Rifleman Dreadnought

[Grey Mage]

200pts for 4 autocannon shots seems a bist steap. Now were talking about a Landraider more than a Dreadnaught.

[minigun762]

Is this worth it on a Venerable for vanilla Marines, or should I stick to a plasma cannon for him?

 

I personally think Venerable is overrated and I'd only really worry about it if I was already playing 3 Dreads in a list.

 

For TL'd weapons, you're already hitting 89% of the time with BS4, thats better then BS5 (83%), so the advantage of BS5 TL'd is almost overkill to be honest.

 

For Venerable, I'd have to go with the Assault Cannon or Multi-Melta, because you really want those hits to land. Plus they both work well with the DCCW and if I was going to go Venerable, I'd have to use a DCCW to take advantage of the WS5 and more durability against Power Fists.

[Gornall]

Yeah... to me the Venerable is made to carry an Assault Cannon/SB and DCCW.

[glsn]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried a Dreadnought with a TL Lascannon and a TL Autocannon. Mathhammer wise it has the number of shots to deal with transports and the power to deal with proper tanks. Thoguhts and expiriences?

[minigun762]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried a Dreadnought with a TL Lascannon and a TL Autocannon. Mathhammer wise it has the number of shots to deal with transports and the power to deal with proper tanks. Thoguhts and expiriences?

 

I'm not sure its worth it really. Its not that TL LasCannons are bad, but you're paying 20 points more for that weapon and part of the allure of the Gun Dread is its cheapness.

 

If you're looking for a good mix of AutoCannons and LasCannons, I'd look towards the Combi-Predator instead.

 

That being said, if you have 20 points to spare and nothing else to do with it, its not a bad idea at all.

[Firedrake28]

It can be totally worth it to run a twin-linked lascannon and autocannon Dreadnought. Probably a bit less effective against Rhinos, but against Chimeras, Falcons and Fire Prisms the configuration really comes into its own by giving the Dread the penetrative ability to deal with the slightly higher armor value of those vehicles.

[minigun762]

It can be totally worth it to run a twin-linked lascannon and autocannon Dreadnought. Probably a bit less effective against Rhinos, but against Chimeras, Falcons and Fire Prisms the configuration really comes into its own by giving the Dread the penetrative ability to deal with the slightly higher armor value of those vehicles.

 

If I remember right, AutoCannons and LasCannons are the same as AV12.

 

2 TL'd shots @ BS4 = 1.78 hits @ S7 vs AV12 = 0.3 glancing hits and 0.3 penetrating hits

 

1 TL'd shot @ BS4 = 0.89 hit @ S9 vs AV12 = 0.15 glancing hits and 0.3 penetrating hits

 

So the AutoCannon is actually slightly better at AV12. Now at AV13, the LasCannon really comes into its own with the ability to penetrate the armor, not just glance it anymore.

[Firedrake28]

It can be totally worth it to run a twin-linked lascannon and autocannon Dreadnought. Probably a bit less effective against Rhinos, but against Chimeras, Falcons and Fire Prisms the configuration really comes into its own by giving the Dread the penetrative ability to deal with the slightly higher armor value of those vehicles.

 

If I remember right, AutoCannons and LasCannons are the same as AV12.

 

2 TL'd shots @ BS4 = 1.78 hits @ S7 vs AV12 = 0.3 glancing hits and 0.3 penetrating hits

 

1 TL'd shot @ BS4 = 0.89 hit @ S9 vs AV12 = 0.15 glancing hits and 0.3 penetrating hits

 

So the AutoCannon is actually slightly better at AV12. Now at AV13, the LasCannon really comes into its own with the ability to penetrate the armor, not just glance it anymore.

 

Hm. I stand corrected. Thanks for the info!

[Commander Proteus]

I've actually used a dread with a T-L Autocannon before, and found it to be unworkable. S7 is a bit too middle of the road to be effective, with two shots.

 

Granted, a Mortis patern with two of them would be better, but I always found that it wasnt good enough. Too few shots to be better than an Assault Cannon, and too low an AP to be as effective as plasma or las weapons.

 

Though, as a Battletech fan myself, I like your thinking!

 

-Proteus

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Geek alert. :)

 

Probability table for TwinLinked Lascannon at BS 4 vs AV 12.

 

To hit chance: 12% Miss + 88% Hit.

 

Percentage result within hit results: 88% / 6 = 14.67%

 

NON penetration = 2 in 6. 14.67% x 2 = 29.33%

 

Glance = 1 in 6. 14.67%

 

Penetration = 3 in 6. 14.67% x 3 = 44%

 

THEREFORE: Miss of 12% + NON Penetration of 29.33% = 41.33%

Glance of 14.67%

Penetration of 44.00%

 

equal 100%.

 

 

Probability table for TwinLinked AutoCannon at BS 4 vs AV 12.

 

It is a lot of fluffing about but here are the end results:

 

NO RESULT [eg)2xmiss;miss + no pen.; no pen. + miss; 2x no pen.]: 49.4%

1 Glance: 20.72%

1 Pen: 20.72%

2 Glance: 2.15%

1 Glance + 1 Pen: 4.3%

2 Pen: 2.15%

 

equal 99.44% [sorry about rounding for 2 decimal places early]

 

 

SUMMARY: Lascannon is more likely to get a meaningful hit on AV 12; 41 v 49 per cent of an ineffective shot.

