Hackbar Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Question is in the title. I want to start a GK-focused DH army since they're what got me into 40k to begin with before I got sidetracked by the 5th ed SM codex. I'm shooting for 500 points since I'm on a budget and, well, that's all any of my friends can muster up for me to play against. Problem is one of them has a big nasty hive tyrant with the horror and toxic miasma and warp field and the bone sword and lash whip combo, as well as a blast ranged weapon of some kind. I'm trying to figure out how to kill this beastie. A lone model with T6, 2+ armor, and a paltry 6+ invul is normally something I would consider easy game for a minimum-size Hero+Retinue, but the -1A and WS combined with the Tyrant's I6 does not present favorable mathhammer for that approach. Switching the terminators to TH+SS would help some, but that pretty much saddles me with a very expensive single-purpose squad, not to mention the nightmare of converting TH/SS GKTs (I want to make some, but it's a conversion I want to look damn good if I do it) A dreadnought might do it, but I can't imagine fitting one with TLLC in a 500 point game would be wise, or even feasible. Stormtroopers with Plasma or Melta sounds effective, and I do plan to have some Guard (mostly Catachans) someday so Stormies are something I don't mind buying. The problem is they're squishy and cost a lot of real money for what they're worth in points and capability. I imagine I could buy a minimum-size ST squad with melta, plasma, and a PP, but that would cost a fair bit of cash, and get probably 1 or 2 rounds of shooting against the tyrant at best before being wiped out. Also, such a focused and essentially suicidal unit seems like it would be little help against a horde of boyz, for example, and I would ideally like to be able to play DH against all of my friends. (2x nids, 1 ork, 1 tau, and maybe eldar and daemons if they ever build/buy the rest of their armies) At this point, I open the floor to suggestions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
revnow Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Well, since you're clearly not playing with any limitations, this one is easy. HQ BC 61 Troops (5) ISTs 50 (5) ISTs (Melta, Flamer, Rhino (EA Smoke)) 123 Heavy Support Land Raider Godhammer (Extra Armor, Smoke, DT Mods) 263 497. Yeah, it's a dick move, but no more than playing with a tooled out Flyrant. It'll drop that puppy in 2 turns, maybe 3. Just make sure to move 6" away from it every turn, and if it gets close enough >6" to keep it hitting on 6s. The rhino can hang around an contribute to the wounds with the melta if you want. At that point level the Flyrant is going to be a big chunk of the list, and probably the only part that deals with Raiders. Rock, Paper, Land Raider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2121766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 I hadn't even thought of that. That does, however, lead into some other problems: The only Land Raider I have is built (poorly, was my first 40k model) as a Crusader, and I don't plan on buying another until I can afford the Space Marines Strike Force set since it's a pretty good deal and contains a ton of models I want, and I don't want to shell out for the extra land raider out of impatience. I was hoping to put together a 500 point list for $100 to $150 plus the GKTs I already have if possible. :P I'm currently considering taking 2 minimum size PAGK squads (which should have no problem with 8 gaunts, 8 hormagaunts, and a zoanthrope or biovore, right?) and a minimum size BC+Retinue with the retinue remodeled to have TH+SS. I've even got bitz I can use for the Thunder Hammers, though the Storm shields will require some creative thinking on my part. Do you think that'll do it? And to be fair, I don't know if he realizes what an ass he is for taking something so tough at 500 points. Was his first game, though, and it's literally the same HQ he plans to use at 1k and up, just with more supporting units. How does this look: HQ: BC+3 Terminators (2 TH+SS, 1 NFW+SB) Troops: Justicar+5 Troops: Stormtroopers x5, 1 Plasma, 1 Melta, 1 vet w/ Plasma Pistol or Combi-Plasma. or Troops: stormtroopers x8, 1 plasma, 1 melta (would do double plasma, but $22 is a lot to pay for only using 1 model out of the set) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2121783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The downside to that list is that you will be pretty slow and vulnerable to vehicles. I'm a big fan of ISTs for many reasons, the biggest being that they are very fluffy. In 5th, they allow you to take melta, so now more people like them. If you have a Dreadnought or plan on getting one, it's not that hard to squeeze one in if you take ISTs. Jimminy, revnow stuffed a LR in. You could try: BC w/ Psycannon 6x IST with 2x plasma in Rhino w/ smoke 7x IST with 2x melta in Rhino w/ smoke Dreadnought w/ DCCW, EA, and multi-melta or plasmacannon to taste. That leaves a few points to add EA to the Rhinos or add smoke or change the Dread's weapons. I gave one squad plasma so you would only need two packs of special weapons teams. I thought you might be able to save some money with the Kasrkin models because the special weapons packs just have a melta and plasma gunner, but the basic hellgun Kasrkin troopers are more expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2121830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 well, to kill a Hive Tyrant, your best bet is the Grand Master. His weapon is one of the very few force weapons that still work on EWs and big