Countering the new pups on the block

[Redbaron997]

Ok I figured this will be an important discussion for us all. Its no secret that our usual squad is:

 

10 CSM @ 245

- AC with PF

- x2 Melta

- Rhino

(Plus whatever Icon you may want to pay fore, but for our discussion we will leave em cheap)

 

The main Grey Hunter squad we will probably be facing is:

 

10 Grey Hunters @ 215

- PF

- x2 Melta

- Rhino

 

So lets do a Pro- Con list.

 

CSM Advantagous:

 

The extra PF attack

Ldr 10

(Ability for Icon although this widens the point gap even more)

 

Grey Hunters Advantagous:

 

Well the big one is a 30 point advantage they have over us.

Counter Attack

Acute Senses

ATSKNF

 

Equipment, Range Efficency (at short range bolter fights Acute Senses is only so useful), and Durabillity is the same.

 

If we assault them at equal strength, the only difference is we have one extra PF attack (and of course if they charge us thats bad as they have a clear advantage.

 

In Ldr we have a slight advantantage, as we come out on top as long as we dont break.

 

It should be noted, we may see some of these squads to:

 

9 Grey Hunters @ 243

Wolf Guard with Thunder Hammer

- Power Fist

- Melta Gun

- Rhino

 

They loose thier 2nd Special weapon and thier cost goes up almost to ours, but now have a clear CC advantage and a Leadership of 9.

 

So How do we plan to counter these. The greatest strength of the CSM army is, in my opinon, our superior troops, but now we are faced with an army that can match us and possible do it better for cheaper.

 

We have our Cult units that can best them but then the cost goes up or we take units of 8 or 7, giving them the number advantage.

 

What we do have in our favor is that SWs have alot of shiny gubbins and the ability to get 4 HQs, which means they will probably invest more points in silly extras instead of thier superb troops.

 

Your Thoughts?

[Night Lord Dred]

Honestly, I have no idea what Chaos is going to do. Specifically the Chaos Space Marines. Plagues and Zerkers still have an advantage, though not as much right now.

 

I havnt seen the rest of the SW codex, so maybe they have a weakness in something like Heavy Support. However, these marines are severely undercosted and far better than our own. Im pretty sure these SW marines take the cake for the most versatile and point efficient troop unit in the game now.

[DuskRaider]

Well, it will definitely be difficult for us, as you've pointed out their basic troops meet and exceed ours for a cheaper price, but truthfully we should be used to being outnumbered. Just because Space Wolves have cheaper (and arguably better) basic troops doesn't make them better all around. I'm sure we'll struggle at first, but truthfully, how many people take basic Chaos Space Marines opposed to Cult Troops? And for that matter, anything they can do, our Cult Troops can do better.

[minigun762]

but truthfully, how many people take basic Chaos Space Marines opposed to Cult Troops? And for that matter, anything they can do, our Cult Troops can do better.

 

I did as well as many others around here (Chillin, Redbaron, Prot).

Basic CSMs were awesome because they were cheap multi-functional units that (when properly equipped) could deal with anything.

Compared to Cult options, they were always atleast competitive because of their cheapish price tag and flexibility.

 

However now we're faced with a unit that has the same role but a clear cut point advantage over us. For the most part, everything else is a wash (ATSKNF vs LD10 for example) but the equivalent squad at 88% the price is hard to swallow.

Assuming they get the same price on their armor as Codex Marines (85 point Dakka Predator vs 100 for us), those little savings will add up to 1-2 extra squads in a 2k game.

 

Imagine what you could do if you could suddenly afford an extra Termicide squad or 2 more Oblits in your current list. :D

[incinerator950]

but truthfully, how many people take basic Chaos Space Marines opposed to Cult Troops? And for that matter, anything they can do, our Cult Troops can do better.

 

I did as well as many others around here (Chillin, Redbaron, Prot).

Basic CSMs were awesome because they were cheap multi-functional units that (when properly equipped) could deal with anything.

Compared to Cult options, they were always atleast competitive because of their cheapish price tag and flexibility.

 

However now we're faced with a unit that has the same role but a clear cut point advantage over us. For the most part, everything else is a wash (ATSKNF vs LD10 for example) but the equivalent squad at 88% the price is hard to swallow.

Assuming they get the same price on their armor as Codex Marines (85 point Dakka Predator vs 100 for us), those little savings will add up to 1-2 extra squads in a 2k game.

