The Melta Myth

[Drudge Dreadnought]

In other words Giga, meltas are good for you because the rest of your army is close ranged anyhow. That makes perfect sense, but it doesn't change the OPs point as many armies are not designed to be so close range.

[Giga]

In other words Giga, meltas are good for you because the rest of your army is close ranged anyhow. That makes perfect sense, but it doesn't change the OPs point as many armies are not designed to be so close range.

And what vanilla armies ARE designed to be long range? Give me some truly competitive lists.

 

If you look at the vanilla codex, you'll see that 99% of its units and weapons are made for the medium to short range. Vanilla marines lack a real ability to effectively destroy an opponent at extreme ranges (ie. to actually slaughter an opponent's infantry).

 

An example of an effective long-range unit, with a real ability to dish out damage to both vehicles and infantry, would be the standard leman russ. Or a defiler. Or a prism. Or the various artillery bateries. Vanilla Marines don't have anything of this sort.

 

On the other hand, all the really murderous anti-infantry choices in the vanilla codex (sternguard, assault terminators, mm/hf speeders, bikers, command squads, independent characters, LR redeemer, etc.) are designed for close combat or the rapid fire range. This is why vulkan lists are so good; because flamers & meltas in general go a long way towards complementing most other units in the vanilla dex.

[0ldsk00l]

Thunderfire cannons make a pasty mess of most infantry from long range.

[Giga]

Thunderfire cannons make a pasty mess of most infantry from long range.

They're also a heavy support choice that specializes in anti-infantry (each anti-infantry HS choice you take greatly limits the amount of long-range anti-tank (missile launchers, lascannons) in your army), and a very fragile one at that.

 

It's a great unit, don't take me wrong, but it's still not something you can rely on as your main anti-infantry. I think thunderfire cannons are better suited for in-yo-face lists.

[Gornall]

It's a great unit, don't take me wrong, but it's still not something you can rely on as your main anti-infantry. I think thunderfire cannons are better suited for in-yo-face lists.

 

Except my Techmarine takes this opportunity to pay back all the Brothers who made fun of him back at the Monastary.... :P

[Frater Marcus Scipio]

While for the most part I do agree with Giga on the premium of melta and the short/mid-range design of Space Marines, I think the OP has a point on the need for a small supply of ranged anti-transport/MC fire. I use the autocannons on my preds, a single LS typhoon, and my objective sitting squad with ML for this purpose.

 

Otherwise I share Giga's prediliction for MM/HF LSs or MM attack bikes. Both of these vehicles have an effective 36" range and the extra point of strength along with the +1 from AP 1 means I have a superior chance to kill trasnsports with them. I do however, prefer to use them on heavier armor while my typhoon and preds spot the transports. If you are also rolling up your rhinos you have a next turn 24" MM strike range.

 

I think Lascannons are the least useful of the AT weapons and I groan inwardly when I see lists sprting multiples of them. Outside of instakilling Tau battlesuits (and I think MLs do this just as well are cheaper and can drop templates later) they are really not worth the points vs everything else in your armory.

[Fetterkey]

Thunderfire cannons make a pasty mess of most infantry from long range.

They're also a heavy support choice that specializes in anti-infantry (each anti-infantry HS choice you take greatly limits the amount of long-range anti-tank (missile launchers, lascannons) in your army), and a very fragile one at that.

 

It's a great unit, don't take me wrong, but it's still not something you can rely on as your main anti-infantry. I think thunderfire cannons are better suited for in-yo-face lists.

 

I find Heavy Support slots to be poor sources of anti-tank firepower. Your mileage may vary.

[Frater Marcus Scipio]

Thunderfire cannons make a pasty mess of most infantry from long range.

They're also a heavy support choice that specializes in anti-infantry (each anti-infantry HS choice you take greatly limits the amount of long-range anti-tank (missile launchers, lascannons) in your army), and a very fragile one at that.

 

It's a great unit, don't take me wrong, but it's still not something you can rely on as your main anti-infantry. I think thunderfire cannons are better suited for in-yo-face lists.

 

I find Heavy Support slots to be poor sources of anti-tank firepower. Your mileage may vary.

 

Very true... for my $0.02 HS has the cheapest anti-infantry killer in out codex, the humble pred destructor. Outside of that I might splurge on a LRC (also primarily anti-infantry).

[thade]

I really enjoy my devestator squad; it's lascannon-tastic, and keeps much of the center of the table clear of transports (one way or the other).

[HERO]

I really enjoy my devestator squad; it's lascannon-tastic, and keeps much of the center of the table clear of transports (one way or the other).

 

How many Lascannons and how many in the squad?

