Countering the new pups on the block

[Prot]

Any army geared for CC in 5th isn't going to be walking there.... Rhino's are better again. All I can think of is you'd want to crack a rhino open, then get a DP to lash the squad somewhere to your advantage. Further, or closer....

 

I used to think Lash was cheezy. I admit I only tried 'dual' lash once. I used it against an Ork player and I realized.... the Ork has a 'one turn lash' for their entire army called Whaaagh..... I don't know, but in my game I felt like my Lashes were a weak version of a 'reverse Whaagh'.

 

I think considering point differences, and the strength and powers of SW's, you pretty much have to pull out all the stops as Chaos. To hold back is to just die watching the game. I should add that I'm just speculating.

 

I should have prefaced this by saying I haven't played against the Wolves yet, but I'm sure I will. So far I guess we're all just speculating I suppose.

[minigun762]

I know that this is causing me to revisit my lists and in many cases replace the basic CSM with Cult Troops or load up more on Termicide squads.

 

Hell I might even add in a 2nd Daemon Prince to my army now, which is saying alot for me.

[Corpse.]

I have had use for my large nurgle raptor unit. Some reason the pups cant take 20 raptors in a charge even with a successful counter attack bonus. Including their unmodified initiative for wolf jaws.

 

For some reason that unit proves itself to me again. The wide line of marines charging multiple tanks and chucking 19 krak grenades and a powerfist at the tanks. Then afterwards the durability makes up for any charge, and often gets cover saves as a result of the conglomeration of models and being a large unit half hidden easily behind rubble/enemy units.

[Chimerical]

Their HQ choices are very powerful, but rarely immune to instead death.

 

Slightly tangential-topic rant coming on...

 

Actually they probably have greater access to instant-death immunity than any army outside of Nids and Daemons. They've got a saga for it! And even those bloody lone wolves get it too! What nonsense is that! GWs just gone, 'Hey, the downside to taking all these single-man Marbo kamikaze style units is that, gee, they probably only get one-hit and then they get wasted. Hey, here's a great idea, let's give them FNP, Eternal Warrior, and not give up a KP for when they inevitably die! How fun will that be?' <_<

 

Eternal Warrior is turning into the latest 'Fearless'. Oh yeah, those Lone Wolves get that one too. Of course.

 

Yet they won't have to worry about their own instant death dealing moves, cause their moves don't cause 'instant death', they just cause the victim to be 'removed from play'. Really, Phil? You know, GW, this thing you have going with all these special-rules and counter-special-rule-special-rules isn't going to go away when you hand it all out like candy.

[Night Lord Dred]

The question is, do we outgun them?

 

Ive only seen bits and pieces from their book, but if Chaos can outgun them, then I think it will be alright to use CSM. Im thinking hold back, let them and their psychic powers come to you while blowing them to smitherines, and use an overwhelming number of rhinos and CSM to spread out and hit the strong/weak sides accordingly.

 

I know our jump troops are better than theirs as well, but im not sure of point costs. But Raptors ensuring a charge will guarantee us a win if the SWs squad is already weakened.

 

I cant really go into more strategies because I havnt seen it (people were hogging it there earlier today when I went), but maybe some thinking outside the box will help us out.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Their HQ choices are very powerful, but rarely immune to instead death.

 

Slightly tangential-topic rant coming on...

 

Actually they probably have greater access to instant-death immunity than any army outside of Nids and Daemons. They've got a saga for it! And even those bloody lone wolves get it too! What nonsense is that! GWs just gone, 'Hey, the downside to taking all these single-man Marbo kamikaze style units is that, gee, they probably only get one-hit and then they get wasted. Hey, here's a great idea, let's give them FNP, Eternal Warrior, and not give up a KP for when they inevitably die! How fun will that be?' :lol:

 

Eternal Warrior is turning into the latest 'Fearless'. Oh yeah, those Lone Wolves get that one too. Of course.

 

Yet they won't have to worry about their own instant death dealing moves, cause their moves don't cause 'instant death', they just cause the victim to be 'removed from play'. Really, Phil? You know, GW, this thing you have going with all these special-rules and counter-special-rule-special-rules isn't going to go away when you hand it all out like candy.

 

 

Yeah, this is a sore spot for me as well. CSM rely on the daemon prince's ability to not be instant deathed.

[David the Despoiler]

But aren't Sagas unique to one character in the army? Or is that just one particular wargear combination? In which case I will be extremely upset.

