DV8 Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Believe me when I say I know how you feel. I have played no end of armies in the past that have been invalidated, crippled, or ruined (for me) by the release of new books: Black Templars, I played them before Codex: Armageddon as normal shooty marines. Codex: Armageddon made them rediculous, and Codex: Black Templars ruined them. Yea I cried and moaned a little, but I had to see it coming, so you know what? I eBayed the army, and made quite a bit of profit. Deathwing. I played them from the 3rd edition Codex, and all till the new Codex: Dark Angels they were sweet (a very difficult army to play, and a definite twist on how I normally play). Then they took away half your heavy weapons, made you take Belial, and all that jazz. I was less than enthused. So I eBayed my army, made a lot of profit, and moved on. Ravenwing. I played them again from the 3rd edition Codex, and I had a style. I had my units kitted out the way I like, and I spent quite a bit on them (money and time wise) to convert and bitz them all up (I think it averaged about $30 per model?) But then Codex: Dark Angels came out and suddenly i couldn't use 1/3 of my models without building whole new squads. I was forced to take Sammael, which while similar to Master of the Ravenwing, I didn't much like. So I sold the army to a friend, broke even, and moved on. My point is buddy, it's a game. Yes, we invest time and money into this, but it is no different from any other hobby. The bottom line is what we take away from it, and that is it should be fun. The moment it stops being anything but, it is no longer a hobby, and something else entirely (heaven forbid work), and I think the moment the hobby becomes anything but fun for you, is the time for you to step away, either temporarily or permanently. Have a breather, and resituate yourself. In the end all we're really talking about is a silly game with little toy soldiers, and is really just another means for friends and like-minded individuals to get together and have some fun together! Sure there's a competitive aspect, but at the end of the day, it's a game. And has been said before, there is no need to starve yourself simply to buy hobby things. Your health (and the health of your family) comes first and foremost, and nothing should be sacrificed for that, not even this game. If you want to spend the money on this hobby, get a job. Even one that pays minimum wage would at the least buy you 3 meals a day and you can save up for this hobby. If you don't mind the extra work, buying second hand models for dirt cheap on eBay is also an option. You never have to pay retail cost at GW if you don't want; it's the price you pay for brand new, and convenience. A little hunting on eBay, bartertown, and other trading sites will probably get you what you want much cheaper. I'm not going to address your concerns about the Codex, because honestly, everybody has their own opinion and play style. You dont' play the same way I do, and the way you see the book won't be the same as the way I see the new book. But having read the Codex thoroughly, I can say without hesitation, and the book is above and beyond what we had in 3rd Edition. Yes, it took them 11 years but boy was it worth the wait. That you say you don't like the way the game is changing is fine, some people are less than adaptable to drastic change like that and sometimes it just takes more time. But to say you'll quit because you can't play the game like you used to? That you'll quit because your army doesn't work like you want it do? Like Morticon said before, that speaks bucketloads of your ability as a gamer, a tactician, and indeed your personality as a person. Don't take this the wrong way, because this isn't an attack at you, and I am in no way trying to imply the person that you are. Just know that change in this hobby/game is not the only thing that will change. Change is a constant in life, and it won't always go the way you want it to. There is something to be said of people who can face this adversity with strength and dignity, who can stand up, weather the storm, and adapt to that change. And there is something to be said of the people who cannot, or will not. I believe Heraclitus said it best, and I quote: There is nothing permanent except change. The only constant is change. It is impossible to step into the same river twice. No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. And a final quote: "Give me the grace to accept the things I cannot change, the strength to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know that it's me." DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Howland Greywolf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Right well, first of all I have noticed several illegal things in this list. A WG with TDA cannot lead a bloodclaw squad (They can now though) and a wolf guard without TDA cannot have a stormbolter (Which they can now, I think?) and GH have a minimum squad size of 6 (which is now 5) and ven dreads are 0-1 (which they arnt now). And now to modernise it. Well all the things you were doing illegaly are now legal. Then what I would do is this Swap the 2 WG on bikes for 3 swift claws and a WG on bike the WG has a power weapon 1 SC has a PW 1 SC with a special weapon and then one plain SC Get an extra wolf scout (min 5 now) remove 2 of the PW from your bloodclaws (and maby add a free flamer). remove 1 PW from the GH And drop one venerable dreadnougt. That makes it leagle and saves a LOT of points, gives youre rune preist 2 extra ablatives And all you have lost is a drednought. as for the mony side 1 biker and one scout arnt much and i suppose you have other things in your collection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Well ok then, i'll post it. Maybe I'm having a fit over nothing and its just that I can't see some specific ruling about the dex, but we will see. 1997 point space wolf army. HQ 1: Wolf Lord: Model Frost axe Tactical Dread Armor Storm Bolter Wolf tooth necklace Wolf Tail talisman Wolf Pelt Total: 129 Retinue: 6X Wolf guard 6X Terminator armor 5X Lightning claw pairs 1X Power Fist 1X Heavy Flamer 6X Wolf Pelts Total: 378 Land Raider Crusader Pintile mounted Multi-melta Total: 260 points Grand Total: 767 points HQ 2: Rune Priest Bike Rune Axe Runic Armor Total: 175 2X Wolf Guard Bodyguard 2X Bike 2X power axe 2X Melta Bomb Total: 116 Grand Total: 291 HQ 3: Ven. Dread Assault Cannon Grand Total: 155 points Eleite 1: Ven. Dreadnaught Assault Cannons Grand Total: 155 Elite 2: Wolf Guard Storm Bolter Power Fist Total: 50 points 4X Wolf Scouts 1X Melta: 10 points 2X Power weapon 1X Plasma Pistol 4X Melta Bombs Total: 106 Grand total: 151 points Troop 1: Wolf guard Power Fist Wolf Pelt Wolf Tail Talisman Bolt Pistol Total: 45 5X Grey Hunters 2X Power Weapons 1X Melta 1X Plasma Pistol Total Razorback: 70 points Grand Total: 245 points Troop 2: 1X Wolf Guard 1X Terminator Armor 1X Storm Bolter 1X Power Fist Total: 55 points 11X Bloodclaws 3X Power weapons Total: 178 points Grand total: 233 points Final Total: 1997 New Dex equivalent: Lord -> 170 TDA Pelt Talisman necklace Wolf Claw SB RP -> 155 Bike Ruinic ARmour Ruinic Weapon Bjorn -> 270 (as your Ven Dread HQ) 6 WG -> 288 TDA 5x WCs 1xPF 1x HF 2x WG -> 136 2xbikes 2xPW 2xMB 5x Scouts -> 155 1melta 1pls pst. 1pw 1wulfen 5mb 5 GHs -> 1xpls pst. 1xpw 1xwulfen 1xmelta RAZOR BACK + WG - PF -> 203 11x BC -> 1x PW + WG- TDA - PF -> 223 Land Raider (Crusader) - 250 Grand Total -> 1850 - exactly. