SW Codex Q and A from BoLS

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Well until I see the ruling as otherwise I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Not that its really that bad of a thing. Honeslty I would rather just take them as troops in the first place if I were to do it (not getting into that debate again) and just pack my army full to the brim with Termies. Its not like you would ever be able to afford such a massive wolf army anyways. Unless I am mistaken the absolute max you could fill with WG with troops and HQ retinue before moving on to Elite would still be 100 (assuming you had the points to take all six Troop slots with them and then your 'two HQ per slot' Two slots each with a Retinue attached to a character)

 

Still if they no longer count as Elite as you say I think the wording should be cleared up.

[kittenofdeath]

Just reading some of Stelek's answers too:

 

He says Ragnar and 2 wolves can not go in a Drop Pod. You can always buy a Drop Pod for a unit regardless of size. So Ragnar, 2 Wolves and a 5 man Grey Hunter/Blood Claws/PA Wolf Guard squad could ride in a Drop Pod. That's the 10 capacity.

 

He also says that models embarked in a vehicle removed by Lukas' Stasis Bomb can get out. They cannot. He references damage results on the vehicle damage chart. That chart is as irrelevant to the situation as the Eternal Warrior rule is to infantry models being removed from play. Any model in b2b simply disappears from the tabletop. There is no emergency disembark because there is no damage done to the vehicle.

 

And he also makes the same mistake re: Logan and WG as Troops.

 

I still don't get why people disagree with this rather forward ruling about Logan and troops. It does not say that they count as troops INSTEAD of anything, they simply can be taken in troop slots. Its just like in the last codex when we could take a Ven Dred as HQ or Elite. Taking one as an HQ didn't stop you from taking one as an Elite did it?

 

The WG thing seems very simple to me really. They count as troops, therefore Wolf guard taken from troop slots can score as troops and are taken from troop slots. Other Wolf gaurd packs that are not taken as such do NOT count as troops and do not score. Could this lead to a bit of confusion in the game proper? yes. Would it be the first time with GW? no. If the FAQ ends up saying otherwise then that is one thing but honestly it seems like you can take them as either and I have yet to see something contradict them.

 

wern't the ven dreds 0-1?

[SamaNagol]

Well until I see the ruling as otherwise I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Not that its really that bad of a thing. Honeslty I would rather just take them as troops in the first place if I were to do it (not getting into that debate again) and just pack my army full to the brim with Termies. Its not like you would ever be able to afford such a massive wolf army anyways. Unless I am mistaken the absolute max you could fill with WG with troops and HQ retinue before moving on to Elite would still be 100 (assuming you had the points to take all six Troop slots with them and then your 'two HQ per slot' Two slots each with a Retinue attached to a character)

 

Still if they no longer count as Elite as you say I think the wording should be cleared up.

 

I don't know if you have the codex yet, but you cannot take WG as retinues anymore.

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

Well until I see the ruling as otherwise I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Not that its really that bad of a thing. Honeslty I would rather just take them as troops in the first place if I were to do it (not getting into that debate again) and just pack my army full to the brim with Termies. Its not like you would ever be able to afford such a massive wolf army anyways. Unless I am mistaken the absolute max you could fill with WG with troops and HQ retinue before moving on to Elite would still be 100 (assuming you had the points to take all six Troop slots with them and then your 'two HQ per slot' Two slots each with a Retinue attached to a character)

 

Still if they no longer count as Elite as you say I think the wording should be cleared up.

 

I don't know if you have the codex yet, but you cannot take WG as retinues anymore.

 

Ok wait, WHAT?

 

No I don't have it yet, but this is, again, something that is making me consider not getting it. I mean if you can't take GH as Retinue anymore then what are you supposed to take? GH? BC? you may as well just take some token HQ and let him jump into the fray and die quickly! Wasn't the whole point of the WG that they GUARDED the wolf lord?

 

At this point I am glad I have not payed for the Codex yet, because if I had pre-ordered it I'd have sold it for that. Its one thing to try and keep WL from having a Frost axe while in TDA armor, I can write that off as a typo and ignore it. Heck I can even accept nella Land Raiders with reduced capacity. But just who got the bright idea in their heads that you couldn't take WG Retinue anymore? What am I supposed to do, use up an Elite slot for every HQ, attach my HQ choices to them and just accept that I can't take scouts or dreads? I would have to pay hundreds of dollars to make my army viable now!