[chapter master 454]

Thunderfire cannons make a pasty mess of most infantry from long range.

They're also a heavy support choice that specializes in anti-infantry (each anti-infantry HS choice you take greatly limits the amount of long-range anti-tank (missile launchers, lascannons) in your army), and a very fragile one at that.

 

It's a great unit, don't take me wrong, but it's still not something you can rely on as your main anti-infantry. I think thunderfire cannons are better suited for in-yo-face lists.

 

I find Heavy Support slots to be poor sources of anti-tank firepower. Your mileage may vary.

 

Really? well my TFC has yet to be a 'poor choice' and it also is invaluable to me because it is a good tank kneecapper. Eldar getting you down, get first turn and subterranian their tanks and viola they now take dangerous terrain checks when moving and oh since they love to go full out that one equals one barrel rolling wave serpeant. It can't kill out right but it can sure at heck kneecap them badly. (Holofield THAT)

[Giga]

I find Heavy Support slots to be poor sources of anti-tank firepower. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with this 100%. By far the best anti-tank in a vanilla list is in Fast Attack. I'm talking, of course, about multimelta attack bikes and multimelta/heavy flamer land speeders. My other sources of reliable anti-tank are also command squads (4x meltagun) and sternguard (all those meltaguns & combimeltas). :)

 

But that just goes back to my argument that melta is just better.

[Koremu]

I find Heavy Support slots to be poor sources of anti-tank firepower. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with this 100%. By far the best anti-tank in a vanilla list is in Fast Attack. I'm talking, of course, about multimelta attack bikes and multimelta/heavy flamer land speeders. My other sources of reliable anti-tank are also command squads (4x meltagun) and sternguard (all those meltaguns & combimeltas). :D

 

But that just goes back to my argument that melta is just better.

The main reason that Melta works better for Marines is that our regular operational distance is around Melta range. When your squads are generally in the enemies face anyway, non-melta weaponry just isn't as neccessary.

 

The Lascannon and Missile Launcher, while reasonable long-range weaponry in general, just aren't as effective as a Meltagun.

 

And it's a LOT harder to wipe out 6 or 7 Meltagunners in 3 different units than it is to stop one AT unit or Squad(ron) from firing.

[Vaaish]

I think that an important point to make here between the OP and Giga is that Giga's argument seems to be centered around infantry ranges while the OP is targeted mostly at vehicle ranges. I tend to find that lascannons are a necessity and should be taken to give that extra push at long range to ensure a target goes down. Not taking any of them gives an opponent more freedom to operate until he reaches your shorter infantry engagement range with his heavier armor and even his transports. However, I believe lascannons should end up on dreads, predators, and even Land Raiders because all of them can still net mobility while firing and can mount other long range weapons to complement the lascannon. Where I agree with Giga is that melta weapons are very important in units at are designed to implement them. Infantry is stuck with the bolter, it's a simple as that and taking anything that doesn't work to the same ranges or capabilities of a bolter means you are tempted to use that one longer ranged weapon and ignore the other 90% of your squad. For instance, if you have three squads of ten men with missile launchers/Plasma, it's tempting to use the heavy weapons instead of maneuvering the squad because it gives you a chance to damage the enemy immediately. In a different situation, having the same three squads with MM forces you to maneuver the squad in such a way that it brings the WHOLE squad into range giving you the extra plasma and bolter rounds. We are assuming that the target isn't always going to be armor or you won't get far with the bolter rounds, but the point remains that you can bring more of your total firepower to bear.

[GreatEscape_13]

Good discussion and reminder. Kudos to the OP. It's easy to think that melta is the only choice for dealing with vehicles, but there are many other weapons that can be included in an army that excel--particularly under different circumstances such as range, cover, or army selection. And particularly, don't forget the contribution of hth for anti-vehicle purposes. A scout sergeant with a power fist can do wonders.

 

Cheers.

[Giga]

Vaaish understands perfectly what I'm trying to say.

 

Lascannons and missile launchers are good in that I think every SM list should have some such long-range anti-tank for that odd long-range kill or to pop wounds in monstrous creatures at extreme ranges. But you can't rely on it, and it doesn't complement the rest of your army nearly as well as melta does. Melta is still better on the whole, and IMHO should be the main anti-tank weapon of space marine armies mainly because it has such great synergy with the rest of mainstay SM weapons such as bolters and flamers.

 

 

 

 

And really, ask yourself: is it such a great use to pop all those transports at extreme ranges, anyway? Let's say you're fighting a khorne army and you pop all their rhinos when they're still 30" or more from your lines. An exploding rhino will kill 1-2 of its passengers, and then you got a bunch of CSM footslogging towards you, and while they're a lot less dangerous that way, you still need to get close to them to finish them off with rapid fire/assault, or to take/contest objectives from them. No matter what you do, you'll still have to slug it out with them sooner or later, and you won't be able to do that from 40" away.