 

Imagine what you could do if you could suddenly afford an extra Termicide squad or 2 more Oblits in your current list. :D

 

punch the idiot who just made a 2nd Ork or IG codex :P

[the jeske]

I think we are going to see MotW in every GH squad that can take it. the way to deal with them is the same we always do . pop transports with termicid and oblits , try to stal with DPs and then hit them with plasma canons , the same thing we always do and always will considering we have not more then one option per one slot . Also remember that if a unit has 3-4 non generic choices the chance of one of them dieing before it gets used goes up [win for my water warrior NM] . But thats just unit on unit , the real problem are builds. 4 rune priest with jaws hurt PM/cult based armies like hell [:D isnt it wonderful how NM dont roll on I5 ?] . they are their versions of oblits [i mean the roll they fit in not the slot they take up or arment] vs meq. the cavalery is also awesome . tons of attacks , fast , cheap [considering FnP and 2 W eternal warrior] . its as if we suddenlly got to use blood crushers in our lists. the LR rush build with canis and a unit of those guys , will surelly see a lot of play [for me they are something between nob bikers and blood crushers ] .

 

 

 

on tier 2 list a list with lots of defilers[as in 3 defilers] ,2 DP[of course they would be gimped here becaues of the staffs SW have] could actually do ok against SW.

[Brother Nihm]

Rubrics (rising sun style with Rhino blocking), plasma, Oblits and pie plates are decent bets imho.

 

But yeah, blatant codex creep. :D

[minigun762]

But yeah, blatant codex creep. :D

 

Codex creep is one thing but I'm most annoyed that the niche role of the CSM has pretty much been replaced now.

 

The only options we have left it seems are either Icons, which have their own drawbacks or Cult troops.

[minigun762]

[-_- isnt it wonderful how NM dont roll on I5 ?] . they are their versions of oblits [i mean the roll they fit in not the slot they take up or arment] vs meq.

 

Why wouldn't they use I5? I thought it was just an Initiative roll.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

On the plus side, wolves do have drawbacks. I made a thread in their forum asking about this issue awhile back.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=178756

 

To quote grey mage from that thread:

 

1) Compared to Chaos our HQs are about twice the price.

2) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalist we have a lower leadership unless we pay for seargents out of our limited Elites selection.

3) Compared to Loyalists our transports carry less.

4) Compared to Loyalists we lack MM attack bike squads, wich for many are now a staple.

5) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists our primary assault troops have a lower WS, BS and LD.

6) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists we lack heavy weapon support. No squad weapons, no obliterators, etc.

7) Compared to Chaos AND Loyalists we lack an "Ubershoot" unit- ala sterngaurd or Tzeentch Marines.

8) Our Psychic Hoods work different.

9) Compared to Loyalists our HQs are less survivable but killier.

10) Compared to Chaos our HQs can be more survivable but not nessecarily as Killy.

11) Chaos gets Demons, we get Wolves- not as survivable, but faster and on the board turn 1. Its a tradeoff.

[incinerator950]

They're faster and more killy, no one outside of real friendly/starting armies uses casual gaming lists, most people go for the things that work the best and ignore the fluff/ignore the crummy choices.

[Leethal]

Just kill them first, deny the charge, and shoot the crap out of them.

 

Problem solved.

 

If that fails, Krazy Khorne Lord, Red Tide, Point and Go.

[incinerator950]

Just kill them first, deny the charge, and shoot the crap out of them.

 

Problem solved.

 

If that fails, Krazy Khorne Lord, Red Tide, Point and Go.

 

And as the Khorne Lord advances, I scream RED FACTION throughout the area.

 

Hopefully someone will get it

[Redbaron997]

but truthfully, how many people take basic Chaos Space Marines opposed to Cult Troops? And for that matter, anything they can do, our Cult Troops can do better.

However now we're faced with a unit that has the same role but a clear cut point advantage over us. For the most part, everything else is a wash (ATSKNF vs LD10 for example) but the equivalent squad at 88% the price is hard to swallow.

Assuming they get the same price on their armor as Codex Marines (85 point Dakka Predator vs 100 for us), those little savings will add up to 1-2 extra squads in a 2k game.

 

Imagine what you could do if you could suddenly afford an extra Termicide squad or 2 more Oblits in your current list. :o

 

Yea they get a Combi-Pred for 10 points cheaper to :/

 

You have seen my new list up with 6 CSM units and 3 Combi-Preds and a DP right?

 

They can ake virtually the Exact same list much cheaper.

 

245x6

vs

215x6

 

130x3

vs

120x3

 

Without the DP they compare to:

 

1860 (Chaos)

Vs

1650 (SW)

 

For pretty much the exact same army! :o

 

For the points left over they can get a full unit of Wolves, with a Thunderwolf riding Wolf Lord ( TH and SS) to go up the flank.

