Thunderwolf Upgrades or Thunderwolf Cavalry?

[Toasterfree]

You only get Rending when riding Thunderwolf Mounts for any attacks that (and I quote) do not use a special close combat weapon.

 

 

DV8

no rending with PWs and the like from TWC. you either get one or the other

[Oldenhaller]

sorry fella where does it state that for the thunderwolf cav?

 

the rule is specific to the thunderwolf mount, it'd make sense that it applied to both, however it is GW so I'm not convinced...

 

~O

[Gentlemanloser]

It would apply to the Thunderwolf Cavalry, if they had Thunderwolf Mounts as wargear.

 

But like Terminators of old, they don't.

 

And seeing as there's no minis realeased for these (yet), wouldn't they be fine represented by normal marines in PA, with the apporpriate weapon load out?

 

All RAW of course. :rolleyes:

[Wispy]

The wargear an IC can take and TWC are two very, very different things! The Thunderwolf Cavalry fast attack choice doesn't have the wargear, so they're not subject to it's rules. They're only subject to the rules listed in their profile and description.

 

I'm kind of miffed, because I like consistency and there's none of that here. it's kind of sucks, but insisting they're subject to wargear rules for wargear they don't have would open an even bigger can of worms that I don't want to think about just yet. It's easier to pretend the wargear entry isn't there and work off the profile.

 

 

Incorrect sir. IC's riding tw's are in fact real t5, not the crap bikers get. It states somewhere in there entry that they have such a bond with their wolves that they get true t5 instead of that split crap.

You're referring to Wolfkin rule that Cav members have, where it states riders and wolves are bonded on a special level? This has nothing to do with toughness, and allows the fenrisian wolves around cavalry to re-roll their morale. In any case, the rule doesn't do what you think it does, and ICs don't get it anyways because the TWM wargear entry doesn't give it to them. All it says is +1S, +1T, +1S, and rending in CC, but only if you don't have a special weapon.

[Silvtalon]

The wargear an IC can take and TWC are two very, very different things! The Thunderwolf Cavalry fast attack choice doesn't have the wargear, so they're not subject to it's rules. They're only subject to the rules listed in their profile and description.

 

I'm kind of miffed, because I like consistency and there's none of that here. it's kind of sucks, but insisting they're subject to wargear rules for wargear they don't have would open an even bigger can of worms that I don't want to think about just yet. It's easier to pretend the wargear entry isn't there and work off the profile.

 

 

Incorrect sir. IC's riding tw's are in fact real t5, not the crap bikers get. It states somewhere in there entry that they have such a bond with their wolves that they get true t5 instead of that split crap.

You're referring to Wolfkin rule that Cav members have, where it states riders and wolves are bonded on a special level? This has nothing to do with toughness, and allows the fenrisian wolves around cavalry to re-roll their morale. In any case, the rule doesn't do what you think it does, and ICs don't get it anyways because the TWM wargear entry doesn't give it to them. All it says is +1S, +1T, +1S, and rending in CC, but only if you don't have a special weapon.

 

 

ello, a little new here and I do rarely post on any form I had to put in my two cents. I been a player in WH for 10 years though.

 

Anyhow even though the Thunderwolves selection of gear is specialized. The gear and upgrades you are limited to should be looked at carefully in how they function they make a lot of sense as to why we were not given to many options that could make them way to over powered. Take a look at them in a different light. Compared to terminators, space marines, attack bikes and mostly any other types of equivalents units from other armies, the Thunderwolves do not die instantly to anything less then str 10 creatures or weapons. So how many str 10 weapons and creatures exist that can instant kill a thunderwolf cavalry model? Not very many weapons or creatures can do that. When you tool up your thunder wolves with storm shields you may loose an attack for having a close combat weapon but you do gain the ability to give them one of the best Inv saves in the game. Yes a bit point sink but your survivability goes though the roof with them when attacked with heavy weapons that punch though your standard space marine armor or melee combat against a force of power weapon wielding units like witches. In addition even with out equip'n your thunderwolves melta bombs you take a powerfist your running around with a unit that can take tanks out with a S10 fist! Which is pretty killer

 

Thunderwolves tooled up with thunder shields and a powerfist and at full strength will make a mockery out of a full geared Bloodcrusher unit. Even though the Bloodcrushers are all power weapon attacks and have good characteristics. They do not posses a 3+ inv save and a base of four attacks!?! Bloodcrushers only have a chance only IF they charge first, even though its a tough fight. Once the thunderwolves powerfist comes into effect you can pretty much kiss 1-3 bloodcrushers goodbye if they fail their inv save instantly. In all honesty it really comes down to how lucky your dice rolls are against one another. You can play math hammer all you want but someone on a lucky streak will always break the numbers.