[thade]

I really enjoy my devestator squad; it's lascannon-tastic, and keeps much of the center of the table clear of transports (one way or the other).

 

How many Lascannons and how many in the squad?

 

This is their strength and weakness right here. :P I ran out of legs and was a bit excited about heavies...so...the squad composition is 1 serg, 3 LCs and 1 PC. No bolter guys for buffers. Once I get the $ up I will be buying a tac box which I'll use to build the rest of the heavy weapons and to fill that squad out with bolter guys to soak hits...and I'll reduce the number of heavies in it, likely, as right now it's admittedly a lot of points in small basket.

 

But WHAT a basket. I've been sitting the five of them in whatever ruin I bolster for my snipers (usually at my home objective) and they double very nicely in the roles of anti-transport (3 lascannon hits are reasonably good against a Rhino) and they are nice against infantry at range.

 

As I combat squad my marines and have a LR with a vanguard and two HQs in it, there are a LOT of targets on the board...the Devs are not a priority target until very late in the game, meaning in the few weeks I've been fielding them they've been a lot of fun.

[unbeliever87]

Great thread, and I definitely agree that taking a balanced arsenal to destroy armour is the best way to go.

 

I played an allied 1000 point battle against IG a few days ago, where my three MM Attack Bikes (not in the same unit!) were destroyed in my opponents first turn. Aside from this I had very little that could harm 2 x LR Battle Tanks and 2 x Hydras; needless to say the rest of the battle didn't go so well! A TL-Lascannon Dreadnought or a Typhoon ML could have changed things (though not a great deal I imagine...).

[Captain Idaho]

Another thing to consider is Space Marines are a curious mixture of ranged firepower and close ranged ability. Here's my list to consider, and it is competetive before you try and poo-poo it:

 

HQ

 

Chapter Master - Relic Blade and Storm shield

= 170pts

 

Librarian - Might of Heros and Avenger

= 100pts

 

Honour Guard - +2 extra Honour Guard, Chapter Banner and Relic Blade on the Chapter Champion

= 225pts

 

TROOPS

 

Tactical squad - +5 extra Tactical Marines, Melta gun, Lascannon and Power fist on the sergeant

= 210pts

 

Mounted in a Rhino - Extra Storm Bolter

= 45pts

 

Tactical squad - +5 extra Tactical Marines, Melta gun, Missile Launcher and Power fist on the sergeant

= 200pts

 

Mounted in a Rhino

= 35pts

 

Tactical Squad

= 90pts

 

Mounted in a Razorback

= 40pts

 

ELITES

 

Dreadnought - Twin linked Lascannon

= 135pts

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

Landraider

= 250pts

 

Total = 1,500pts

 

This list has some it's most powerful attacks up close (Honour Guard and Tactical Marines rely on it primarily, while the Librarian hits hard with the Avenger. The ranged firepower I do have is not going to win any battles on it's own or wipe units off the board easily, but what I do use to great effect is a slow advance early turns, picking away with my heavy weapons in my Tacticals and mounted on my vehicles. Against the new for example Space Wolves I would target the transports first with my superior firepower and put the pups on the ground so I can weaken them and disrupt their movement.

 

Anyway, this brings me onto having a long ranged capability, such as a few Missile Launchers and Lascannons, and it gives you options. Chipping away at a force that is equal to yours makes that force weaker than yours when they get closer. It's not about stopping the enemy dead all the time, its about putting things in your favour.

 

And although my list above is quite short ranged (themed due to Honour Guard) the Space Marine army list is more than capable of adding in long ranged power units. Typhoons, Predators, Landspeeders with dual heavy bolters squadroned together (2 such costs 120pts and has 12 S5 shots a turn!), Landraiders, Thunderfires and Dreadnoughts, all these units add their firepower together to really be able to hit at range and chip away at opponents until they are at a manageable level for the infantry to finish them off.

[Warp Angel]

I run with a mix of fast delivery platforms and static, longer ranged weaponry.

 

In a 2000 point army, I typically have:

 

1 TL Assault Cannon (move and fire)

3 Multi Melta (two can move and fire)

1 Plasma Cannon (static)

3 Melta Gun (move and fire) - one is on a dreadnaught

1 Thunderfire (static)

1 Typhoon w/HB (move and fire)

1 Vindicator (move and fire)

1 TL Heavy Bolter (move and fire)

 

Against light transports I have a more than acceptable number of 24" ranged weapons to stop my opponent cold, and the kind of weapons platforms I deploy means that I generally only have to use one or two units to do so. Against things like Chimeras and Guard artillery, I've got fast moving power fists and relic blades to add to the pain.