Lascannon is less likely to get a Glancing shot on AV 12; 14 v 23 (g and g + g)

Lascannon is more likely to get a Penetrating shot on AV 12; 44 v 27 (p and p+g and p+p)

 

CONCLUSION: IMO, TL Lascannon is more effective versus AV 12 than TL Autocannon. Points wise Autocannon (and could win in a bang-for-buck test) is excellent but AC will struggle to damage at higher Armour Values.

 

This is the point of my numbers. For x points more for a LC instead of an AC it would be worth dropping a marine for some reliable stopping power. An AC offers some all-round ability, it can kill men and light-armour. But Marines with bolters can already kill men but can't kill AV 11. The LCs ability to stop armour is something the Marines need and does it well. The AC pinches the Marines work (by killing men) but doesn't do a great job on armour.

 

If you've bought the right-sized spanner, don't buy an adjustable-wrench to also do up nuts and hit things, buy a dedicated hammer....

 

What do you guys think of this? :yes: :) :no:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I am interested to know the idea behind the advancing shooty Dread. Why not take a Pred with LC sponsons and AC turret (rather than TL LC, if points are a consideration).

 

Instead of walking and 2 weapons firing, why not stationary and 3 weapons firing?

 

Now I do use a melee Dread that does follow/lead my Crusaders into c+c, with the option of shooting or running. So I know why that Dread follows the men but why does the shooty Dread need to follow the men?

[minigun762]

I am interested to know the idea behind the advancing shooty Dread. Why not take a Pred with LC sponsons and AC turret (rather than TL LC, if points are a consideration).

 

Instead of walking and 2 weapons firing, why not stationary and 3 weapons firing?

 

Now I do use a melee Dread that does follow/lead my Crusaders into c+c, with the option of shooting or running. So I know why that Dread follows the men but why does the shooty Dread need to follow the men?

 

You're basically trading max firepower for some mobility and since Loyalists don't have Obliterators to do their walking/shooting, the GunDread works well.

That additional mobility means it has a better chance of getting to side/rear armor, denying cover saves or engaging the more optimal target instead of just what is available.

 

As far as why the shooty Dread is following the Marines, usually its because the Marines are screening it from assault units while the Dread provides covering fire for the squad.

[Grey Mage]

Some rather well thought out math.

*Claps*. Well done good sir.

 

I am interested to know the idea behind the advancing shooty Dread. Why not take a Pred with LC sponsons and AC turret (rather than TL LC, if points are a consideration).

 

Instead of walking and 2 weapons firing, why not stationary and 3 weapons firing?

 

Now I do use a melee Dread that does follow/lead my Crusaders into c+c, with the option of shooting or running. So I know why that Dread follows the men but why does the shooty Dread need to follow the men?

 

The main reasons for good mobile firepower are twofold: 1) You can get better angles *side armor, rear armor, etc* upfield than downfield. 2) It keeps your heavy support from being cut off, of having is LOS blocked by your own advancing troops.

 

Dreads just have the fun extra of being able to headbutt people with a face the size of a toyota.

[Commander Remiel]

The main reasons for good mobile firepower are twofold: 1) You can get better angles *side armor, rear armor, etc* upfield than downfield. 2) It keeps your heavy support from being cut off, of having is LOS blocked by your own advancing troops.

 

Dreads just have the fun extra of being able to headbutt people with a face the size of a toyota.

While their mobility and firepower are definite pluses, the head butting is the best part.

 

Now that Grey Mage mentioned it, I am willing to bet someone poses one head butting someone/thing. Any takers?

[dreadmad]

That will go on the list of cool convertions i wish i had time to do, along with the likes of a Mr.T ork :D

[Grey Mage]

That will go on the list of cool convertions i wish i had time to do, along with the likes of a Mr.T ork :D

 

My favorite conversion of all time was a little Tau Shas'o.

 

He was looking up, with his gun splayed wide and a locator in his hand.

 

On his locator was one dot, in the middle.

 

It makes more sense when you put a chaos dread in front of him ;).

[Allerka]

I always liked the one of the Crisis Suit doing a flying jump kick into the face of an Ultramarine, with the caption "Who sucks in close combat now?" B)

 

Anyway, a Dreadnought head-butting something is an interesting prospect. I have five dreads, maybe I can convert/model one to be doing that to a Carnifex or something...

[Heimdal]

The real obstacle in using them is the fact that they don't have stanard parts for them yet, unless you sink money into the expensive Forgeworld parts, or the equally expensive Planetstrike Bastion bitz.

 

You can buy the Aegis defence line. There`s a great weapon mount there that sports two twinlinked autocannons. B)

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

For 125 points i find the riflenaught one of the best anti-med infantry/transports available. Totally out-doing other codexiis high strength slingers like sentinels and war walkers. Tonight my three racked up 3 kill points each against mech guard, marines and orks. The TL'ed BS4 means four hits is almost a guarantee. Four dice rolling to pen is quite effective aginst even AV 12. It also keeps the dreads out of melta range, which is their usual killer. They are also good at taking fire off of rhinos and speeders. Best in pairs or trios I find.