 

As strong as the thunderwolves are by themselves they still lack the leadership to be fully effective and feared on the field of battle. The real terror comes when you add Canis Wolfborn and a Wolf Lord on a thunderwolf with warrior born saga + pets to that single squad. That squad decked out properly becomes a nasty wall of fur/fangs/wounds (24 wounds) rolling enmass towards the enemy lines. Expensive as heck to field them as all one group but highly effective. If decked out right you would get 6x S6 power attacks, 5x S10 power attacks, 7 s5 power attacks, 20s 5 (normal with rending), 16x str4 wolf attacks, all on a charge.. That is if the single unit gets into combat with out taking any causalities. That is pretty insane..

 

Anyhow A 1850 force org. That I came up with real fast..

HQ

1 Wolf Lord 270pts +pets tooled up well

1 Canis wolfborn.

 

Elite

Dread with Hvy Flame + Drop Pod

Dread with Hvy flame + Drop Pod

 

Troop

2x Fenrisian 15 wolf squads

1x Fenrisian 7 wolfs

1 Full squad of Grey hunters with 2 flamers and Drop pod

 

Fast

1 Full squad of thunderwolves +pfist +5 storm

 

Hvy

1 PredA with side las spon. Autocannon turret.

 

 

All wolves rush foward on the field..

Using drop pod assult drop two dreads in the enemy ranks to cause confusion (dreads hit the soft targets Troops to do as much damage as they can .they are expendable giving time for the TW and Fenris to make melee) Just remember to use your drop pods as Cover from heavy weapon squads when you position your Dread. I always aim for a unit as my target and let the scatter go from there even if I hit. The drop pods ability to land safely to the side of that unit makes it easier for me to flame'm ;) So no deep strike mishaps ever do happen.. Expect when I roll off the table (lol)

 

The last drop can be used for objectives or assault.

 

Pred provides annoyance.

[Haakon_Stormbrow]

hold the phone...

i just read the thunderwolf entry, it specifically states that a character with a thunderwolf follows these rules, therefor a thunderwolf calvary can have a rending thunder hammer and rending power weapon.

 

and on top of that, the other benefit of a thunderwolf mount is that you may join fenrissian wolves squads.... 18 wound canis/wolf lord for 305 points anyone??

[Silvtalon]

hold the phone...

i just read the thunderwolf entry, it specifically states that a character with a thunderwolf follows these rules, therefor a thunderwolf calvary can have a rending thunder hammer and rending power weapon.

 

and on top of that, the other benefit of a thunderwolf mount is that you may join fenrissian wolves squads.... 18 wound canis/wolf lord for 305 points anyone??

 

A character mounted on a thunderwolf May join any thunderwolf unit and or fenrisian wolf unit. Anything else is just asking for trouble. States that exactly in the thunderwolf mount entry for war gear. You are correct, although I wouldn't risk putting a good character model into a unit of very low armor save critters you run the risk of watching a leader run away in the mist of combat.

 

Although here is a good question. If a unit that doesn't have the space marines ability of "They shall no fear" Fenrisian wolves. Has a character model such as canis or your pricey wolflord on thunderwolf mount join that unit and was actually defeated and forced to run from combat. They happened to loose the disengage roll. Wouldn't you loose your character leader model with that unit since characters do not pass on abilities to the unit unless stated otherwise?

 

If that's the case loosing a 200-300point wolf Lord and 120pts of fenrisian wolves in melee would be a real slap in the face.

 

As for the rending part..

Has the rending special rule in close combat with any attack that DOES NOT use a special close combat weapon. (From the book)

 

This means powerfist, power weapons, poisoned weapons anything that has any type of special rules do not gain rending on top of what what they can normally do. Only chain-swords, basic close combat weapons or bear fists will a character mounted or thunderwolf calavery model benifit from from rending.

[Oldenhaller]

As for the rending part..