 

Forget it. This just is not worth it.

[kittenofdeath]

Well until I see the ruling as otherwise I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Not that its really that bad of a thing. Honeslty I would rather just take them as troops in the first place if I were to do it (not getting into that debate again) and just pack my army full to the brim with Termies. Its not like you would ever be able to afford such a massive wolf army anyways. Unless I am mistaken the absolute max you could fill with WG with troops and HQ retinue before moving on to Elite would still be 100 (assuming you had the points to take all six Troop slots with them and then your 'two HQ per slot' Two slots each with a Retinue attached to a character)

 

Still if they no longer count as Elite as you say I think the wording should be cleared up.

 

I don't know if you have the codex yet, but you cannot take WG as retinues anymore.

 

Ok wait, WHAT?

 

No I don't have it yet, but this is, again, something that is making me consider not getting it. I mean if you can't take GH as Retinue anymore then what are you supposed to take? GH? BC? you may as well just take some token HQ and let him jump into the fray and die quickly! Wasn't the whole point of the WG that they GUARDED the wolf lord?

 

At this point I am glad I have not payed for the Codex yet, because if I had pre-ordered it I'd have sold it for that. Its one thing to try and keep WL from having a Frost axe while in TDA armor, I can write that off as a typo and ignore it. Heck I can even accept nella Land Raiders with reduced capacity. But just who got the bright idea in their heads that you couldn't take WG Retinue anymore? What am I supposed to do, use up an Elite slot for every HQ, attach my HQ choices to them and just accept that I can't take scouts or dreads? I would have to pay hundreds of dollars to make my army viable now!

 

Forget it. This just is not worth it.

 

... what? wolfguard took elite choices back in third, yes, you do have to use a FOC for them if you want them for your HQ's

[Wispy]

I'm pretty new to 40k in general (8 months in!), but it's to my understanding full blown retinues and bodyguards are being phased out?

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

A slot, not 'a slot per HQ'. Without the ability to take them as a Retinue you have to buy the WG for EACH HQ in the numbers and configuration you want, whereas unless I was mistaken though my whole time of using the old dex you spent the slot once on the FOC and got WG as Retinue for anyone who got a Retinue and as pack leaders, and could have 20 total. It was exciting too since I got to tack on some TDA boys to my TDA lord and throw them in an LRC, throw two behind my bike-riding rune priest and STILL got to put them in front of every pack I had. All that and I still had two more slots to use up on Dreds and scouts!

 

Now unless I'm missing something each instance of WG other than the pack upgrade is going to end up costing me a slot and I won't even have enough Guard to go on a fourth HQ if I need them to let alone have room for the scouts and Dreads that were integral to my old strategy. That means my two ven dreds, my scouts and potentially my WG termies are all useless! That is the VAST bulk of my army both points-wise and monetarily! At that point the only things I would not have to repurchase would be my GH, BC and vehicles. Why even bother?

[Massaen]

spot on - retinues are thing of versions past - welcome to 5th ed!

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

spot on - retinues are thing of versions past - welcome to 5th ed!

 

Well I already knew the 5th Ed SM codex sucked, and if this is how the game is going to continue I think it is about time I mothball my army until we get another codex... in 9 years.

[kittenofdeath]

A slot, not 'a slot per HQ'. Without the ability to take them as a Retinue you have to buy the WG for EACH HQ in the numbers and configuration you want, whereas unless I was mistaken though my whole time of using the old dex you spent the slot once on the FOC and got WG as Retinue for anyone who got a Retinue and as pack leaders, and could have 20 total. It was exciting too since I got to tack on some TDA boys to my TDA lord and throw them in an LRC, throw two behind my bike-riding rune priest and STILL got to put them in front of every pack I had. All that and I still had two more slots to use up on Dreds and scouts!

