Yet another Daemonic bane

[OwlandMoonGuy]

I’ve heard some more battle reports from the last round of the North American ‘Ard Boyz’ competition this past weekend. Here’s a particularly nasty combination that really spelled doom for one daemon player I heard of:

 

The IG player took:

Allied Inquisitor + psycannon with 2x Mystics

Psyker Battle Squad in Chimera

Master of the Fleet in the command squad

 

Since Fateweaver has no regular armor save he’s 100% vulnerable to Psycannons. The Psyker Battle squad can use their Weaken Resolve power to reduce Fateweaver’s Ld value to 2. Therefore, any unsaved wound he sustains will automatically take him off the table (unless he rolls snake eyes but still...).

 

Add to that the fact that the Mystics can grant their anti-deep strike free shots to any unit within 12”. The IG player just needs to lend that to any tank squadron of choice and bring the rain. Add to those free shots another complete turn of shooting right after and that’s a ton of firepower to content with.

 

The Master of the Fleet goes w/o saying. I’ve heard of enemy players being able to exploiting that rule in their own favor. As in, by purposely keeping squads in reserve knowing that the MoF will push off their arrival to the end of the game. For daemons that’s hardly a boon since ½ the army comes under that affect.

 

That’s some cold hard reality for Daemon players. Anyone have any experience with facing this combo?

 

Just curious. Cheers, -OMG

[Corpse.]

When I get master of the fleet, I just get a couple cheap units to offbalance my army and put 80% or more of it into larger units. Such as 80 daemons in 4 troop squads with two small units of 5 and a cheap herald or somesuch for the other half. And hope I get 3+.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

You'd never heard of this?

It basically boils down to the daemon player practically being unable to win against a good guard list with this.

[antique_nova]

this is how a msytic retinue works, whenever anything ds you roll a 4D6 and see if you can shot it, if you can then your msytic unit can shoot at it, but if you have 2 mystics in the same squad, then you get to nominate a unit wthin 12 of the msytic to shoot for you instead. with a leman russ squadron with plasma cannon galore, i wouldn't even bother playing.

thanks

antique_nova

[OwlandMoonGuy]

You'd never heard of this?

I’ve heard (and well understood) the theoryhammer behind it but this was an actual final round ‘Ard Boyz game. The point being is that the IG unit combination listed above is very common even in a, “take on all comers” style list. In other words, it’s not like this is specifically an anti-daemon build.

 

So as stated, rules bloat has put daemons at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to fighting IG. Unless the Inquisitorial allies rules change, this is just one of those 40K pairing that isn’t going to bode well for daemon players.

 

-OMG

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Yeah, the theoryhammer hold up well even in an all-comers environment.

"Distinct disadvantage" and "not boding well" are understatements, unfortunately.

All he has to do is plop the Inq+Mystics in a Valk and the huge hull gives him a gigantic area of coverage. And things that can DS outside of the mystic radius and still work (fiends, flesh hounds) can't kill both the Valk and Inq in one turn. You'd have to get enough BoTz on the Valk squadron (and yes, it would be a squadron) to pop them all and then kill the Inq some other way. Not very palatable.

[Corpse.]

There is no theory-hammer with game altering effects that can be defended with a decent setup.

 

Masters of the Fleet can sit inside a transport, that hides behind a transport/tank/terrain much bigger then it is and be fine. Then hop in another transport, and in another etc when they become exposed. Add in a medic, and there is sure to be trouble for the destroyed(boom) results.

 

Space Wolves: Tempests Wrath

-Any model deep striking within 24" treats all terrain as difficult and dangerous terrain. Four models can have it and use it in 1k+.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

I think I understand your statement concerning theoryhammer but I’m not 100% sure.

 

That Space Wolf power is not as potent as the IG tactic described above IMO. Considering the infrequency of actually losing a model and then factoring in the INV save in most all cases it won’t cause too much loss. Also, I believe there’s a fairly descent pt. cost to that ability. The chances of finding 4 such equipped pups on the table at once will be slim at best.

 

They have plenty of other new toys to play with. :blink: -OMG

[avatar8481]

Daemons aren't a competitive tournament army, and the only reason they won two years ago is because it took a minute for people to figure that out. This combo is only one part of the reason why, but the fact that every imperial army can take it with DH allies doesn't help.

[Corpse.]

I think I understand your statement concerning theoryhammer but I’m not 100% sure.