Has the rending special rule in close combat with any attack that DOES NOT use a special close combat weapon. (From the book)

 

This means powerfist, power weapons, poisoned weapons anything that has any type of special rules do not gain rending on top of what what they can normally do. Only chain-swords, basic close combat weapons or bear fists will a character mounted or thunderwolf calavery model benifit from from rending.

 

this is the part under discussion - I'm sure that may be the intention but this isn't how the rules are written...it'd be a shame really to have it that simple.

 

that and I'm impressed by space marines around on golgotha :P

 

~O

[dublindawg]

This means powerfist, power weapons, poisoned weapons anything that has any type of special rules do not gain rending on top of what what they can normally do. Only chain-swords, basic close combat weapons or bear fists will a character mounted or thunderwolf calavery model benifit from from rending.

 

Bear Fists?? Is this some new weapon that I missed in the codex?

[rodgers37]

If GW bring out Thunderwolf models, i will definatly use them, but atm, i just don't have the money/time to convert my own models.......

[Obeisance]

I'm doing Dark Wolves.

 

Space Wolves on Juggernauts.

 

Going to go with a Lord on Juggernaut, Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, Beastslayer.

 

And 2x3 Thunderwolves.

[Silvtalon]

I'm doing Dark Wolves.

 

Space Wolves on Juggernauts.

 

Going to go with a Lord on Juggernaut, Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, Beastslayer.

 

And 2x3 Thunderwolves.

 

 

There is a video in german up on youtube that coverts a armored wolf model 25mm or 28mm not sure. I can't translate it or understand it expect by visual refer. I can't seam to find that model online or a picture of it but its clearly a produced product from some company. The way they covered the thunderwolf rider ontop of that wolf model was simply killer. Just goto youtube type thunderwolf calavry and it should come up.

 

 

Sorry about the typo in the post above.....

As for the bear fists.. I ment bare fists sorry about that.

 

 

As for the rending rule as written it clearly states will not work with special close combat weapons in the space wolves book entry under thunderwolf mounts. As far as I know Codex superceeds core rules if there is some conflict unless other wise stated by FAQ on gamesworkshop website. If you read the entry in the main rule book of warhammer 40k it details and outlines said special close combat weapons. You might want to catch up on your obscure rules that most people look over. Everyone makes mistakes even I do to. =)

 

As for a gameworkshop thunderwolf model. I spoke with a few game shops in my area and they stated that their gamesworkshop rep mentioned that there is a plastic model coming out soon but didn't say when. If things go the way they normally do with games workshop in how they release things. We will see thunderwolf models and fenrisian wolf models with in the next two months during the time of model updates for the current codex that has been release. Again the information I got was second hand from game stores that directly get supplied from GW. Aleast there is something in the works but when is the real question.

[dublindawg]

I'm doing Dark Wolves.

 

Space Wolves on Juggernauts.

 

Going to go with a Lord on Juggernaut, Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, Beastslayer.

 

And 2x3 Thunderwolves.

 

 

There is a video in german up on youtube that coverts a armored wolf model 25mm or 28mm not sure. I can't translate it or understand it expect by visual refer. I can't seam to find that model online or a picture of it but its clearly a produced product from some company. The way they covered the thunderwolf rider ontop of that wolf model was simply killer. Just goto youtube type thunderwolf calavry and it should come up.

 

 

Sorry about the typo in the post above.....

As for the bear fists.. I ment bare fists sorry about that.

 

 

As for the rending rule as written it clearly states will not work with special close combat weapons in the space wolves book entry under thunderwolf mounts. As far as I know Codex superceeds core rules if there is some conflict unless other wise stated by FAQ on gamesworkshop website. If you read the entry in the main rule book of warhammer 40k it details and outlines said special close combat weapons. You might want to catch up on your obscure rules that most people look over. Everyone makes mistakes even I do to. =)

 

As for a gameworkshop thunderwolf model. I spoke with a few game shops in my area and they stated that their gamesworkshop rep mentioned that there is a plastic model coming out soon but didn't say when. If things go the way they normally do with games workshop in how they release things. We will see thunderwolf models and fenrisian wolf models with in the next two months during the time of model updates for the current codex that has been release. Again the information I got was second hand from game stores that directly get supplied from GW. Aleast there is something in the works but when is the real question.

 

In video on youtube that you reference, he is using wolves from the Circle of Orodos (sp) from the Hordes line of minatures. There was a thread last week that had links to the models on miniature market.

[Grey Mage]

I know! But I'm not sure I can make that trade off.