 

Now unless I'm missing something each instance of WG other than the pack upgrade is going to end up costing me a slot and I won't even have enough Guard to go on a fourth HQ if I need them to let alone have room for the scouts and Dreads that were integral to my old strategy. That means my two ven dreds, my scouts and potentially my WG termies are all useless! That is the VAST bulk of my army both points-wise and monetarily! At that point the only things I would not have to repurchase would be my GH, BC and vehicles. Why even bother?

 

so you cant use all of your stuff, big whoop, each WG slot is a 3-10 man unit which you can split members of off to act as pack leaders, you're just going to have to run your HQs with normal squads, which just so you know, are freaking awesome now, if its killing you that much then just take logan and get them as troops

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

A slot, not 'a slot per HQ'. Without the ability to take them as a Retinue you have to buy the WG for EACH HQ in the numbers and configuration you want, whereas unless I was mistaken though my whole time of using the old dex you spent the slot once on the FOC and got WG as Retinue for anyone who got a Retinue and as pack leaders, and could have 20 total. It was exciting too since I got to tack on some TDA boys to my TDA lord and throw them in an LRC, throw two behind my bike-riding rune priest and STILL got to put them in front of every pack I had. All that and I still had two more slots to use up on Dreds and scouts!

 

Now unless I'm missing something each instance of WG other than the pack upgrade is going to end up costing me a slot and I won't even have enough Guard to go on a fourth HQ if I need them to let alone have room for the scouts and Dreads that were integral to my old strategy. That means my two ven dreds, my scouts and potentially my WG termies are all useless! That is the VAST bulk of my army both points-wise and monetarily! At that point the only things I would not have to repurchase would be my GH, BC and vehicles. Why even bother?

 

so you cant use all of your stuff, big whoop, each WG slot is a 3-10 man unit which you can split members of off to act as pack leaders, you're just going to have to run your HQs with normal squads, which just so you know, are freaking awesome now, if its killing you that much then just take logan and get them as troops

 

I don't HAVE the money to spend on this crap! I had to skip eating two out of three meals for a week just to save up the money I was going to use to get the codex! They have already rendered my army list entirely useless, and frankly I would rather not play than put some crappy BC or GH pack with my HQ. As for Logan as I have said elsewhere I don't use characters or 'count as' and this whole idiotic retooling of 40K is ticking me off. I hate to derail a topic, but good lord what are the Devs smoking that makes them think this is a good idea?

[kittenofdeath]

A slot, not 'a slot per HQ'. Without the ability to take them as a Retinue you have to buy the WG for EACH HQ in the numbers and configuration you want, whereas unless I was mistaken though my whole time of using the old dex you spent the slot once on the FOC and got WG as Retinue for anyone who got a Retinue and as pack leaders, and could have 20 total. It was exciting too since I got to tack on some TDA boys to my TDA lord and throw them in an LRC, throw two behind my bike-riding rune priest and STILL got to put them in front of every pack I had. All that and I still had two more slots to use up on Dreds and scouts!

 

Now unless I'm missing something each instance of WG other than the pack upgrade is going to end up costing me a slot and I won't even have enough Guard to go on a fourth HQ if I need them to let alone have room for the scouts and Dreads that were integral to my old strategy. That means my two ven dreds, my scouts and potentially my WG termies are all useless! That is the VAST bulk of my army both points-wise and monetarily! At that point the only things I would not have to repurchase would be my GH, BC and vehicles. Why even bother?

 

so you cant use all of your stuff, big whoop, each WG slot is a 3-10 man unit which you can split members of off to act as pack leaders, you're just going to have to run your HQs with normal squads, which just so you know, are freaking awesome now, if its killing you that much then just take logan and get them as troops

 

I don't HAVE the money to spend on this crap! I had to skip eating two out of three meals for a week just to save up the money I was going to use to get the codex! They have already rendered my army list entirely useless, and frankly I would rather not play than put some crappy BC or GH pack with my HQ. As for Logan as I have said elsewhere I don't use characters or 'count as' and this whole idiotic retooling of 40K is ticking me off. I hate to derail a topic, but good lord what are the Devs smoking that makes them think this is a good idea?