[minigun762]

Well the issue with Eternal Warrior is it puts even more emphasis on high S multi shot weapons.

You really want to stack wounds on squads, force those saves over and over.

 

Its this reason that I still feel that Plasma guns are competitive. Against T6 units or less, they're equivalent to Meltaguns for infantry killing but twice the shots. S8 is nice for insta-killing, but twice the shots can be more beneficial in alot of situations.

 

I feel that the Defiler might start being more common in some builds. Mobile pie plates with counter-assault abilities seems useful.

[Redbaron997]

Its this reason that I still feel that Plasma guns are competitive. Against T6 units or less, they're equivalent to Meltaguns for infantry killing but twice the shots. S8 is nice for insta-killing, but twice the shots can be more beneficial in alot of situations.

 

I would agree with you, except for the fact that they cost more and might kill one of your own guys, Nah I just dont see plasma guns in any of my lists in the future, meltas are just cheaper, safer, and better and most situations.

[incinerator950]

Plague marines love plasma

[minigun762]

Its this reason that I still feel that Plasma guns are competitive. Against T6 units or less, they're equivalent to Meltaguns for infantry killing but twice the shots. S8 is nice for insta-killing, but twice the shots can be more beneficial in alot of situations.

 

I would agree with you, except for the fact that they cost more and might kill one of your own guys, Nah I just dont see plasma guns in any of my lists in the future, meltas are just cheaper, safer, and better and most situations.

 

The killing yourself thing is really not much of a threat.

With 1 shot you have a 5.5% chance to die and with a double tap its 11% (I think). Thats pretty damn good odds really considering the firepower you can put out.

The advantage of the Plasmagun is that you have twice the range and twice the shots as the Meltagun, that means that you're probably going to get 3x the shots out (1 at 24" and 2 within 12" compared to 1 Melta at 12").

 

I find a dual Plasmagun squad works well with dual Meltagun/Power Fist.

The Plasma squad rapid fires into a target, thinning it down and the Melta/Fist squad charge in and mop up the rest.

[Redbaron997]

the Meltagun, that means that you're probably going to get 3x the shots out (1 at 24" and 2 within 12" compared to 1 Melta at 12").

 

I find a dual Plasmagun squad works well with dual Meltagun/Power Fist.

The Plasma squad rapid fires into a target, thinning it down and the Melta/Fist squad charge in and mop up the rest.

 

I would agree with that, but im not that lucky usually haha

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I used to use plasma plague marines. 5 games in a row on the first shot one would overheat and die (failed save and FNP). My plasma vanilla marines never have trouble though.

[the jeske]

With 1 shot you have a 5.5% chance to die and with a double tap its 11% (I think). Thats pretty damn good odds really considering the firepower you can put out.

this is true , but if your going for a plasma build . its not going to be one shot . its going to be 8/12 shots per turn [considering now combi weapons take for asp champions, otherwise its more].

[Prot]

Re-reading the Wolves rules, and considering the last 3-4 codexes to come out since 5th ed make me realize. With every release we are just going to be more, and more screwed until we get a redux.

 

I hate to say it; but I suggest we're about 4 months away from being 'Codex effectiveness rating: Necrons'. lol

[minigun762]

With 1 shot you have a 5.5% chance to die and with a double tap its 11% (I think). Thats pretty damn good odds really considering the firepower you can put out.

this is true , but if your going for a plasma build . its not going to be one shot . its going to be 8/12 shots per turn [considering now combi weapons take for asp champions, otherwise its more].

 

I wasn't thinking so much of a Plasma build army, but maybe a few Plasma build unit.

If you're rapid firing the Plasmagun and your Champion's got a Combi-Plasma as well, there is a semi-decent chance you'll lose a body, but you have to take in consideration how many units you've hopefully killed with all that Plasma dakka.

 

I think Plasma is more useful for codex Marines because they can pair it with the group's Heavy Weapon for sit and shoot fun, but I wouldn't overlook it for Chaos either.

 

Besides in my experience, Plasma squads can get away without having a Power Fist Champion. Not saying its not helpful, but if you need to trim 40 points for something else, you can safely drop the Power Fist and run the squad alongside a Melta/Flamer unit that has one.

[chillin]

10 man csm squad w 2 plaz, 16 bolter and 4 plaz shots, 180 pts., pretty good IMO.

191 pts for 7 PM w/ 2 plaz, they are harder to kill of course and are fearless, but 3 fewer guys, so 6 fewer bolter shots and 6 fewer hth attacks, also I have found their int.3 annoying when fighting int.4 opponents, so I'm kind of up in the air about which squad is better.