 

Ignoring Saga for the minute, let's look at your WL example.

 

WL, FB, SS, TW

 

Is approximately (I'm not sure of the PA costs) 190 points? Let's round up to 200, giving leway for things like a Wolf Tooth or Melta Bombs (Or Saga!). He's got;

 

5 x S6 Power Weapon attacks (At WS6). With 3 Wounds.

 

For those points, you could have 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry. They would give you;

 

16 x S5 Rending attacks (At WS4). With 8 Wounds.

 

Granted, no Invulnerable save, and assuming a SS is 30 points for TWC, yould only get two of them for your 200 points. But they'd give you;

 

8 x S5 Rending attacks (at WS4). With 4 wounds.

 

In both cases, you get more attacks, and more ablative wounds, by choosing TWC over an IC with a TW.

 

:/

Yeah, but one takes up an HQ slot and is Compulsory, the other takes up an elite slot and fights tooth and nail with my Dreadnaughts to deserve a place in my army.

 

Our HQs are a bit overcosted, thats by design- but frankly Id take the HQ on TH over the pack of them any day for the simple fact that he can assault 12" out of the squad whos been shielding him a third of the game, lock them down and get very killy indeed while my GH squad then moves up and helps him the next turn... or goes and kills something else.

 

TWC seems likely to die to quickly to me... but I say that from an Eldar point of veiw- dont expect your pack to outlast a volley of DR firepower for more than a two turns.

[Silvtalon]

Dublindawg Thank you for the heads up on those mini's I been looking for the last four days for good wolf models and you hit the nail in what I want to use. I found a local game store that carries those models to so ya were a awesome help.

 

 

Anyhow Any unit can be taken down with massive amounts of fire power and eldar can really dish out the damage that way with blade storm. Many other units or any other form or way its every models weakness. But if you got a TWC tooled with Storm shields then heavy weapon fire is much less a factor since you have a 66% ish to ignore the damage out right. If you put a commander or two in with that single squad the chances that massed fire will take them down in 1 turn or 2 is greatly deminished then again your playing wounds hammer vs math hammer against a very fast moving unit. My bet will be that they will get into combat and they will stay in combat with any type of troop choice for most of the game by playing pin ball with your lines.

 

Thats my IMO don't discount them yet.. With some Mock battles vs my tau and orc' figures using proxies.. These TWC's litterly riped both armies apart easily.. Well ghazy was a problem... due to his S10 pclaw.... An don't discount the deathrolla (laughs) I lost 2 twc's from that once in one of my mock battles.

[Gentlemanloser]

When you're used to playing with 25 point PAGK, a 50 point mini that gain S5/T5, Fleet, 12" Charge and Rending is an awesome mini. ;)

 

And cheap. ;)

[Brother Nicolas]

hold the phone...

i just read the thunderwolf entry, it specifically states that a character with a thunderwolf follows these rules, therefor a thunderwolf calvary can have a rending thunder hammer and rending power weapon.

 

and on top of that, the other benefit of a thunderwolf mount is that you may join fenrissian wolves squads.... 18 wound canis/wolf lord for 305 points anyone??

 

 

Please remember that the codex might not have clarification becuase its in the main rule book. The might not have explained full details of how the wolf works because they figure it falls under the rules for close combat weapons on page 42 of the core book.

 

"Two differenet special weapons

When it is their turn to attack, those models must choose which weapon to use the turn , but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons"

 

So a IC would chose ether the frost blad or the wolf rending attacks.

 

This would be the say with a WC with thunderhammer, ether the thunderhammer attack or the rending attack.

 

Edit: corrected spelling (I am sick)

[Gentlemanloser]

Rending isn't a weapon. It's a Special Rule.

[Silvtalon]

Rending isn't a weapon. It's a Special Rule.

 

You are correct and some what incorrect.

 

If your Wolflord or Iron Priest or any model that purchases the thunderwolf mount you only gain the rending rule if you use no special weapons. If you use a Frost blade or any other type of special weapon then you do not gain the special rule rending. Thunderwolf mounts have a limiter attached to them.

 

If you use Canis Wolfborn or thunderwolf cavalry YOU gain the special rule rending reguardless of what weapon you use. Thunderwolf riders have no limiters thus it makes Canis Wolfborn and 1 thunderwolf rider pretty strong.

 

 

See this thread please it has a detailed entry and break down.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...50#entry2139374