bugs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2121943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The land raider crusader is better than the normal raider anyway. Keep it moving more than 6" every turn and don't get out. The DH LRC can fire the hurricane bolters and the multi-melta every turn no matter how far you move. The flyrant doesn't have good odds to kill it if you keep moving like that so just dakka it to death. When your Tyranid friend realizes that playing hero-hammer is boring -- and that you've got the ultimate counter to it -- maybe you'll get more interesting games in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2122328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 The downside to that list is that you will be pretty slow and vulnerable to vehicles. The most threatening vehicle any of my friends own right now is a Pihrana. I think the Ork player has a Trukk built. @Caloth: I'm nervous sending a 3 wound unit with, at best, a 4+ invul save up against something with Implant Attack and S6, especially when I'm relying on hitting on a 4+ (with 1 less attack), then wounding on a 4+, and then after that also passing a psychic test, all in one round of combat. (no Shadow, fortunately) Also, I'm not sure I want to deal with the rules lawyering around the old wording on the GM's NFW. My friend will likely argue till his lungs burst that I have to use the new Force Weapon rules since they're newer. Might try the Crusader, but the more I think about it the Dread will probably lose to the tyrant in melee worse than a lone Hero. Idea: What if I took a BC, a few Stormies, and a large PAGK squad with a Thunder Hammer on the Justicar to act like a hidden power fist? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2122428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Dreadnoughts can't beat up any MCs except, maybe Tomb Spyders. Tyranid MCs will Whallop dreads every time. If you don't take the land raider, here's what I'd take. [291 pts] BC, 5 GKT retinue [128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x plasma; Rhino, extra armour, smoke [70 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x plasma Total: 489 pts (Don't spend any more points, I'll tell you why in a sec) Shield your GKTs with the IST units. When you get close to Tyrant, or it gets close to you, sacrifice an IST unit to it (that's why they're minimal) and arrange for a double double-tap with the plasmas followed up by a counter-charge from the GKTs. Even with the Tyrant going first, it isn't likely to smoke more than 3 of your GKTs -- and that many only if you're very unlucky. That leaves you with at least the BC and 2 GKTs with 10 Str 6 attacks from their charge. 5 will hit, 2.5 will wound. And with the 2 wounds you should have scored with the plasmas, it's dead. And you'll still have most of your army left to clear off the remaining 'nids. Heck, you might even be better off dropping the Rhino and getting another GKT in the unit. Or perhaps dropping the Rhino and adding a unit of 5 ISTs with 1 plasma (491 pts; damn extra point for the BC!). That would give you three plasma units to sacrifice to a rampaging tyrant or an additional GKT for extra added combat insurance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2122458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 The problem with that plan is that he has the lash whip, so everyone is at -1A, so even on the charge It's onlt, what 6 or 7 attacks? I'd need great roling for either the double-tap or the charge to kill it without massive casualties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2122535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 The problem with that plan is that he has the lash whip, so everyone is at -1A, so even on the charge It's onlt, what 6 or 7 attacks? I'd need great roling for either the double-tap or the charge to kill it without massive casualties. Heh. Are you sure your opponent is playing fair? A hive tyrant with a lash whip and bone sword has, at most, 4 base attacks (provided his other weapon symbiote is scything talons). So let's assume the tyrant gets 5 attacks on the charge against your GKTs and that the tyrant has adrenal glands +1 WS as well so it gets all its attacks at WS 6. That adds up to just 1.85 dead GKTs on average when the Tyrant charges. Hardly awe-inspiring. As I said, the Tyrant needs a good bit of luck to kill as many as 3 GKTs even assuming a charge. Besides, you're going to get the charge in because you're not going to let the tyrant charge and eat anything but ISTs, right? Which means the Tyrant kills between 1-2 GKTs when you charge (it's only got 4 attacks now, at most, and the actual average is 1.48 dead GKTs), leaving the BC and 4-5 GKTs left. Even with the lash whip (I did forget about that), you'll still get 9 attacks back with a BC + 3 GKTs, inflicting an average of 1.875 wounds in return. Probably 2 wounds, that is. You should also have inflicted two wounds with plasma. Thus, one dead tyrant. It's worth noting that I assume only one volley of plasma from just one unit of ISTs. If you maneuver correctly, you should actually be able to get one volley in before a unit of ISTs get eaten. Try and stay about 19" away to force the tyrant to get within double-tap plasma range. Even if you can't, if the tyrant is outside of 18" and wants to eat you up close and personal -- or shoot you with Warp Blast -- it's going to have to get within plasma range of 24". Just sit still in a castle and shoot it. Make it take wounds before it gets to you. Then countercharge in to finish it off. This is a teensy points game. All