Lord Rao Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I know everyone (incl. me) is going on about the great customisability of the Wolf Guard aquads. They can take practically any armour or weapon in the dex, and are by far the most adaptable unit in 40k at this point. However, that is both a hindrance and a help. For instance, equipping your WG with Jump Packs or Bikes makes them technically a Fast Attack choice, though they still take up their original Elite slot. In a 'nilla SM list, the jump pack veterans (Vanguard) are at least a FA choice. Since Elite slots are at a premium in the new SW dex (much moreso than FA slots, imo), this isn't so great as I first assumed. I know the fact that you can distribute your WG among several squads counts for a great deal, but still... Anyone agree with this? LR Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Take Logan Grimnar and let the awesome begin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadir Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Yeah. But our Guards are just more Elite than the others, so the do not count as a FA slot. ANd it would be unballanced, when we would be able to field fast attack squad with 10 thunder hammers and combiflamers, or combimeltas and frost blades and... hmm that is realy nice idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Not to mention that they become freakin' expensive when you tack on the jump packs or bikes! I just don't see how WG with jump pack could be a viable unit. Way too much of a point-sink. At bear minimum we're talking 129 points and that's for three guys with no upgrades! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 And don't forget they can't share wargear combinations. So you can really tool out one or two for a couple of really pricey guys, or split that cost across all the WGs to have a nice variety and not break the bank on points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 And don't forget they can't share wargear combinations. So you can really tool out one or two for a couple of really pricey guys, or split that cost across all the WGs to have a nice variety and not break the bank on points. i believe that rule only applies to the characters, not the unit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I know everyone (incl. me) is going on about the great customisability of the Wolf Guard aquads. They can take practically any armour or weapon in the dex, and are by far the most adaptable unit in 40k at this point.However, that is both a hindrance and a help. For instance, equipping your WG with Jump Packs or Bikes makes them technically a Fast Attack choice, though they still take up their original Elite slot. In a 'nilla SM list, the jump pack veterans (Vanguard) are at least a FA choice. Since Elite slots are at a premium in the new SW dex (much moreso than FA slots, imo), this isn't so great as I first assumed. I know the fact that you can distribute your WG among several squads counts for a great deal, but still... Anyone agree with this? LR Technically... what? What are you talking about? Why in heavens name would they be a FA choice just because they have a jump pack. This is the first Ive heard of any such nonsense. I can only assume your speaking figuratively, and in that case I disagree. Frankly I think theyre just fine and dandy- its worked well this last decade, and it will probly work fine now. My only complaint is the lack of a Ven-dread HQ. The ability to give all my squads seargents and then take a kick-ass elite squad from the same pool seems just wonderful to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 And don't forget they can't share wargear combinations. So you can really tool out one or two for a couple of really pricey guys, or split that cost across all the WGs to have a nice variety and not break the bank on points. i believe that rule only applies to the characters, not the unit That is correct; the rule for requiring different Sagas, Psychic Powers, and Wargear Combination applies to ICs only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Not to mention that they become freakin' expensive when you tack on the jump packs or bikes! I just don't see how WG with jump pack could be a viable unit. Way too much of a point-sink. At bear minimum we're talking 129 points and that's for three guys with no upgrades! Hmm, not seeing how they are any more expensive than a SM equivalent here. A squad of five naked WG with jump packs is only 125, a Vanguard Veterans squad with jump packs is 175. Looking down equipment costs we can see that WG have powerfists five points cheaper (more expensive storm shield but five point less expensive thunder hammer interestingly). To kit out squads from each to compare: 10 Wolf Guard - Jump Packs - 6 w/ Power Weapons - 1 w/ Pair of Wolfclaws - 2 w/ Powerfists - 1 w/ TH & SS Comes out to 430 points. 10 Vanguard Veterans - Sergeant: Pair of Lightning Claws - 6 w/ Power Weapons - 2 w/ Powerfists - 1 w/ TH & SS Comes out to 525 points. In comparison the WG unit is 100 points less but loses the somewhat limited ability to assault from deepstrike if it gives up shooting and running. On the other hand it gets better equipment in the form of wolf claws and the ability to be counted as troops in certain situations. Now these are two tooled-up and expensive squads but when it comes down to it a WG jump pack trooper is five points less than a Vanguard Vet for most of the same basic utility and the ability to become a troops choice. It helps that the most used choices (PWs and PFs) are discounted. You pay a bit more for the TH & SS combo or if you tend to use the SS as a secondary a lot you will be losing out a bit but the savings per trooper on many weapon combos tends to see this become less important. As for bikes the only SM-equivalent unit that can take bikes is the command squad and that ends up costing an average (as it includes a champ and apoth) about 41 points per biker. So while the WG lack the outright utility of having certain specialist units in the squad they make up for it with killiness. Hell normal bikers (you know the ones with one less attack, one less leadership and less assault options) cost 30 points. So I really don't get the "too expensive" argument. WG in jump packs are cheaper than the SM equivalent and get loads of discounted options. WG on bikes are only five points more than standard bikes and, again, come with loads of options. WG in Terminator armour are seven points cheaper than a standard terminator and using an equivalent loadout only three