Noise Marines and Berzerkers

[Pack-Lieutenant Rakt]

I've just been reading the back end of the Gav Thorpe thread, and I had a fluff question about Noise Marines and Berzerkers. I know a decent amount of the fluff, but haven't been in the game that long so I wanted your opinion. I understand that Emperor's Children and World Eaters are not the best of friends, but I thought that not all Noise Marines were EC and not all Berzerkers were WE. From a fluff point of view, could a renegade warband where some normal marines have degenerated to cult worship have both Noise Marines and Berzerkers? I'm aware they wouldn't particularly like each other, but there also wouldn't be the history that EC and WE share, so a reasonably strong willed Chaos Lord could hold the warband together. What do you reckon?

[Lord Kharloth]

Yep, as far as i know, other non-legion chaos war bands have their own versions of noise marines and bezerkers, and its entirely possible for them to work together (albeit reluctantly).

[Starblayde]

From the Khorne article on Lexicanium:

 

"Although Khorne despises the use of magic and accordingly hates Tzeentch, Slaanesh is his opposite, Khorne and Slaanesh personifying two entirely opposing aspects of Chaos. Slaanesh, considered a weakling without martial pride or honour, incurs most of Khorne's hatred."

 

Supposedly only the World Eaters have the Beserker implant technology but, in order to be able to paint and field non-WE Bezerkers, other Legions even of other Gods are allowed to have Bezerkers game-wise. This keeps the both the fluff and gaming lords appeased.

 

Perhaps a Lord of Chaos Undivided/Undecided would be able to keep a warband of different worshippers happy outside of the battles, but it would be an army constantly with internal divisions. Bezerkers are, of course, about massacring things while NMs are so over-stimulated that only the most intense sights and sounds can register on their senses, which are two quite different things to be found in the same band.

[Dammeron]

The enmity between the World Eaters and the Emperor's Children is quite deep and multi faceted.

 

First of all, before they even began to worship their respective patrons, the two legions were philosophically opposed; whereas Angron and his warriors emphasised all out aggression and might at arms, the Emperor's Children favoured more precise, almost surgical strikes in which war was conducted much like work of art in and of itself. Furthermore, the Emperor's Children's regard for art and culture affronted the World Eater's utilitarianism: they regarded themselves as warriors and living weapons, and anything that existed outside of that purpose was a waste of energy and resources. As a result, they regarded the Emperor's Children as effete and preening fops, just as the Emperor's Children regarded the World Eaters as uncouth and simplistic barbarians.

 

These enmities became exaggerated when they fell to their respective patron deities, as Khorne and Slaanesh occupy opposite poles of the Chaos spectrum: whereas Khorne is single minded and selfless in his devotion to purpose (i.e. that of fomenting war, reaping blood and skulls, etc), Slaanesh is sly, subtle and self indulgent; obsessed with what Khorne undoubtedly regards as the ephemera and minutiae of existence. As such, the World Eaters and Emperor's Children have developed a religious intolerance of one another ontop of the historical enmity they share.

[chillin]

Has nothing to do with the WE's and EC not likeing each other. It's that their patron gods HATE each other. Slanny thinks khorne is a, uncivilized, boarish, brute and khorne thinks slanny is a pillow biting pansy. They hate each other so their followers hate each other and want to kill each other. So it wouldn't make any difference at all that they were non-WE brzrkrs and non-EC NM's. The war band would pull itself apart or one side would destroy the other once 1/2 started worshipping K and the other 1/2 S. So from a fluff point of view it wouldn't happen.

[The_Crippster]

Well, in the new codex it states that other legions DO have psychosergions, but only the ones from black legion and world eaters are any good.

 

So yeah, some chaos lord could go make some zerkers, but fluffwise they'd be pretty lousy.

[incinerator950]

Where does it say the other Legions have them? They have apotheocaries left over, but not the ones the WE used to do neurosurgery. Very few people would have access to that, likewise very few renegade Nurgle Sorcs who can make Plague Marines exist outside the BL and DG.

[Chimerical]

The way I see it is like this: Other than Emperor's Children and World Eaters, no other chaos legions or renegade warbands have access to genuine Noise Marines or Berzerkers. That's because the evolution of those types of marines is tied to the unique histories of both those legions.

