Altered_Soul Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I had an interesting question regarding ruins, Monstrous Creatures, and assaults. My Dark Angels had faced a Tyranid army a little while ago, and we ended up drawing the game because it was a never ended struggle of doom (aka it was a great game and our significant others kept calling us asking when are we coming home). At one point, my Tactical Marines stowed away in a ruins at my objective (capture and control mission, irrelevant here though). He took his Flyrant and assaulted them, quickly reducing my poor soldiers to mince meat in a couple of turns. Now, I had my Marines spread on all three floors of the ruins, so he assaulted everyone on the bottom floor, which is a pretty obvious thing and so on. But recently I thought of an alternative scenario, and I didn't know how it would go down. The ruins in question only had enough space on the second floor to fit a 28mm base, single file along its two walls. The rulebook states that a monstrous creature can only climb onto non-ground level ruins if it can fit his size. Clearly, the base for the Flyrant would not fit. Additionally, in order to assault, you need to be in base to base contact with the targeted unit. If all my Marines were huddled together on the 2nd and 3rd floors, would the Tyrant have been able to engage in an assault against them? Obviously this wasn't the case in my game (as I had models on the ground), but this would an interesting way to deal with some monstrous creatures. Seems fairly cowardly for Marines, but tactically sound. Am I right in this assumption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 RAW... I dont know. Spirit of the game? Id let them with a flyrant or a Carnifex- those things have reach like a T-Rex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferro Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 If all my Marines were huddled together on the 2nd and 3rd floors, would the Tyrant have been able to engage in an assault against them? Yes. Sorry I don't have my book handy, but I recall in the Ruins section a description of this exact situation--none of your models on the ground floor, and no space on the second floor on which to place an assaulting model. The assault can still happen; the assaulter places his models underneath the target unit and you wing it for base-to-base issues. Side note: this also makes it possible for Hormagaunts (Beasts) to engage models hiding out on the 2nd floor (there's a lot of hubbub about how Beasts cannot go up levels in ruins). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altered_Soul Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 If all my Marines were huddled together on the 2nd and 3rd floors, would the Tyrant have been able to engage in an assault against them? Yes. Sorry I don't have my book handy, but I recall in the Ruins section a description of this exact situation--none of your models on the ground floor, and no space on the second floor on which to place an assaulting model. The assault can still happen; the assaulter places his models underneath the target unit and you wing it for base-to-base issues. Side note: this also makes it possible for Hormagaunts (Beasts) to engage models hiding out on the 2nd floor (there's a lot of hubbub about how Beasts cannot go up levels in ruins). Unfortunately, that example you mention relates entirely to squad coherency with regards to models on multiple levels and combat, it doesn't mention anything about coming into combat with models on levels the assaulter can't legally reach to get into BtB with. In fact, even in that example and picture, there are genestealers that had assaulted Marines on the ground level, and the talk is about the marines spread through the ruin (first floor marines are in combat because they are within 2" to the b2b marines, the second level marines are not). Again, I am looking for RAW answers here, as I doubt I would hide my proud Marines like Guardsmen just out of reach of a Tyrant, but its just a scenario I thought up. For sportsmanship I would definitely say they know how to look up, unlike dogs :P. Tangetially: Are Hormagaunts just Beasts or are they additionally Infantry as well? If they are infantry to boot, then they can climb ruins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 BRB pg 85 Ruins and Assaults It is possibe to assault units the level above or below even if the are not actually BtB, but are treated as they were. Also remember that models in the upper (lower ) levels still have to react up to 6" to the assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altered_Soul Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 BRB pg 85 Ruins and AssaultsIt is possibe to assault units the level above or below even if the are not actually BtB, but are treated as they were. Also remember that models in the upper (lower ) levels still have to react up to 6" to the assault. That wording is still fairly vague, and not matching the earlier "must be able to fit on the level to be there" two pages before. Even then, using common sense, if it is interpreted in your post, then a model doesn't have to move an extra three inches to get to my Marines on the first level. Essentially, you are saying a model gets an extra 3" to his assault range if he just says he is assaulting from the floor. Shouldn't they have to technically get to the floor to begin with? I am pretty sure that ruling you mention is in relation to the "safety" of getting models on a floor (like the "tipped models" example), not that you can move any model to the ground floor and say they are assaulting whomever is above even if they were out of range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 BRB pg. 85 ".....,or the space could be very limited on a particular level ,making it immossible to move assaulting models into base-to-base conact with the unit they wish to assault. When this happens, it is perfectly acceptable to place the models as close to their foe as it is safely possible, including the level below or above." The assaulting unit still needs to have the distance to reach BtB contact but does not have to be in BtB. Even if there is no room for the model on the level assaulted. You cannot avoid an assault in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferro Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 There it is, thank you SeattleDV8. And I'm certainly not saying that this grants an extra 3" of assault distance! Absolutely not! But the difficult terrain rolls for assault distance would have to be 3+ at the very least to make "base contact" with the floor above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altered_Soul Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Thanks for the interpretations guys, I hope you all don't think I am trying to bend the rules for a cheese maneuver, if it was possible. I was just playing Devil's Advocate for a seemingly contradictory statement. It just popped up when I was playing and we both knew that monstrous creatures can't get up in ruins unless they can fit, for movement at least as it seems now. We laughed how it seemed I could sequester my "honorable" Dark Angel brethren in the corner of the 1st floor and avoid being attacked by his Tyrant :D. Now here is a question, if the ruins were three stories tall (each floor being 3 inches tall via BRB), and all my marines were on the third floor, would a Monstrous Creature be able to assault them? Assuming the same scenario as above (that a MC could not fit on each floor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferro Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Now here is a question, if the ruins were three stories tall (each floor being 3 inches tall via BRB), and all my marines were on the third floor, would a Monstrous Creature be able to assault them? Assuming the same scenario as above (that a MC could not fit on each floor). Yes. You are simply showing the courtesy of not making your opponent risk his model by precariously placing it where it may fall. You are a good sport and a consciencious player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altered_Soul Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Yes. You are simply showing the courtesy of not making your opponent risk his model by precariously placing it where it may fall. You are a good sport and a consciencious player. Thanks for the compliment (or the inferred compliment :P), but playing devil's advocate, if he is out of 6" charge range with the MC, and he can't move closer to get within charge range (per Ruins rules and Monstrous Creatures), doesn't that mean he can't charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 In that case it would be unable to assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altered_Soul Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 In that case it would be unable to assault. Hmm, very interesting potential of using some Cowardly Space Marine tactics against MCs and Dreads. I don't seem to come across a ton of 3 story buildings, mostly 1 and 2. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 actualy you need a 4 story building, as the MC will arleady be on the first floor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altered_Soul Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 actualy you need a 4 story building, as the MC will arleady be on the first floor I am using proper building titles :). The MC is on the ground floor, my Marines would, in their infinite cowardice, be on the third floor. _3__<'Green' marines _2__ _1__ _0__< Unfortunate MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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