points more (but that includes counter charge which is an excellent ability on terminators). No matter which way I look at it WG are affordable, versatile and deadly. They give the elites of other armies a run for their money and I would take them any day over Vanguard who pay an arm and a leg for one of the riskiest abilities in the game. If they drop in then they have a one in three chance of scatter where the average distance is seven inches. If that happens to brush up against the intended victim then welcome to s**t creek, sorry all out of paddles. :P The best bit is that you can have all this in a freaking troop choice. Brilliant entry and brilliant unit no matter which way you slice it. If Grey Hunters are touted as the best troop choice in the game then I say Wolf Guard have a good shot at best elite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreadmad Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 wolf guard on bikes are only 5 points more than standard bikes i dont know where you got that from, an un-upgraded WG on bike is 53 points :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Not to mention that they become freakin' expensive when you tack on the jump packs or bikes! I just don't see how WG with jump pack could be a viable unit. Way too much of a point-sink. At bear minimum we're talking 129 points and that's for three guys with no upgrades! Hmm, not seeing how they are any more expensive than a SM equivalent here. A squad of five naked WG with jump packs is only 125, a Vanguard Veterans squad with jump packs is 175. Looking down equipment costs we can see that WG have powerfists five points cheaper (more expensive storm shield but five point less expensive thunder hammer interestingly). Ronin, Your points are way off: its 125 points just for 5 Jump Packs; that doesn't include the 18 points per model for the actual Wolf Guard themselves. Actual cost is 215 points before upgrades, which is 40 points more than Vanguard Veterans. WG on bikes are only five points more than standard bikes and, again, come with loads of options. As already pointed out, Wolf Guard on Bikes are 53 points each, which is significantly more than either standard Codex Space Marine Bikers or our own Swift Claws. WG in Terminator armour are seven points cheaper than a standard terminator and using an equivalent loadout only three points more (but that includes counter charge which is an excellent ability on terminators). This part is correct. The lesson to be learned here is that Wolf Guard are very reasonably priced as Power Armored, or Terminator Armored infantry, but the cost skyrockets when you try to give them the mobility of Bikers or Jump Infantry. Thankfully, they get Rhino or Drop Pod transports at the same cost as all other infantry units. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Ah bugger, so you're right. I read the "x points per model" as changing the overall cost for some reason. The marine codex uses a +X points. Switching between the two codices must have had me mixing the formats in my head and seeing the flat listed cost as a change in base price for some reason. Mea culpa. ;) Yes at those prices they are a tad expensive to say the least and probably best used when you have a specific strategy with them. They at least get a lot of their gear cheaper than average so the savings can still be made up between expensive units (especially using powerfists and power weapons). With both choices being five points less than comparable units in the other codex the high initial cost can at least be mitigated. Still, something of a screw up with me reading the formats incorrectly. At least I've learned that lesson before I've actually used high mobility versions of the WG in-game. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2121955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmichi Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 And don't forget they can't share wargear combinations. So you can really tool out one or two for a couple of really pricey guys, or split that cost across all the WGs to have a nice variety and not break the bank on points. i believe that rule only applies to the characters, not the unit That is correct; the rule for requiring different Sagas, Psychic Powers, and Wargear Combination applies to ICs only. Oh, well that's wonderful news! The explanation in the other thread lead me to believe it applied to all special characters, including Wolf Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2122127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 and i was just thinking this morning about how cool it would be to have a bolter armed assault squad. I may have to do one with the WG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2122128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I had been confused as to the wargear rule (that other topic answered nothing for me) and I also thought that WG were a bit pricey but atfer seeing the "math" laid out before me I have to admit... Our WG have it made, cheaper than SM units of equivalent killability and able to be troops with Grimnars leadership. Seems soild to me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2122188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I had been confused as to the wargear rule (that other topic answered nothing for me) and I also thought that WG were a bit pricey but atfer seeing the "math" laid out before me I have to admit... Our WG have it made, cheaper than SM units of equivalent killability and able to be troops with Grimnars leadership. Seems soild to me... the wargear/psychihc powers rule:simplified you cannot have two WL with FB/SS/WTN/PB/RA/Warrior Born you cannot have two RP with JoWW/Smite you CAN however have two WL: one with TH/SS/WTN/PB/RA/Warrior Born one with FB/SS/WTN/PB/RA/Bear you CAN have two RP: one with JoWW/Smite one with JoWW/any other power Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2122241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Thats the best breakdown of that rule Ive seen so far... fantastic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2122287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 your welcome. and that is the same pretty much for all ICS, and is NOT limited to just those, keep in mind that between any TWO ICs you cannot have the same load out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179293-wolf-guard-modifiability/#findComment-2122290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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