 

Black Legion can use both types because they are able to unite some of the disparate forces of Chaos against the Imperium. But that doesn't mean BL can produce Berzerkers/Noise Marines, they can just call upon them and maybe integrate them from their original legions (WE and EC).

 

I refuse to acknowledge any official fluff to the contrary, such as is implied in the current codex. No way would these small fry renegade warbands be given the services of those great founding legions. I'm completely okay with someone making their own chapters/warbands/legions that have fluff to the contrary, but just recognise it's a DIY thing, not official.

 

Other legions and warbands, however, can still worship any of the Chaos Gods, and conceivably even have allegiances to different Gods within the same warband. They might get certain daemonic gifts for this, but they wouldn't just turn into Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, or Rubik Marines (A.k.a. Thousand Sons in current codex).

 

To summarise (with heavy use of acronyms):

 

Not all EC/WE/DG are NMs/KBs/PMs.

But, all NMs/KBs/PMs are from EC/WE/DG.

[incinerator950]

Actually, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines exist outside their legion. This was even more prevalent in 3.5 where having the mark made you one. Now it's a little tricky, but Gav Thorpe left it open for whatever you want <_<.

 

Renegade Sorc of Nurgle turns a quarter of a chapter into Plague Marines, because they are beset by plagues. They do favors and tasks and he probably takes leadership.

 

World Eaters seperated as well as Emperor's Children. No Brainer on how Warbands and certain legions are getting their cultists <_<

 

Rubric Marines are the hardest, because you have to justify why a Sorcerer outside of Ahriman's Cabal would leave the Legion.

[Corpse.]

Apparently GW didn't like the fact that people felt limited by fluff. So they made fluff so that people can buy what they want. Just like codex daemons, just like codex eldar, just like codex space wolves, orks and space marines.

 

In all honestly you would get more creativity points with me if you abused the counts-as function firmly instilled into 40k as of 4th and 5th edition. (made rock solid in 5th edition)

 

Berzerkers that are knights, so they have their honor to follow their leader. Noise Marines as the harem, to follow their leader (nasty I know, but how else would you represent them?). Plague marines as the executioners, and the thousand sons as the bishops and scribes of the leader. Go as far as calling your leader a king if it helps.

 

Make up any means you like.

[Chimerical]

Actually, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines exist outside their legion. This was even more prevalent in 3.5 where having the mark made you one.

 

If I remember correctly, you could only use the marks if you're whole army was using the same mark (i.e. you were that cult legion), or you were playing Black Legion. And even Black Legion was somewhat restricted in combining the cult marks by that ancient enemies rule.

 

You could make your own paint scheme, make your own post hoc fluff rationales like you have provided, but you were still playing 'counts as' Black Legion rules, the 'vanilla' rules, as distinct from the special rules for the eight other chaos legions.

[IronWinds]

To clarify, any vanilla/BL army could take marks in 3.5, but when you did those units counted as elites. Only pure khorne forces could take bezerkers as troop choices, same for the other cult armies.

 

And you couldn't have a unit with a mark opposing that of your HQ units. So a khorne HQ, no EC.

 

And the servants of khorne hate the servants of slannesh. The new rules are the problem, not the fluff. It is unfluffy to have both units in an army... unless its a very big army and the commander is undivided.... like Abbadon for instance.

 

Even then the two units shouldn't be near each other. In epic there are similar rules to the 3.5 codex. Don't have them off hand, but I don't think you can have opposing gods in the same formation(1 formation=a 40k army) and if opposing units do get close to each other they have penalties for doing so. Not 100% sure, don't quote me on that but I'm fairly sure it is one or the other, or both.

 

Rubric Marines are the hardest, because you have to justify why a Sorcerer outside of Ahriman's Cabal would leave the Legion.

 

Your lord made an agreement with the Thousand sons/or Ahriman, he gets their help, he finds any ancient scrolls he gives them to them. Or a single sorcerer and his direct followers left the thousand sons and joined your army. Either work.

 

If you BL.... Abbadon commanded it.

 

Now one thing that makes no sense.... any army being able to take any special character. Really... EC can take Kharne? Kharne got his reputation and the favour of Khorne.... in a battle against the Emperor's Children. Yup that makes since, I'm sure they would work together just fine :D .

[incinerator950]

Actually, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines exist outside their legion. This was even more prevalent in 3.5 where having the mark made you one.

