White Hunter Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Okay so I'm still trying to find a good balance for a list, and came to the issue of heavy support. I know that the Space Wolves are supposed to be a mid to short range assault army, but I am wondering what would be the best type of Long Range support for me to get. I am running an almost all mech force with 2 rhino's and 2 LRR's. I am looking at adding either 1 A standard Land Raider 250 2 2x Predator with Lascannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons 260 3. 2x vindicators 230 4 Long fangs with 3x HB and 2x in a Razor back with Lascannon and plasma cannon 230 Any advice would be appreciated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Scotcho Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Longfangs in the razorback is my personal choice, but I'm ditching anti infantry for all lascannons, and letting my gh's and chars do the anti infantry thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2122756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 1 Pred with TLLC no spons < always keep it moving 6" per turn, 4+1 LF with ML in RB w/HB < you don't want your enemy shooting at it. LB 260ish Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2122771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrim Blackwolf Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I would rank them in this order, considering that you are doing a mech army and I assume that is the general theme you are going for. 1. 2 x Vindicators - they have served me well in the past as they are anti-anything and will live longer with the amount of high AV on the board. 2. Standard Raider - Two is good, three is better! and they will add some mobile AT to your force with POTMS. 3. Long Fang Pack - In my opinion, I would tailor these guys to either be anti infantry or tank depending on what you need. They are also probably more surviable than one tank, especially if they are in cover and have good fire lanes. 4. 2 x Predator - I think mixing roles with these guys is a bad idea. If you want to take them either get a dakka pred or go with triple LC's. Also, if you move at all with these guys you will only be able to fire one of the weapons. Thats my take on your options based on my experience using them and observing them in games. Have fun with whatever you chose! Cheers Thorgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2122773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 I like the idea of the vindicators, but I have a couple questions. 1. How easy are they to take out? 2. How essential is extra armor? 3. with a lack of lascannon and long range weapons +24" what is the best strategy to use? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2122940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrim Blackwolf Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Here we go: 1. One of the other members will be able to provide mathhammer for this but AV 13 on the front is pretty surviable against S8 or less and S9 weapons need a 4 to glance. If a melta gun gets into 2D6 range then the Vindicator is probably toast but so are most tanks :huh: . You have to accept that even with two Land Raiders on the board, the Vindicators will be fire magnets as opponents will probably be scared of the S10 large blast and they will focus their AT fire against the Vindicators. You will probably lose them but every shot they take is one that is not hitting a Land Raider or a Rhino, and they will get a few shots in of their own. Hopefully some of the guys will be able to give you more info on the survivabilty of Vindicators. 2. Personally, I keep them cheap as cover saves can be obtained easily on a 40k gaming board and they are fire magnets as shown above. I tend not to give them anything except in apocalypse where they get extra armour and a siege shield. 3. A Vindicator can move 6" and still fire its 24" range demolisher cannon which gives it an effective range of 30" and that is not including a 12" deployment. I use mine as the spearhead of my armoured column towards the enemy lines/objectives. Keep moving 6" and firing for as long as possible. Hope that helps! Cheers Thorgrim Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2122978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Ive been occaisionally using a LF pack, 5 strong with 2 MLs and 2 LCs. This sudden price drop of 52pts only makes them sweeter. The unit is nicely adaptable, split fire makes their volume of fire seem alot larger than it actually is. Frankly, if you ever play Planetstrike these guys are simply the most powerful defensive unit a bastion can ever hold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2122984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 OF the options you listed, I'd go with the standard Land Raider. Long Range AT is something most SWs lack and those lascannons can come in really handy. I'd hold off a bit though ... long fangs seem to be getting a much needed boost with the new codex and they could be an interesting option in a few weeks. As for the preds ... keep them specialized. I regularly run a triple lascannon predator and it rarely lets me down. Takes out tanks, HQs, termis, nobs ... all kinds of tough targets. For about the same price as your two preds, you can get one with triple lascannons and two landspeeders with bolters ... more guns and more targets to saturate your opponents firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I like Land Raiders since I like Wolf Guard Termies and there's no better way to deliver them in the Codex. Vindicators are good but risky once you get in close. Scatter is just too unreliable. I often take one but not two much anymore. Predators...still trying to figure these out. Seem overcosted for their lascannon variants. Am considering a bare-bones version as a vehicle 'full-back' - a 60-pt AV13 piece of mobile cover for Rhinos, Skyclaws, etc. Long Fangs are very cool. HB LFs are good as filler at 20 pts each and with split fire are useful when teamed with Lascannons. A basic team of 5 (2 HB, 2 LC, 1 Squad Leader) is only 135 pts. Add a Wolf Guard termie with a Cyclone launcher and you have some serious firepower for around the price of a C:SM Devastator squad but with a lot more dakka and flexibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokeiSHP Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Okay so I'm still trying to find a good balance for a list, and came to the issue of heavy support. I know that the Space Wolves are supposed to be a mid to short range assault army, but I am wondering what would be the best type of Long Range support for me to get. I am running an almost all mech force with 2 rhino's and 2 LRR's. I am looking at adding either 1 A standard Land Raider 250 I'm going to go against the grain here and say I don't like standard LR. The reason being is that especially for SW LR's should be an assault transport first and a support platform second and their shooting effectives drops considerably while driveing 12in across the table. If you want to go the LR route, slap a multi-melta onto a LRC or LRR. 2 2x Predator with Lascannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons 260 This was a standard choice for me in 4th Ed. when you could move and shoot everything in this configuration. I'm not so keen on them in 5th and with the serious drop in cost for LF's I don't think this loadout is optimal. 