 

That Space Wolf power is not as potent as the IG tactic described above IMO. Considering the infrequency of actually losing a model and then factoring in the INV save in most all cases it won’t cause too much loss. Also, I believe there’s a fairly descent pt. cost to that ability. The chances of finding 4 such equipped pups on the table at once will be slim at best.

 

They have plenty of other new toys to play with. ;) -OMG

 

 

No cost really, four 105 point rune pirests (I have the codex) grants 8 powers. Two powers each, no two can be combined. Lots of nasty shooting attacks but they can use two powers a turn if one isnt shooty. They only have one non shooty weapon. The psychic hood power weapon does not need a psychic test like previously rumored.

 

They can have 4 shooty attacks, and still use the 24" bubbles. (In fact they are almost forced to if they want to use the second power, all powers are absolutely free).

 

No, I'm not kidding. I had to recheck to make sure what I remember was correct.

[Vassakov]

Don't forget Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+. In our defence, Rune Priests were an over pointed mess for 9 years, they've learned a few new tricks in their absence!

 

As it is, I don't the Wolves will be that greater problem for Daemons in the grand scheme of things. Bloodcrushers, Bloodletters, Fiends and GD's (Unclean One possibly exempted) will still make a mess of them and as Daemons have no psychic abilities, the Hood is useless.

[avatar8481]

if anything wolves will be MORE susceptible to daemons than vanilla marines because they're more likely to be on foot, and not in tanks (which is still the daemon's greatest bane.)

[OwlandMoonGuy]

No cost really, four 105 point rune pirests (I have the codex) grants 8 powers. Two powers each, no two can be combined. Lots of nasty shooting attacks but they can use two powers a turn if one isnt shooty. They only have one non shooty weapon. The psychic hood power weapon does not need a psychic test like previously rumored.

 

They can have 4 shooty attacks, and still use the 24" bubbles. (In fact they are almost forced to if they want to use the second power, all powers are absolutely free).

I have a copy as well. What you’re suggesting is that an SW player will use up all their HQ slots, pay 400 pts (before wargear upgrades) with the intent on spamming Tempest’s Wrath. Sure, it’s not shooting so it may be a default 2nd choice but Storm Caller isn’t as well and seems to have more overall usefulness. And note that only a Master of the Runes can use two psychic power per turn = an additional 50 pts per model.

 

Also, I’m not sure who’s arguing otherwise, but the statement, “A runic weapon is a force weapon.” C:SW, pg 36 seems fairly iron clad that using it for a potential insta-kill is the use of a psychic power like any other. Not sure why one would use that vs. a Daemon but who knows?

 

So yes, each one gets 2 powers included in their base price but I don’t see this as being a particular issue for Daemon players.

 

-OMG

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Daemons aren't a competitive tournament army, and the only reason they won two years ago is because it took a minute for people to figure that out.

I've never wholly agreed with this statement largely because my own competitive nature won't allow me too. As in, even with a sub-par army, playing skill can outweigh all of GW's lack of balance issues. And then again, when I read results like this: 2009 40K 'Ard Boyz Results it makes me think that in a very short time, rules bloat has already left Daemon armies behind.

 

The fun I have playing daemons will still supersede the evidence that emerges from data like this but still. At some point empirical evidence wins out over personal dogma. There may yet be a few daemonic banes out there in the 40K landscape worth noting.

 

-OMG

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Well, there's the obvious Sanctuary Iwin button, but that's uncommon.

[avatar8481]

I've never wholly agreed with this statement largely because my own competitive nature won't allow me too. As in, even with a sub-par army, playing skill can outweigh all of GW's lack of balance issues. And then again, when I read results like this: 2009 40K 'Ard Boyz Results it makes me think that in a very short time, rules bloat has already left Daemon armies behind.

 

A fair and reasonable position, and I think you're right about the rules leaving daemons behind, but I'd argue that it happened when mech became the preferred army build with the release of 5th (even if it took people a year to figure it out) and not the result of more recent codex creep.

 

And I agree daemons are fun.

[Corpse.]

I goof off with daemons as much as I hate to admit it they are a force that can take games in the first turns or lose almost immediately.

 

Combining spendy units with either high damage low durability or midget damage with high durability or do not count as scoring with deep strike is a difficult hamster to train.