 

well too bad, your army list probably wont have been made unusable, you wont know until you read the codex, you think you're the only person who got screwed? this is what happens in new codex's, i have tons of models rendered unuseable

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

A slot, not 'a slot per HQ'. Without the ability to take them as a Retinue you have to buy the WG for EACH HQ in the numbers and configuration you want, whereas unless I was mistaken though my whole time of using the old dex you spent the slot once on the FOC and got WG as Retinue for anyone who got a Retinue and as pack leaders, and could have 20 total. It was exciting too since I got to tack on some TDA boys to my TDA lord and throw them in an LRC, throw two behind my bike-riding rune priest and STILL got to put them in front of every pack I had. All that and I still had two more slots to use up on Dreds and scouts!

 

Now unless I'm missing something each instance of WG other than the pack upgrade is going to end up costing me a slot and I won't even have enough Guard to go on a fourth HQ if I need them to let alone have room for the scouts and Dreads that were integral to my old strategy. That means my two ven dreds, my scouts and potentially my WG termies are all useless! That is the VAST bulk of my army both points-wise and monetarily! At that point the only things I would not have to repurchase would be my GH, BC and vehicles. Why even bother?

 

so you cant use all of your stuff, big whoop, each WG slot is a 3-10 man unit which you can split members of off to act as pack leaders, you're just going to have to run your HQs with normal squads, which just so you know, are freaking awesome now, if its killing you that much then just take logan and get them as troops

 

I don't HAVE the money to spend on this crap! I had to skip eating two out of three meals for a week just to save up the money I was going to use to get the codex! They have already rendered my army list entirely useless, and frankly I would rather not play than put some crappy BC or GH pack with my HQ. As for Logan as I have said elsewhere I don't use characters or 'count as' and this whole idiotic retooling of 40K is ticking me off. I hate to derail a topic, but good lord what are the Devs smoking that makes them think this is a good idea?

 

well too bad, your army list probably wont have been made unusable, you wont know until you read the codex, you think you're the only person who got screwed? this is what happens in new codex's, i have tons of models rendered unuseable

 

Well then I would think the simple solution is 'stop playing'.

 

Honestly amidst all the buzz and happyness too many things just seem to be turning away from waht made 40K fun in general with all this stuff in 5th, and its borderline abusive to expect people to rebuy half of their army right off the bat. I suppose if you can live with the changes though then live with them, me I have better things to spend my money on and if GW is going to treat us like trash then they have just lost themselves a customer.

[Massaen]

its borderline abusive to expect people to rebuy half of their army right off the bat.

 

I have 20 wulfen - bingo, not usable for the most part. What about my 70 odd harlequins and harlequin jetbikes... same again or at least not as an army like RT or 2nd ed. Court of the young king i converted which cost a bomb to boot - a thing of the past. Your not expected to do anything. You either get over it and play on or give up. Simple. The fact you have self imposed rules (no counts as) which inhibit you from taking your present army is your choice.

 

This is one of the best dexes i have ever seen... and i have the original SW dex right her to boot...

[littlbitz]

Please, lets try and keep things on Topic...

[Baluc]

I have to disagree with their ruling on the "multiple sagas, psychic powers or combinations of wargear" that's exactly what it says in the book. If it said you may not have multiple sagas, combinations of powers or wargear." I would agree. WD army list are not proof positive of legality any wargamer worth his salt knows we've seen illegal armylist for nigh on 10 years, why is this one suddenly legal?

[Toasterfree]

I have to disagree with their ruling on the "multiple sagas, psychic powers or combinations of wargear" that's exactly what it says in the book. If it said you may not have multiple sagas, combinations of powers or wargear." I would agree. WD army list are not proof positive of legality any wargamer worth his salt knows we've seen illegal armylist for nigh on 10 years, why is this one suddenly legal?

it does say cominations of powers, it says same powers, i was looking at it yesterday. I think named characters may be an exception to this

[Baluc]

I have to disagree with their ruling on the "multiple sagas, psychic powers or combinations of wargear" that's exactly what it says in the book. If it said you may not have multiple sagas, combinations of powers or wargear." I would agree. WD army list are not proof positive of legality any wargamer worth his salt knows we've seen illegal armylist for nigh on 10 years, why is this one suddenly legal?

it does say cominations of powers, it says same powers, i was looking at it yesterday. I think named characters may be an exception to this

 

It doesn't say combinations of powers the first line is directly from the book man.