3. 2x vindicators 230 This is actually the option that I like best. These will cause serious threat as they move across the board. As far a survivability, AV13 makes them fairly durable, however they are going to be the focus of much incoming fire. While this can seem like a downside to taking them, it should be noted that even if they aren't shooting they are drawing fire away from other valuable units. It doesn't matter much if they dont get to shoot when you can deploy your entire assault force into enemy lines because they focused the bulk of their AT on the Vindicators instead of transports. As far as using them, just drive forward 6in every turn and pick something to be under the pie plate of death. 4 Long fangs with 3x HB and 2x in a Razor back with Lascannon and plasma cannon 230 Any advice would be appreciated. Meh, take the TLLC or AC turrets on the razorback. The LCTLPR turret is better anti-MEQ/TEQ than AV. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Hey everybody thanks for the great advice, I'm still debating between the vindicators and the Land Raider, but for now I put up a potential army list that uses a 3rd land raider. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=179428 I will get to making a similar list with vindicators in the near future. thanks again Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 i like the pred destructor with las pods avindi and a lf squad 2 ml 2 lc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 How useful would vindcators be in an assault army like mine? I feel like by the time that they have targets in range I would be into CC and they would be out of targets/in danger of hitting my own units. however taking Vindicators allows me to take fast attack as well since I don't have to the WG that are required with the Land Raider. thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 How useful would vindcators be in an assault army like mine? I feel like by the time that they have targets in range I would be into CC and they would be out of targets/in danger of hitting my own units. however taking Vindicators allows me to take fast attack as well since I don't have to the WG that are required with the Land Raider. thoughts? That's a problem I've run into myself. Vindies are too good not to take, but 2 can be a pain to coordinate with a close-and-kill army. BTW, I realized I used the words 'to', 'too' and 'two' in the previous sentence. Extra points for me! :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyInDeath Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I've played mech wolves for several years now, and my all comers list always had the following: Vindi: just the basics. I've only ever ONCE, in all those years, wished that I brought a siege shield, and that was in a game where, between myself and my opponent, about 6 tanks failed DT rolls and became mired. Barring that game, a standard loadout always served me fine, and I'll save the EA for rhinos where it coounts. Whirlwind: the utility that this provides is very nice. Pinning, anti-cover rounds, or just a nice pie plate that takes out light infantry with ease out of LOS is awesome. Plus it's dirt cheap. LRC: EA and MM options, at 275 its expensive, but there's no better way of delivering a horde of BC's and an IC to shatter my opponent's lines. The TLAC's and MM can be used very effectively to take out armor, or, combined with the hurricane bolters, great at tearing up horde armies. Vendread: TLLC/ML. with BS 5, this dude is a great tank hunter at range, and also tough as nails in case the enemy decides to come after it with anti-tank weaponry. I am actually going to take a look at the new dex this weekend and see what kind of 1750 or 1850 list I can draw up with this same core in mind for a new mech list. It should be interesting, as there will be lots of points opened up for me, as well as 1 less mandatory HQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roguemarine Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 vindicators are great for a close up fighting army, the vindies just move up behind your lines dropping shells....this also forces your opponent to decide what to shoot at, your troops that will hurt him or your armor that will hurt him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Hunter Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 The vindicator version of my List is up at the same link thanks for all the help. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=179428 I will toast you long fangs at my next victory Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeddon Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Lots of Vindicator love around here but I've never actually seen anyone use them. They really that good? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roguemarine Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 They are good because not only do they kill any type of troop, but they can actually hunt land raiders....you have to roll a really big scatter to miss the little hole on the LR since you are BS 4 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 S10, AP2 Ord Large Blast, mounted on an AV 13 BS 4 tank for 120pts... what's not to like? Personally, I find the regular LR a little schizophrenic - TLLC and Heavy Bolters do not a focused role make. Also, with a range of 36" (48" if you stick to the LC) then it's not a great assault vehicle and there is no real reason not to take a Crusader or Redeemer. Dakka Preds are now the only really worthwhile option, the Annihilator just got too expensive. 4/5 LC's in a LF Pack is a better investment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Hang on... you already have two heavy support choices and yet a couple of your choices were to add two units (preds and vindicators)? Are you looking for an expansion to your forces (for tactical flexibility), an apocalypse force or am I just missing something? But I'm a Land Raider whore (Getting my fourth on saturday!) so I'm going to say Raider! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I like the regular LR in 5th as for it's vehicle-popping goodness against the tidal wave of mech armies I usually encounter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2123941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron997 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 We have been talking extensively in the main chaos forum about the Use of the Combi-Predator (Auto cannon and Lascannon sponsors) You can get one for SW for a cool 120 points (10 cheaper than chaos you losers!) The 4 high str shots are superb for knocking out Rhinos and providing a distraction away from your advancing mech forces. Put it in cover and it is very tough as well. The big thing is the low cost. For some other choices you can get 2 of these, saving points for your more important troop slots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179388-which-tank-is-better/#findComment-2124057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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