But I always have 1 plaz squad in my army, sometimes 2, and they usually pull their weight or more, in one way or another.

[minigun762]

10 man csm squad w 2 plaz, 16 bolter and 4 plaz shots, 180 pts., pretty good IMO.

191 pts for 7 PM w/ 2 plaz, they are harder to kill of course and are fearless, but 3 fewer guys, so 6 fewer bolter shots and 6 fewer hth attacks, also I have found their int.3 annoying when fighting int.4 opponents, so I'm kind of up in the air about which squad is better.

But I always have 1 plaz squad in my army, sometimes 2, and they usually pull their weight or more, in one way or another.

 

I would always put Icon of Chaos Glory into the first squad since they're only LD9.

 

But then the squads are 190 vs 191 so totally equivalent to me. One is more killy and the other is more durable.

[Night Lord Dred]

Both need rhinos.

[incinerator950]

Re-reading the Wolves rules, and considering the last 3-4 codexes to come out since 5th ed make me realize. With every release we are just going to be more, and more screwed until we get a redux.

 

I hate to say it; but I suggest we're about 4 months away from being 'Codex effectiveness rating: Necrons'. lol

 

You're implying Necrons suck right now, they don't.

[chillin]

I would always put Icon of Chaos Glory into the first squad since they're only LD9.

But then the squads are 190 vs 191 so totally equivalent to me. One is more killy and the other is more durable.

 

I have given the IoCG in the past. but I started noticing that they didn't have to make a whole out of Ld. test. My opponents were often more concerned with other threats (oblits and my advancing rinos at range, my melta/flamer, PF squads and chaos lord up close).

I have been experimenting with giving them a naked asp champ. For 5 pts more then the IoCG they get a Ld. 10 (not quite as good as Ld.9 with a reroll, I know) and +1 attack. Sometimmes I think it's worth it, other times I think not. I'm kinda leaning towards not. I think this squad is kinda like the dakka pred, it's effective for its cost. You start adding too many pts to it and you start getting up near the range that for X more pts, you can get something that is probably better.

[chillin]

You're implying Necrons suck right now, they don't.

 

I've never failed to phase out a necron army. I don't know if that means they "suck" but they definately have a chink in their armor.

Necrons are tricky, the things that make them necrons make them so different from any other army, and have such different rules that the game designers run a fine line between making them too powerful and almost impossible to kill (and make them stay dead) and making them have an autolose built in like they do now. I think just giving them all fnp instead of WBB, and dropping the phase out rule might work out better all around (or maybe an army of all fnp would be too powreful ??). Like I say, I think necrons are going to be tricky and require alot of playtesting to get right (Let's just hope they but the time and playtesting and revision into them to get them right).

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Re-reading the Wolves rules, and considering the last 3-4 codexes to come out since 5th ed make me realize. With every release we are just going to be more, and more screwed until we get a redux.

 

I hate to say it; but I suggest we're about 4 months away from being 'Codex effectiveness rating: Necrons'. lol

 

You're implying Necrons suck right now, they don't.

 

The general consensus is that necrons suck.

[minigun762]

You're implying Necrons suck right now, they don't.

 

I've never failed to phase out a necron army. I don't know if that means they "suck" but they definately have a chink in their armor.

Necrons are tricky, the things that make them necrons make them so different from any other army, and have such different rules that the game designers run a fine line between making them too powerful and almost impossible to kill (and make them stay dead) and making them have an autolose built in like they do now. I think just giving them all fnp instead of WBB, and dropping the phase out rule might work out better all around (or maybe an army of all fnp would be too powreful ??). Like I say, I think necrons are going to be tricky and require alot of playtesting to get right (Let's just hope they but the time and playtesting and revision into them to get them right).

 

I think Chillin hit the nail on the head.

Like Daemons, Necron play so differently that its almost a case of "autowin or autolose".

If you try to take out their Monoliths and don't knock out their Destroyers, you're going to get burned down fairly fast.

However if you go straight for Phase Out, its fairly difficult for them to pull out that win.

[the jeske]

You're implying Necrons suck right now, they don't.

I dont know tha army with auto lose build in to the dex . I dont think its possible to suck more.

 

they have 1 build for 1k[or rather had considering 1k is not played] , one for 1500 and one for 1750 and 1850. and all those builds are based around "and I put more destroyers in to my list" , more boring then even chaos , because we at least can use a bit different unit .