you have to do to win is kill the tyrant. Easy-peasy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2122562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think the non-crusader route is best. I have a feeling that your friend is more likely to see reason and continue playing if a lot of troops take his Tyrant down. A crusader may just discourage him out of the group as an arms race he can't win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2122911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Orphen Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Here's a solution: don't target the Tyrant. Instead, kick your friend in the groin. Fully-tooled Tyrant in a 500 point game? He deserves it. If I ever did that, I hope someone would kick ME in the groin. Then, have a nice conversation about the merits of playing for fun over playing to win. 40k is kind of rough at less than 1000 points, doubly so for GKs. I'd suggest looking into using the rules for "Combat Patrol"/"40k in 40 minutes", only increasing the points count to 500. The ruleset is available in the 4th Edition rulebook, and I am sure you can find the rules online with a quick Google search. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2124998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hackbar Posted September 26, 2009 Author Share Posted September 26, 2009 Here's a solution: don't target the Tyrant. Instead, kick your friend in the groin. Fully-tooled Tyrant in a 500 point game? He deserves it. If I ever did that, I hope someone would kick ME in the groin. Then, have a nice conversation about the merits of playing for fun over playing to win. 40k is kind of rough at less than 1000 points, doubly so for GKs. I'd suggest looking into using the rules for "Combat Patrol"/"40k in 40 minutes", only increasing the points count to 500. The ruleset is available in the 4th Edition rulebook, and I am sure you can find the rules online with a quick Google search. Again, I don't think he's taking the tyrant to be an ass. He built it to fit his 1000 point army, built the model for WYSIWIG, and then made a 500 point army to fit it so that he could play the game without building all those models first. It sounds like he's going to try a broodlord or warriors as an HQ for our next match, and it'll be sooner than expected, so all of this advice may go unused for a bit. As it stands, though, I'll be heading out for a vacation soon and when I get back I'll be able to run up to 1k daemonhunters all of a sudden. Nobody expects the God-Emperor's Inquisition, indeed! Edit: for those wondering I ordered 2x PAGK boxes, 2x PAGKw/psycannon, 2x PAGK blister packs, 2x Stormtrooper squad ( I like the look of the non-kasrkin models) 1x stormtrooper special weapons (plas, melta, flamer, GL) and 1x of the stormtrooper sergeant with bolter+PP, mostly because I love the way he looks. I figure with that plus my 6 GKT (1 BC, 1 psycannon, 1 incinerator, 3 normal) I can make a pretty good mix of different lists at 500 pts and can stuff everything in there to make it up to 1000, maybe 1250 if I go nuts on wargear. I think I'll end up wanting more stormtroopers and particularly more special weapons, but Grey Knights are what sucked me into 40k, so they get all the love for now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2125535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Mel Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Number6, would it not be better to give the GKT thunderhammers? it would not only improve their invulnerable save a bit, but add 2 strength as well. since they're going to strike last anyway? Mel Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2125579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Number6, would it not be better to give the GKT thunderhammers? it would not only improve their invulnerable save a bit, but add 2 strength as well. since they're going to strike last anyway? Mel Sure. But I also don't think it's necessary. He should shoot/beat down the Tyrant as things stand. 99% of the time, what makes GKTs superior is their starndard NFW/SB loadout. This just happens to be that 1% of the time where it's not ideal. Most GK players don't model too many TH/SS GKTs because it's just not necessary to, so I was outlining what you could do with standard GKTs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2126271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 That's a good point. No sense going through the trouble of building an army specifically for one scenario. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2126348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sethis Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Regarding the Force Weapon rules change, the RULE that GW ENFORCES is that Codex beats Rulebook. It's why (apart from Imperial Armor) DH/WH pay 50 points per rhino and 70 for a Chimera. You use the rules as written in the Codex. (Which, by the way, means that the only "Force weapon" out of all of them is one wielded by the Grand Master. Check the Armory page.) I can understand that your opponent isn't *trying* to be unsportsmanlike, just point out to him that it doesn't make for much of a fun game where the only tactic is "Kill the tyrant, yes/no? = Win the game, yes/no?" Maybe ask that he doesn't tool it up so much, relax on the WYSIWYG front, and let him play it with 1-2 morphs instead of all of them! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179311-killing-a-tyrant-at-500-points/#findComment-2127149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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