 

Which is obviously far superior in both survivabilty (4 T5 3+,5++ wounds vs 15 t4 6+ wounds AND 3 T5 3++ wounds)

 

And has superior killing power (6 DP attakcs VS 45 I5 str 4 attacks and 5 Str 10 TH attacks)

 

And they are roughly as fast (Flying vs Calvary)

 

Im not one to whine often, but thats just not cool that partically the same army taken by two different lists is far seperior in one than the other. (And I was really digging my new IW list ive been bouncing around)

[minigun762]

Yea they get a Combi-Pred for 10 points cheaper to :/

 

You have seen my new list up with 6 CSM units and 3 Combi-Preds and a DP right?

 

They can ake virtually the Exact same list much cheaper.

 

Without the DP they compare to:

 

1860 (Chaos)

Vs

1650 (SW)

 

For pretty much the exact same army! :o

 

Thats a big difference for equivalent armies. Thats almost enough for a Land Raider or a trio of Oblits.

 

We can drop the Predators for Oblits, but then we're just furthering that point gap.

CSMs can be replaced with Plague Marines and Beserkers but our body count goes down to about 75% of what it was.

[Corpse.]

Space Wolves can have that wulfen with 1+D6(and any bonuses like 2ccw+charging) rending attacks, that does not stack with power weapon/fist. So the unit you refer to is 230 points.

 

 

 

 

One thing you guys have to notice here. The space wolves great companies broke off into chapters, that still hold the same colors and iconography. They are still in fact a LEGION! So they will have lots of similarities to chaos space marines.

 

We get 5 Icon choices, the 2 special weapons, up to 20 in a unit to abuse the icons group effectiveness (if you want a 'slogger unit to tie down a objective near your side of the table, abuse killpoints or have a large unit where half is behind cover and granting everything 4+ cover saves). Add in the tactical factor of our berzerkers still outperforming them, hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's at I5 or at the very least hitting on 3's with another additional powerfist attack. Put in the idea our "sternguard with inv saves" are also troop choices, and more often then not they come to us as much as we go after them. There is no true abuse of ATSKNF trying to run then shoot us again. In addition they do not have combat squads for it.

 

They do get drop pods for their two special weapons and counter charge for the possible return attacks acting as charging however. That is one great bonus we do not get. Our plague marines are a bit busted, they rely on land raiders to tie them up in melee for the charge out of the vehicle for minimal exposure.

 

 

Their many HQ's are either spendy to keep mobile and hidden behind their vehicles, or they must sacrifice a spot in one of two units on average for the transport space and either removing a special weapon from hunters or have unreliable meltaguns that cannot fire at 6" in blood claws. If they use their termies, its give and take. Good as ours, better in some spots, but they cannot termicide without a drop pod. (Both good and bad, bad in terms of points cost but good in the guidance system)

 

 

All in all, the codex is nasty. My daemons already feeling it. My nurgle has yet to lose more then a few models to those pesky wolfworldjaws. (yes thats a nickname for it)

 

 

However. They do not get princes. They do not get defilers. Their many HQ's either must take a +35 pt upgrade to be immune to instant death, and be expensive as hell if he takes advantage of it or its a psyker with 2 wounds and BS4. Special characters are mostly points sinks for them, unless they stick in a big ball together to abuse it.

 

 

Facing them almost a dozen times so far, I have to say I dislike facing the big fat rending wolves. I dislike the psykers, and I dislike the super combos with grey knights.

[Redbaron997]

Space Wolves can have that wulfen with 1+D6(and any bonuses like 2ccw+charging) rending attacks, that does not stack with power weapon/fist. So the unit you refer to is 230 points.

 

I wasnt including that, as it was not an easy comparison.

 

Anyways Lets try to turn this around now, I know I have been a bit guilty of whinning in this thread, but there is nothing we can do about what is or isnt in thier codex. Lets just concentrate on how best to fight it and be proud of who we are.

 

Remember we fight the Long War, against the traitor emperor and his lap dogs. Noone said it was gonna be easy, but we fight to right the wrongs of the past and free humanity from the corpse god.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The wolves can field a really nasty infantry based force. Luckily for us we are good at killing infantry. Lash, oblits, doom sirens, zerkers, and defilers will all stomp all over those wolf squads still. If you run a list that is closer to codex lists, then its going to hurt more. We just need to take more advantage of the units we have that are unique to chaos.

[Chimerical]

Obviously the 10 Grey Hunter : 10 CSM comparison goes in the Wolves' favour. However, if you're talking about this from a purely competitive point of view, I think the comparison is not completely valid. The Grey Hunter loadout looks to be the most points-efficient choice for them - I expect to see plenty of the 2x2xMelta and maybe a 2xFlamer unit as as the core of their army, and it's a great core.

 

If we are willing to get over our hangovers from the last codex and play free-for-all black legion style, then I think we can make more efficient core compositions than the comparable 10 CSMs with two specials.

 

We can min-max plague marines to tank hunt, and have a secondary role of locking up nasty units in combat. Berzerkers getting the charge will still beat most anything, and they work well in tandem with plague marines. Then we have Thousand Sons available if you want to build a specifically anti-MEQ army.

