Thunderwolf Upgrades or Thunderwolf Cavalry?

[Gentlemanloser]

I love Thunderwolves. I hate Bloodcrushers too much not too! ;)

 

I've been considering a Wolf Lord (or Battle Leader) on a Thunderwolf, or an Iron Priest on one (with 4 Cyberwolves in tow!). I've even got a couple of conversion ideas in mind. A Wolf Lord standing next to a Massive wolf for one, a Space Marine riding an Empire's Engineer's Mechanical Horse for the other.

 

But the cost...

 

For the 45 points the upgrade costs, I could (nearly) have one Thunderwolf Cavalry. Add to that the cost of the IC itself, I could get (almost) three Thunderwolves for the price of the single IC.

 

Plus, the Cavalry get an 'extra' wound thrown in for free as well.

 

45 points just seems far too expensive for me, especially without the +1W the Cavalry guys on top of the S, T, A and Rending the IC would get. It's like getting a base 3 Attack Marine for 5 points!

 

I'm torn. :/

[Natanael]

I think 45p are fair, maybe a little cheap. I mean, right now my WL has got FB, SS-loadout, and he is quite good. Sure, he gets killed by power fists and stuff like that, but he gets the job done.

 

With a thunderwolf, on the other hand, he would be immune to the power fists, get S6 thanks to his FB, and the extra attack is always welcome. Not counting that he gets a 12" charge, and rending. I mean, it's a bargain to me. I can get my CC monster in CC a lot faster, and he wounds marines on 2+, kills big monsters fast, since he is I5, and well. With saga of the beastslayer he can kill anything in a single assautl phase. My nurgle friends fear him, and I love to see the their sad face when he hits on 3+, wounds on 3+, with re-rolls all around.

 

I say it's a bargain. My only worry is fast MCs like DPs, and Railguns.

[Gentlemanloser]

You can't use your FB with the Rending from a Thunderwolf.

 

And if you really want PF immunity to ID, you can get the cheaper Saga of the Bear for EW.

 

Or you can use 2/3 Thunderwolf Cavalry for the same points, and still be immune to PFs. ;)

[Natanael]

I use my FB without rending, then ;)

 

Yes, I can get EW for 10 points less, but I lose my 12" charge and my T5, my extra attack and extra S.

 

But then I havent got my super-killy, heroic, HQ, do I? ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I know! But I'm not sure I can make that trade off.

 

Ignoring Saga for the minute, let's look at your WL example.

 

WL, FB, SS, TW

 

Is approximately (I'm not sure of the PA costs) 190 points? Let's round up to 200, giving leway for things like a Wolf Tooth or Melta Bombs (Or Saga!). He's got;

 

5 x S6 Power Weapon attacks (At WS6). With 3 Wounds.

 

For those points, you could have 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry. They would give you;

 

16 x S5 Rending attacks (At WS4). With 8 Wounds.

 

Granted, no Invulnerable save, and assuming a SS is 30 points for TWC, yould only get two of them for your 200 points. But they'd give you;

 

8 x S5 Rending attacks (at WS4). With 4 wounds.

 

In both cases, you get more attacks, and more ablative wounds, by choosing TWC over an IC with a TW.

 

:/

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Why wouldn't you get rending?

I thought it was you gain rending in close combat while riding a thunder wolf. And we all know how good assault cannons are it would be just like having that, but in close combat.

[Gentlemanloser]

As far as I'm aware, it's the same as gettign rending through the Mark fo the Wulfen. It can't be combined with any wargear/close combat weapons.

 

At least that's what the rumours for Thunderwolves mention.

 

If anyone could yay/nay that, that would be awesome!

[Natanael]

But you don't get a VERY wolfy hero...

 

I know that It might be more cost-effective to get your TWC, but as I see it, they cant handle everything that the WL can. HE really can take on everything (mostly due to a lot of high S attacks at I5), while the TWC strikes after DPs and other killy chars.

 

Also, you have to take an HQ, and I want to make him as good as possible. He is the greatest hero of my great company, right?

 

And about the rending thing, I thought there were no rending for chars on TW. But if you cant make attacks with your usual equipment, while on a TW, I wont take him. I WANT MY FROSTBLADE :)

[Oldenhaller]

Effectoively you're paying the points to upstat your already doomingly hard wolf lord. Adding an additional 7-12" move every turn to him is worth 2/3rd's the points alone but when combined with the stt upgrades I'd say it's a bargin.

 

In all these things however you have to look at it in combination with all of the rest of your army. Alone he'll get hurt by your opponent's big assault unit or big guns. If you intend to run him what will his ablative be? If you do choose to run cav instead of him what is your hq choice and why? Remember aswell that for a cheap option you can get your iron priest and add him to the unit as he's an independent character who'll add 4 more thunderhammer attacks.

 

Consider the big picture little grasshopper....

 

;)

 

~L

[dublindawg]

Can a rune priest take a TW? I plan on going with a WL on TW with 2 TWC supporting him and a pack of wolves to act as a meat shield. But if a rune priest can get a TW and use that power that will allow them to move around under protection would be a great way to go.

[Gentlemanloser]

RP can't take TW.

 

Remember aswell that for a cheap option you can get your iron priest and add him to the unit as he's an independent character who'll add 4 more thunderhammer attacks.

 

For the 95 points a base IP on a TW is, you could have nearly two more TWC.

 

Ablative wounds is exactly the problem. If you don't run your WL with either more Cavalry or Wolves, you lose the 12" charge and fleet.

 

If you run him with Wovles, they're T4 and he suffers from Majority Toughness, and (potentially) loses ATSKNF...