 

If I remember correctly, you could only use the marks if you're whole army was using the same mark (i.e. you were that cult legion), or you were playing Black Legion. And even Black Legion was somewhat restricted in combining the cult marks by that ancient enemies rule.

 

You could make your own paint scheme, make your own post hoc fluff rationales like you have provided, but you were still playing 'counts as' Black Legion rules, the 'vanilla' rules, as distinct from the special rules for the eight other chaos legions.

 

No, your Lord had to have the Mark, or play as Black Legion. Or have an Undivided Lord but you were still abiding to the opposites rule as well. Units with marks were Elites in 3.5 if it's got one of the 4 marks, and your Lord was not with said Mark not including unmarked/undivided.

 

I don't like counts as unless it's gear, and when I mean gear, I mean flamers, meltaguns, wings, mini <_<.

[Kabbala]

Ultimately, it's a game. If playing according to fluff is fun for you, go for it. If being loyal to the fluff is not your highest priority when building your army list, so what. Have fun, it's why we PLAY (emphasis on play) Warhammer 40K.

[DrDoom]

Actually, Berzerkers, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines exist outside their legion. This was even more prevalent in 3.5 where having the mark made you one.

 

If I remember correctly, you could only use the marks if you're whole army was using the same mark (i.e. you were that cult legion), or you were playing Black Legion. And even Black Legion was somewhat restricted in combining the cult marks by that ancient enemies rule.

 

You could make your own paint scheme, make your own post hoc fluff rationales like you have provided, but you were still playing 'counts as' Black Legion rules, the 'vanilla' rules, as distinct from the special rules for the eight other chaos legions.

 

 

Ancient enemies applied to applied to specific marks of the gods, and then only to thier opposites in the Chaos pantheon. Undivided lords could go crazy with the marks.

[satanaka]

This could work to some extent.

 

If you look at page 21 of the C:CSM, you'll see the Skulltakers, dedicated to Khorne.

 

The Violators from Codex: Eye of Terror were dedicated to Slaanesh, as are the Flawless Host on page 20 of the C;CSM.

 

I think it could be possible for these warbands, or at the very least, elements of them, to team up without triggering the WE/EC enmity.

[incinerator950]

yes, but you'd need a good Lord. I understand it can be justified, but there would be an extremely high probability that those two would just go at each others throats.

 

Just because both are Renegade Astartes doesn't mean they'll be buddy buddy as soon as they meet.

 

Also, iirc, didn' Vraks listed Skulltakers as a sub faction of the World Eaters, where Violators are just a Space Marine chapter gone rogue to slaanesh?

[satanaka]

yes, but you'd need a good Lord. I understand it can be justified, but there would be an extremely high probability that those two would just go at each others throats.

 

Just because both are Renegade Astartes doesn't mean they'll be buddy buddy as soon as they meet.

 

Also, iirc, didn' Vraks listed Skulltakers as a sub faction of the World Eaters, where Violators are just a Space Marine chapter gone rogue to slaanesh?

 

No clue, I still don't have Vraks 2 or 3 yet, and they aren't listed in Vraks 1 that I can remember.

[Pack-Lieutenant Rakt]

Hi folks, thanks for your input. One of the themes behind my warband is that it's a group of disparate squads being held together by the skin of its teeth, with different factions vying for power, constantly looking for an opportunity to topple the current Lord and claim leadership for themselves. They fight the common enemy for the gods of chaos, but when no enemy is present it takes a canny leader to stop them fighting themselves. So having bezerkers and noise marines snarling at each other, only being held appart by my Lord because his stick is bigger than theirs, kind of suits me.

[incinerator950]

If you have two seperate HQ units you should name them Herp and Derp

[minigun762]

Hi folks, thanks for your input. One of the themes behind my warband is that it's a group of disparate squads being held together by the skin of its teeth, with different factions vying for power, constantly looking for an opportunity to topple the current Lord and claim leadership for themselves. They fight the common enemy for the gods of chaos, but when no enemy is present it takes a canny leader to stop them fighting themselves. So having bezerkers and noise marines snarling at each other, only being held appart by my Lord because his stick is bigger than theirs, kind of suits me.

 

And that kind of logic works... to a degree.

 

Personally I find it easier to justify if the leader is a Daemon Prince, because then its not a case of one Marine telling another one what to do, but someone so gifted by the dark gods as to reach daemonhood.

That kind of person/thing you tend to listen to, if only out of fear.