 

In other FOC-slots we still have our Obliterators and, again, if you want to go specifically anti-MEQ, autocannon havocs to deal with the even higher number of rhinos I expect to see around with this dex.

 

HQs we have Daemon Princes and Lash Sorcerers, which will remain the envy of every other army.

 

In short, the same stuff that we've been seeing in every tweaked CSM tournament army is still going to be really, really effective. I'm not advocating you take it, but it's a bit off-mark to fret about another army's most competitive choices by comparing them to those of ours which are not our most competitive. In a friendly environment, SW players will probably not spam 6 Grey Hunter units just like I'd not expect to see the 2Lash-9Oblits CSM build in friendlies. In no-holds-barred competitive environments, then I'd expect to see them both come out, and, frankly, I still think 2Lash-9Oblits-Plaguies/Zerkers will have the edge.

[the jeske]

I still think 2Lash-9Oblits-Plaguies/Zerkers will have the edge.

lash buillds dont work so well when SW have stuffs that cancle our powers on a roll of +4[orm+3 if they take njal].

Also isnt it great how with each dex , your forced to go more and more BL , because there is no way a lets say AL would win anything right now.

 

 

Why wouldn't they use I5? I thought it was just an Initiative roll.

because Jaws uses unmodified I and our own decks says that MoS is included in to the profile [so its 4+1] . sucks hard.

[Chimerical]

The hood is marginally better than the regular loyalist hood. And it's still 24" range, right? For it's price and given a 50% chance to work, Lash is still a bargain power.

 

Alpha Legion being screwed is old news. This is codex: Black Legion. You can use the best of all the options if you want or you can self-impose a theme, restrict what you can take, and therefore decrease your army's level of power from a list perspective. Lame choice, I know, but lets not derail this into another one of those threads.

[Prot]

but truthfully, how many people take basic Chaos Space Marines opposed to Cult Troops? And for that matter, anything they can do, our Cult Troops can do better.

 

I did as well as many others around here (Chillin, Redbaron, Prot).

Basic CSMs were awesome because they were cheap multi-functional units that (when properly equipped) could deal with anything.

Compared to Cult options, they were always atleast competitive because of their cheapish price tag and flexibility.

 

Imagine what you could do if you could suddenly afford an extra Termicide squad or 2 more Oblits in your current list. ;)

 

Yea, it's truly a really annoying habit GW have lately of just crushing similar concepts that exist in the game with a lack of imagination, or concern for people that don't want to change codexes every 3 months. For instance Orks out horde Nids, Wolves out punch Chaos, heck... that new Wolve Psyker is like a human Eldrad! That's just not right.

 

 

Rubrics (rising sun style with Rhino blocking), plasma, Oblits and pie plates are decent bets imho.

 

But yeah, blatant codex creep.

 

Codex creep? I don't know if that's a sufficient description for it. I can't wait to see what the new Blood Angels look like! <_<

 

The chaos codex has really bad ideas in it, that just don't convey, I won't go into material we've covered a thousand times here on the BnC, but I clearly remember when codex creep started in 3rd edition and everyone realized GW had to pull the plug and start over because it was getting insane. I'm thinking Orks, to IG, to Space Wolves, and really it's a 3 horse race right now.

 

Believe it or not I'm fine with this part of it... it's business right? But it is the way they bash previous codexes into obsolescence is what bothers me.

[chillin]

The hood is marginally better than the regular loyalist hood. And it's still 24" range, right? For it's price and given a 50% chance to work, Lash is still a bargain power.

 

Lash will be pretty much useless against a SW army, b/c it will be a 50% chance to work, and being used against, what should be, an all mech army. Not that I'm sad about that, I hate lash.

But yeah, I think most SW's armies we will see are going to be, LR's, rino's, dreads, & preds. That's what I would do anyway.

Yeah, the lash will still work on the kids (I assume), that take the SW's riding giant wolves :P , but other then that those lash DP are usually going to be looking at a wall of steal (and I'll be cheering for the SW's)

[Chimerical]

Again, the trend to mechanisation isn't new. And you can say the same thing for almost every psychic power. But I don't see it as being so fatal as you imply - yeah, they're in transports to start, but at some point in the game they're gonna come out. And Lash becomes dangerous at that point.

 

You don't need to use Lash every turn to have made it 'points-effective'. One use has the potential to let you wipe out a whole squad with templates or remove a squad from an objective.

 

I'm not ready to lump these Wolves in with Orks and IG (and Chaos) just yet.

[David the Despoiler]

They have the same problem Chaos Warriors do in Fantasy. Their HQ choices are very powerful, but rarely immune to instead death. And very expensive, might I add. In taking them, you limit the amount of troops you have.