 

The random nature is so random, orks are jealous of us. We should paint everything red so we can die faster! Well, that happens anyways when we deep strike. I almost always have to hide my list or else my opponent wants more terrain. I politely keep a genestealer army sitting beside it and tell the opponent he's facing one of the two. I normally pick daemons, my list sits upside down on the table when we start setting up terrain, otherwise I spam genestealers the rest of the day.

 

 

My tzeentch favored side of daemons have been keeping a steady medium because of the unrequired melee after deep strike and immediate effectiveness upon landing on top of mobile firepower. My poor khorne army, though effective and deadly, suffers more when the enemy over specializes in things like monoliths and drop pods, or they suffer to massed basic fire like a gunline IG army.

 

If I can kill 1/4th or 1/3rd of every units worth when they land, I evened out the playing field. Thats the way I end up handling it. Sadly the deep strike melee armies are not effective for what I face on a weekly basis.

 

 

The slaanesh players who relish the idea of having lots of terrain seems to be making people hesitant to try and push 40% terrain in games with me. (They tend to forget which daemon player has which daemon army)

[Grey Mage]

No cost really, four 105 point rune pirests (I have the codex) grants 8 powers. Two powers each, no two can be combined. Lots of nasty shooting attacks but they can use two powers a turn if one isnt shooty. They only have one non shooty weapon. The psychic hood power weapon does not need a psychic test like previously rumored.

 

They can have 4 shooty attacks, and still use the 24" bubbles. (In fact they are almost forced to if they want to use the second power, all powers are absolutely free).

I have a copy as well. What you’re suggesting is that an SW player will use up all their HQ slots, pay 400 pts (before wargear upgrades) with the intent on spamming Tempest’s Wrath. Sure, it’s not shooting so it may be a default 2nd choice but Storm Caller isn’t as well and seems to have more overall usefulness. And note that only a Master of the Runes can use two psychic power per turn = an additional 50 pts per model.

 

Also, I’m not sure who’s arguing otherwise, but the statement, “A runic weapon is a force weapon.” C:SW, pg 36 seems fairly iron clad that using it for a potential insta-kill is the use of a psychic power like any other. Not sure why one would use that vs. a Daemon but who knows?

 

So yes, each one gets 2 powers included in their base price but I don’t see this as being a particular issue for Daemon players.

 

-OMG

I wouldnt do that even if I know that I was playing Daemons. You dont have to take multiple tests for multiple powers.... so *shrugs* its just area coverage that you gain... and in turn lose alot of potential in your HQs.

 

That being said.... the mystics have to roll to see if your in range, like the old Auspexes- so why not just bombard them with soulgrinders early on?

[Mr Peon]

I know that the Australian Comp circut is a bit different from the US or UK, but over here most Daemon lists are looked at as being over powered if anything. When you look at the basic troop units and compare them in cost to most other codexes, the compare nicely. Look at what we can get for 100 points in an HQ compared to a basic SM chaplin or master of the forge. Compare the 16 points for a marine to the same points for a blood letter, for equal points in each I think that the bloodletter is going to win a equal point squad on squad fight. Sure a large part of your army is going to get totaled early in the game in most cases, and if you fail to get reserves until late in the game then you are going to be in trouble.

 

Only 2 things in the game that we cant take out with 90% of our units are the monolith and a landraider. But with Mc's these are hardly a major problem.

 

I find that most people fear the damage and resistance that a daemon army can have. Sure numbers get hurt by massed fire and things like SM lib's but when we do get to the fight most of our units are going to do well.

[Grey Mage]

MCs in C:Daemons cant really hurt a Monlith- no 2d6 for armor penetration.

 

As for the Bloodletter vs Tac Marine debate, Im not so sure Id put my money on the Bloodletter.

 

BL pops out of the warp- done.

Tac Marine Rapid fires- 1.32hits, .66 wounds, .44 casualties. Or about a 50/50 shot that the bloodletter is dead right there. OR a 1 in 5 shot that it dies to a bolt pistol shot and is then assaulted.

If it survives the bloodletter charges, and likely wipes out the tac marine.

 

Ahh... but then we note that only one BL came out, and you only get half your army.... so what happens when you get two tactical marines firing at the BL that popped out? Well, you get a 9 in 10 chance at a dead BL, and thus you find the problem with many daemon armies- their opponents start out with approximately twice available forces, and if a Daemon player isnt crafty or lucky the enemy should be able to wipe out large sections of his force without issue.

 

And thats why a Bloodletter is perfectly fine at 16pts- because frankly, most of them should die before they hit your lines.