check for the free weapon at deployment, your going to check it at building. as stated by several people, when you buy the WG, he is coming out of the WG entry, and then you ASSIGN him to the GH. the extra weapon is coming out of the GH list, and not the WG list.

[Marek Grimfang]

But now, adding a WGPL with a TDA heavy weapon will essentially count him a a two model choice for terms of taking up space in a transport.

 

Lost my train of thought............

[DV8]

But now, adding a WGPL with a TDA heavy weapon will essentially count him a a two model choice for terms of taking up space in a transport.

 

Lost my train of thought............

 

That would only matter in Drop Pods and Land Raiders. Besides, a model in TDA only counts as two models in regards to taking up space in a transport. They're still only 1 model.

 

He is apart of the squad, check its a 5 man, now he leaves to join a grey hunter squad, its now a 10 model squad, check.

 

If this is how you play, I'd refuse to play you.

 

Though if he counts for the purposes of a 5 man squad, and is then split off, that would counter the original argument about the grey hunters.

 

I don't see how it does, since Grey Hunters can't voluntarily split off. In actual fact, it supports our argument. What you're saying is that the Grey Hunters count as 10 models is entirely dependent on the Wolf Guard being attached to the squad. Well and good. It means that they're only eligible once the Wolf Guard leaves the Wolf Guard pack he was purchased for and is assigned to the Grey Hunter pack.

 

So you have this situation:

 

5 Wolf Guard, rockin out with their badass Assault Cannon. Man this thing is so cool, it goes pewpewpew a lot.

 

9 Grey Hunters are chillin' in the armoury, and you have Bob there holding his Meltagun. Man this thing is gonna pwn some tanks! Timmy beside him is also eyeing a Meltagun, but he quickly does a headcount and sees only 9 guys. Damn I can't take this Meltagun, he thinks.

 

But wait, suddenly Joe from the Wolf Guard says, Oh hey guess what Grey Hunters, I'm totally gonna chill with you guys cuz you guys make good peons! Timmy, go ahead and pick up that Meltagun and you can pwn with Bob!

 

So now you have the 9 Grey Hunters plus Joe the Wolf Guard chilling in the armoury, with Bob and Timmy both wielding Meltaguns.

 

And suddenly the 4 Wolf Guard are going...what the heck Joe? Jack here, wielding the Assault Cannon, does a headcount of his own, sees only 4 guys, and with a sullen look on his face, has to put down his pewpewpew Assault Cannon.

 

 

DV8

[Toasterfree]

i some how think that this thread has become us hitting a dead horse with a stick. much like the all TDA army thread

[DV8]

Not necessarily. The rule can be interpreted two different ways. The key at this point is to play it consistently.

 

You can either treat Wolf Guard assigned to Grey Hunters as part of their pack from the get-go, meaning that Wolf Guard packs must start off much higher to account for Wolf Guard who leave (i.e. you have 3 Grey Hunter packs you want to assign Wolf Guard to, and 1 Wolf Guard pack. Your Wolf Guard pack must start off 8 strong if you want to take a heavy weapon).

 

OR you treat the model requirement for double specials as being Grey Hunters only, and Wolf Guard are attached afterwards (meaning you can have 5 Wolf Guard with a heavy weapon, whereby 3 can then leave to be assigned to Grey Hunter Packs, leaving you a pack of 2 with a heavy weapon, and 3 x 11 strong Grey Hunter packs with double specials...or 3 x 10 strong Grey Hunter packs with only one special).

 

 

DV8

[Brother Amarel]

Your comment on giving all models a heavy weapon is just idiotic...i give you a 1/10 for trolling.

 

Why couldnt you count the same model twice? Where does it say they have to count once? or 5 times?

You accuse me of trolling and then come up with this sentence? Good grief.

 

He is apart of the squad, check its a 5 man, now he leaves to join a grey hunter squad, its now a 10 model squad, check.

WG are bought as part of the WG unit and are assigned to other units during deployment, this is specifically stated. You can not shift them about while building your army list, and adding something to a unit during deployment does not then allow you to get something that you couldn't get when you were creating the list.

[Toasterfree]

He is apart of the squad, check its a 5 man, now he leaves to join a grey hunter squad, its now a 10 model squad, check.

WG are bought as part of the WG unit are assigned to other units during deployment, this is specifically stated. You can not shift them about while building your army list, and adding something to a unit during deployment does not then allow you to get something that you couldn't get when you were creating the list.

 

i give you a 10/10 for making sense!!!

[dublindawg]

Ok, I like DV8 thought process of taking a larger WG pack to still get the heavy weapon for the WG and bring the GH pack up to 10 to take advantage of having 10 and getting the 2nd special weapon. However, until there is a ruling from GW (anyone going to the Game Day there in England please ask this) I am going to stick to the view point that weapon load out is determined when building the list as the WG joins the GH pack at deployment and not in the armory.

 

Would really hate to piss off Jack if he had to leave the Assault Cannon behind. Also, I don't think Joe can tell Timmy to go back to the armory to grab another meltagun as their climbing into the drop pod. Someone might miss the party and be pissed that he missed out on the ales afterwards. :P

[Grey Mage]

IMO, it depends on a few things...

 

Can the WGPL leave the squad?

Is he considered an IC?

Can he be picked out as such?

 

If the answer to the above are all no, then a group of 9GH's and 1 WGPL, constitute 1 squad which numbers 10 members.

 

If that is not the case, then a other sticky issues arise.

 

such as...

 

If he is the sole survivor, does he score?

Yes, he scores. He is part of the squad for all things once hes placed there... in the game. He cant leave it.... and thats how it has worked in the current codex wich had the Exact Same Mechanic.

 

And NO he doesnt count as the 10nth man of the GH pack. Hes not selected from the pack... so when you purchase the squad hes not a part of it yet. You can intend to put him there, but you cannot attach a WG to a pack that does not as yet exist in your army. Again... the mechanic really hasnt changed- and thats how it worked before. Have 10 BCs and a WG? No extra peice of equipment for you.

 

If something seems to good to be true it usually is.