 

"sagas, psychic powers or combinations of wargear" that is exactly what it says in the book word for word

[Roland Durendal]

OK, let's keep this at the debate level and do not make it personal and watch trolling and inflammatory commentary.

 

 

Apologies didn't mean to come off that way. Just think we should view all arguments and sides that are out there, and as such was providing a link to some other arguments out there. That's all. Just tryin to keep the brothers informed :-)

 

As for my own opinions:

 

Q1: Still iffy on this, mainly b/c Infiltrate (which the Scouts have) is a specific USR. Outflank (which the Saga grants and which the Scouts may choose to do) is a specific manner from which to enter from reserves. From what I see, all the saga allows you to do is arrive from reserves in a special manner (outflank), not infiltrate (even though a subset of the USR infiltrate is to choose to arrive from reserves via outflank). The IC's rule set is extremely limited. For example if we did attach an IC with the Saga to the scouts and the scouts ended up infiltrating instead of outflanking...would the IC infil too? No b/c he doesn't have the rule. Yet you can't leave the IC behind if he's attached so what that leads me to believe is that they cannot outflank (and in reality OBEL) along with the scouts.

 

What would have made it easier was to just give the saga Infiltrate. Though as precedent from the old 'dex shows, I think RAI was for them to be able to outflank with scouts. Awaiting a FAQ

 

Q4: Makes sense to me

Q6: Agreed. Though WD shouldn't always be relied on as a source for support, in this case the WD in question does have some good supporting evidence

Q7: Agree

Q8: If this is the AoE power I agree. If they were referring to an actual cast psychic power, disagree completely. I believe though it's to the AoE, so concur.

Q9-14: agree. 14 was iffy but it makes sense

Q15: Disagree. More than likely a typo which will be fixed. Why would we get vehicles with reduced capacity? Just shows GW's lack of continuity between their codexes

Q16: Makes sense.

Q17: I believe this is a mistake of the English language. I think they intended only the SW die to be re-rolled. Just like in the last 'dex. Plus, let's say you rolled a 2 and your opponent rolled a 3. Would you REALLY want him to re-roll his die and have a chance of scoring higher and beating you again?

Q18: Gotta disagree. Since he's an upgrade and not IC (as many have argued) his ability isn't transferred. But as mentioned here earlier, make little difference as he's LD9 and stubborn so all LD tests will be taken off that. Non issue really

Q19: Agree. Which either makes him a beast or useless upgrade. On the fence about him

 

After that pretty much agree. The Loganwing debate can go either way. "Counts as" usually means has the same rules as. Like for example my IG commander has his own name and history but is a "Counts As" Straken. He isn't Straken, just shares his rules. I know weak argument, but it's the way of thinking that counts. To me, if you want to run an all termie army go for it. Though I think what should have been written was "Counts as Troops in terms of claiming/contesting objectives" or have written "Can be taken as troops instead of/in addition to being taken as Elites". Clear. Simple. Totally un-GW like.

[mkerr]

As RAW, you need a fire point to use a psychic shooting power. It would be the same as if you wanted to fire an IG mortar out of a Chimera. You need a fire point to fire out of it, but you don't need LoS to the target.

 

Where is that RAW from? Not that I'm disagreeing with you, I'd just like to see some support for the position.

 

Logan and WG as Troops is the biggest non issue in the codex. Everyone knows exactly what was meant. And as the rule states they change their status to count as troops, they would no longer count as Elites and could not be taken in that slot. Although I doubt I will ever come across someone wanting to take 9 squads of WG.

 

The rule doesn't state that they change their status to count as troops. It says "Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar". It doesn't say "Wolf Guard units are Troops". It's not clear, which prompted the MAQ.

 

Q4: I agree that its likely they meant for it to be that way, but making that call is errata, not FAQ, that’s G’dubs territory

 

I'm not creating an errata for the rules and I'm not suggesting that my answers are official or, in any way, better than yours. I'm sharing how we'll be ruling these issues for our games and events until there is an official FAQ response.