 

You could stick him in a IP on TW squad, with 4 Cyberwovles (T5 so no more Majority problems). But that would rock you the cost of nearly 3 TWC. So why not use them instead?

 

So if you attach him to a squad of TWC, why not just drop him for at least another 2?

 

Use something else for your HQ, it's not like we're at a lose for awesome choices! :D

 

I suppose the one option would be to run a WGBL on a TW just for Saga of the Hunter, and outflank him on his own.

 

Now if the cost of a TW upgrade was a little less, or it at least gave the +1W the normal TWC get, I wouldn't be in this dilemma! ;)

[DV8]

Why wouldn't you get rending?

I thought it was you gain rending in close combat while riding a thunder wolf. And we all know how good assault cannons are it would be just like having that, but in close combat.

 

You only get Rending when riding Thunderwolf Mounts for any attacks that (and I quote) do not use a special close combat weapon.

 

 

DV8

[Voracioustigger]

I think people are truly underestimating power weapons and OVER estimating rending (oh and COMPLETELY ignoring I5!!)...

 

Wolf Lords on a wolf can get 7 S6 attacks on the charge ignoring armor... Even a (normal) Carnifex will take 2-3 wounds from that! What will the 3 TW Cav do? 18 attacks, 9 hit, and cause 1-2W total even with rending!

 

Or, if you really want a beast... How about TH/SS w/ Saga of the Warrior born? That's a one man wrecking crew right there.

 

I agree... MOST of the time, TW cavalry will be better, but there are definitely certain loadouts that are useful.

[Toasterfree]

how bout a WL on TW with FB and SS saga of warrior born. that is a wrecking house! then you take the 5 TWC that you can get, add a TH/SS to one guy NOTHING would live through that!!!!!! its one broken unit, but its one expensive unit at that.

[Oldenhaller]

with the t-hammer you need runic armour and support or he'll get sniped....it's an amazing combo tho

 

~O

[Toasterfree]

with the t-hammer you need runic armour and support or he'll get sniped....it's an amazing combo tho

 

~O

you cant snipe a member out of a squad unless you have an assasian sir

[dublindawg]

with the t-hammer you need runic armour and support or he'll get sniped....it's an amazing combo tho

 

~O

you cant snipe a member out of a squad unless you have an assasian sir

 

Or you are fighting a C:SM force and they place Sgt Helion in the scout squad.

 

It might be a very costly unit, but I plan on taking the WL on TW with a FA and SS (I am caving on this item) teamed with 2 TWC. I might even consider adding an IP to the unit so that he can bring cyber wolves with him as a built in meat shield.

[Toasterfree]

with the t-hammer you need runic armour and support or he'll get sniped....it's an amazing combo tho

 

~O

you cant snipe a member out of a squad unless you have an assasian sir

 

Or you are fighting a C:SM force and they place Sgt Helion in the scout squad.

 

It might be a very costly unit, but I plan on taking the WL on TW with a FA and SS (I am caving on this item) teamed with 2 TWC. I might even consider adding an IP to the unit so that he can bring cyber wolves with him as a built in meat shield.

your lord can have two fen wolves.

[Oldenhaller]

with the t-hammer you need runic armour and support or he'll get sniped....it's an amazing combo tho

 

~O

you cant snipe a member out of a squad unless you have an assasian sir

 

 

Lol...sorry - by sniped I was meaning he'll get shot aa lot when he's wandering about on his own...needs a meatshield which can keep up so fenrisian wolves which are squishy but numerous or thunderwolves which are tough but low on numbers

 

~O

[Demogerg]

The Iron Priest is not an independant character and thus cannot join other units. this is ofset by his ability to take Thralls and Wolves as part of his unit.

[Oldenhaller]

I'd be supprised if he's not, all tech marines are independent characters until you give them servitors...servitors die they go back to being an IC. In addition to that if he's not an independent character then saga of the iron would be rubbish as +D3 of movement applies to the tank and the one guy it's transporting. Will check the book tonight

 

~O

[Gentlemanloser]

your lord can have two fen wolves.

 

Maybe if they were Cyberwolves, it could be worth it. But you'll just lower the Wolf Lords T back to 4 by purchasing them, and (potentially, can someone with better acces to the Codex check this?) lost his ATSKNF.

 

You can use a Special Close Combat Weapon with a Thunderwolf (and the Strength of PowerFists / Thunderhammer will be as much a topic for discussion and FAQing as the T5 versus ID), which makes the 45 points even more expensive! :blink:

 

The I5 of a WL is great, no doubt about it. And it can be great paired with I5 Wolves (from Saga of the Wolfkin somewhere). I just don't see it being more useful than the extra ablative wounds multiple Cavalry would get. Maybe on a WGBL if you outflank him...

 

As far as i'm aware the IP isn't an IC. which makes Saga of the Iron wolf rather /meh. ;)

[Massaen]

I suppose the one option would be to run a WGBL on a TW just for Saga of the Hunter, and outflank him on his own.

 

Nope - at present Saga of the hunter is infantry only!

[Gentlemanloser]

>_<

 

LoL.

 

Oh well.

[dublindawg]

True, I haven't removed them from the options yet. I know he will be wearing runic armor, necklace and a saga of wolfborn (bonus attacks on next assault from kills). I would prefer to keep the overall cost of my WL around 250pts for a 1500pt force.

 

Another issue I have for right now, is that I only have 3 wolves that can be used as mounts. So I am looking at the best mix of models for the unit that can give the hardest punch. I don't think that WBL's can take TW's as a mount but that would be something else to consider.