 

To minimize the risk of cracking them up close with meltaguns or power fists, I have 6 S6 or better template weapons to hit the troops that bail out, with the possibility of frag missiles and flamers to add to the pain.

 

I have enough mechanized units in my army that I can form a wall of vehicles that prevents most opponents (pesky Eldar) from getting to my squishies if I can't take out all the transports before they get close enough to be a threat.

 

I have sufficient volume of fire and speed to threaten my enemy's mobile armor.

 

And the resulting mix of weapons still leaves me with the volume of fire and range to deal with MCs and 2+ saves.

 

The trick is coordinating it all successfully.

[Fetterkey]

The main reason that Melta works better for Marines is that our regular operational distance is around Melta range. When your squads are generally in the enemies face anyway, non-melta weaponry just isn't as neccessary.

 

I disagree with the idea of a "regular operational distance." My forces are rather flexible, whereas enemy forces are usually not; I engage at whatever distance will cause the greatest disruption to the enemy plan.

[Koremu]

The main reason that Melta works better for Marines is that our regular operational distance is around Melta range. When your squads are generally in the enemies face anyway, non-melta weaponry just isn't as neccessary.

 

I disagree with the idea of a "regular operational distance." My forces are rather flexible, whereas enemy forces are usually not; I engage at whatever distance will cause the greatest disruption to the enemy plan.

The Boltgun and Bolt Pistol have a regular operational distance. It's 12". 24", while possible, is stationary range and at half effect.

 

Thus, to fight with any degree of mobility is to fight at 18" range and below (12" range and 6" move).

 

Exceptions can be made with specific units, but for the bulk of all PA forces, 12" is primary engagement range.

[minigun762]

The main reason that Melta works better for Marines is that our regular operational distance is around Melta range. When your squads are generally in the enemies face anyway, non-melta weaponry just isn't as neccessary.

 

I disagree with the idea of a "regular operational distance." My forces are rather flexible, whereas enemy forces are usually not; I engage at whatever distance will cause the greatest disruption to the enemy plan.

The Boltgun and Bolt Pistol have a regular operational distance. It's 12". 24", while possible, is stationary range and at half effect.

 

Thus, to fight with any degree of mobility is to fight at 18" range and below (12" range and 6" move).

 

Exceptions can be made with specific units, but for the bulk of all PA forces, 12" is primary engagement range.

 

I agree Koremu but I think a distinction needs to be made between Power Armor units and Power Armor armies.

12" is the effective range of Power Armor units like Tactical squads, but different unit within the army have different effective ranges (Terminators/Vindicators are 24+, Predators/Whirlwinds/Devastators are 36+ etc).

[Koremu]

The main reason that Melta works better for Marines is that our regular operational distance is around Melta range. When your squads are generally in the enemies face anyway, non-melta weaponry just isn't as neccessary.

 

I disagree with the idea of a "regular operational distance." My forces are rather flexible, whereas enemy forces are usually not; I engage at whatever distance will cause the greatest disruption to the enemy plan.

The Boltgun and Bolt Pistol have a regular operational distance. It's 12". 24", while possible, is stationary range and at half effect.

 

Thus, to fight with any degree of mobility is to fight at 18" range and below (12" range and 6" move).

 

Exceptions can be made with specific units, but for the bulk of all PA forces, 12" is primary engagement range.

 

I agree Koremu but I think a distinction needs to be made between Power Armor units and Power Armor armies.

12" is the effective range of Power Armor units like Tactical squads, but different unit within the army have different effective ranges (Terminators/Vindicators are 24+, Predators/Whirlwinds/Devastators are 36+ etc).

 

None of the listed units can carry melta. Except Chaos Terminator Squads, and I think we all know how well Termicide Melta Squads work.

 

Of the non-Infantry units that can carry melta, all of them are either fast, bikes or an Assault Vehicle. The first two can be wherever the hell they want anyway, Bikes also have Assault Capability, so they like to be close, and Assault Vehicles have a reason to be close too.

 

Standard Operational Engagement range with a Space Marine Army is 12". Anything that's beyond that is either a backup option (and yes, that even includes Terminators having 24" range), or a specialist long range unit.

[minigun762]

Standard Operational Engagement range with a Space Marine Army is 12". Anything that's beyond that is either a backup option (and yes, that even includes Terminators having 24" range), or a specialist long range unit.

 

Ahh I see, we're discussing just Melta units.

Yep I agree with that assessment then. :)