 

Q18: lets say he doesn’t, he is still Ld 9 with stubborn, so they use his leadership (which wont be modified, even if his units is) still leadership nine anyway

 

Excellent point.

 

Apologies didn't mean to come off that way.

 

It didn't come off that way to me. I appreciate knowing your starting point.

 

Q1: Still iffy on this, mainly b/c Infiltrate (which the Scouts have) is a specific USR. Outflank (which the Saga grants and which the Scouts may choose to do) is a specific manner from which to enter from reserves. From what I see, all the saga allows you to do is arrive from reserves in a special manner (outflank), not infiltrate (even though a subset of the USR infiltrate is to choose to arrive from reserves via outflank). The IC's rule set is extremely limited. For example if we did attach an IC with the Saga to the scouts and the scouts ended up infiltrating instead of outflanking...would the IC infil too? No b/c he doesn't have the rule. Yet you can't leave the IC behind if he's attached so what that leads me to believe is that they cannot outflank (and in reality OBEL) along with the scouts.

 

Both the IC and the unit he is attached to has the ability to outflank. We agree there, right? He doesn't lose the ability to outflank just because he's attached to a unit (e.g., it's not a USR with a *). So the new, combined unit has the option of outflanking. Since the new Wolf Scout unit has the option of outflanking, BEL (also not a USR) is not lost and is an option for the new unit. Make sense?

 

What would have made it easier was to just give the saga Infiltrate. Though as precedent from the old 'dex shows, I think RAI was for them to be able to outflank with scouts. Awaiting a FAQ

 

Agreed, but I suspect they didn't want to give him a first turn charge (move six, run/fleet and charge 12" -- scout would have had a similar problem). But the best solution wasn't giving out a method of deployment instead of a USR.

 

Q15: Disagree. More than likely a typo which will be fixed. Why would we get vehicles with reduced capacity? Just shows GW's lack of continuity between their codexes

 

That would be awesome. I hate inconsistent transport capacity.

 

Q17: I believe this is a mistake of the English language. I think they intended only the SW die to be re-rolled. Just like in the last 'dex. Plus, let's say you rolled a 2 and your opponent rolled a 3. Would you REALLY want him to re-roll his die and have a chance of scoring higher and beating you again?

 

Statistically, re-rolling both dice helps the Space Wolves player. If you want, I can show you the math.

 

Though I think what should have been written was "Counts as Troops in terms of claiming/contesting objectives" or have written "Can be taken as troops instead of/in addition to being taken as Elites". Clear. Simple. Totally un-GW like.

 

From looking at the rules, I'm guessing the wording they choose was a function of the space they had. Each of these rules are tiny little boxes (as opposed to the lines in the Dark Angels and other codicies). They wanted to give us a different way of building an army but just didn't devote a large enough text box to it.

 

Thanks for the comments (especially the new way of looking at the Arjac question)!

 

-- mkerr

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Q16 is incorrect. Fenrisian Wolves taken as wargear cannot be deployed in drop pods. Page 47 is the entry for drop pods and states "It can transport up to ten infantry units or a single dreadnought. Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolves may not use Drop Pods." Bummer on that. I guess those Wolves would try sticking their heads out the window and the pod would burn up in the atmosphere. Or they dont make doggie seat belts.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Q16 is incorrect. Fenrisian Wolves taken as wargear cannot be deployed in drop pods. Page 47 is the entry for drop pods and states "It can transport up to ten infantry units or a single dreadnought. Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolves may not use Drop Pods." Bummer on that. I guess those Wolves would try sticking their heads out the window and the pod would burn up in the atmosphere. Or they dont make doggie seat belts.

[Grey Mage]

I HATE people taking BOLS stuff as canon, even if I do enjoy the site.

 

Anyways, my main issue here is the "one attempt to nullify a psychic power".

 

If that was really the case why would Rune Priests get Wolf Tail Talismans?

[Grey Mage]

sorry, double post.

[Grey Mage]

Seriously... the board was on the fritz, max, rags, bitz... would you guys delete these two extra posts for me?