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 If you don't mind the extra work, buying second hand models for dirt cheap on eBay is also an option. You never have to pay retail cost at GW if you don't want; it's the price you pay for brand new, and convenience. A little hunting on eBay, bartertown, and other trading sites will probably get you what you want much cheaper. with the nerfing of BCs I have an extra unit now that I dont plan on taking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Howland Greywolf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Morticon did it better than I did ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Aye, good call, Mort. I was in the middle of doing it, m'self. Well done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 bravo mort! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Well the list Mort has requries Bjorn, but otherwise apparently seems to keep it about at what I had somehow. I suppose if I don't have to totally change my play style and buy a bunch of new things its not quite as bad. I donno if I don't have to spend any additional money (or very little) then maybe I can at least try a few games. The way I've kept reading things on this site it seemed like half my army was just plain gone, and i would have had to drop 300-500 bucks fixing it up and then repainting/retesting everything. That was the kind of investment I wasn't really willing to make. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 and we were trying to tell you that you didnt have to do that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decoy Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 There ya go, mate. A Wolf never gives up so easily, and I knew you didn't have it in you to quit. You were just a bit misguided about the dex, that's all. I can understand not making that sort of investment, mate. I don't think anyone would fault you, especially if you didn't have the means. Anyways, sit back, have an ale, and wait for the dex, and make your decisions then, aye? I think you'll be just fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2126994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 and in the end if you have to do some retolling you can always ask if people have bits. i never use all of mine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Well honestly the list Mort wrote seemed to also answer another concern I had, because apparently he only used up two Elite slots to do all of this. The second I heard that you had to simply buy each WG squad as an Elite and no Retinue my thoughts were that you would have to buy the bikes, the leaders and the TDA all seperately and then either join them to someone or break them up. The way this works I can kind of see that it may have only even taken up one slot, as it seems to have ten WG. If you can kit out the WG how you want still then that is a major help to be honest, because that was one of the things I loved so much about WG to begin with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 yeah that didnt change, you just dont have a 20 man pack of them anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I hope you stick around, because even if they didn't change the dex, The old list I saw posted is illegal in quite a few ways: 1) you can't have fewer than four models in a bodyguard unit. Two on the RP isn't enough. 2) your Grey Hunter pack needs to have six members, before, you add the WG not after. 3) terminators can't lead BC packs. I'd take Morticon's advice, he seems to have recreate your list pretty well and its all legal this time. It's not about 'the list' you always use. I for one have spent a long time gathering at least one unit of everything in the dex. And my army is stronger for it. sometimes you need to go at your enemy sideways, attacking from an unanticipated angle. Keeps 'em guessing. I own a few armies by now and the one thing my buddy hates to hear is: "I'm going to use my wolves." because he knows they are hard as nails against his orks in CC, and he really isn't sure how i'm going to come at him. And with the new units in the dex, I'm getting more options, forget the RP on a bike, put him on a thunderwolf!! with a few regular thunderwolf riders on either side of him as backup. Thats tough!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I hope you stick around, because even if they didn't change the dex, The old list I saw posted is illegal in quite a few ways:1) you can't have fewer than four models in a bodyguard unit. Two on the RP isn't enough. 2) your Grey Hunter pack needs to have six members, before, you add the WG not after. 3) terminators can't lead BC packs. I'd take Morticon's advice, he seems to have recreate your list pretty well and its all legal this time. It's not about 'the list' you always use. I for one have spent a long time gathering at least one unit of everything in the dex. And my army is stronger for it. sometimes you need to go at your enemy sideways, attacking from an unanticipated angle. Keeps 'em guessing. I own a few armies by now and the one thing my buddy hates to hear is: "I'm going to use my wolves." because he knows they are hard as nails against his orks in CC, and he really isn't sure how i'm going to come at him. And with the new units in the dex, I'm getting more options, forget the RP on a bike, put him on a thunderwolf!! with a few regular thunderwolf riders on either side of him as backup. Thats tough!! i played 1700 against orks last night, and by the end of turn three i have 7 KPs, and he had two. my OP said to me I didnt know you were playing orks in Power armor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crescent fang Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 hello, new blood here... i've been reading your comments and arguments for a little while now and would just like to add in that first of all, get your facts straight from the codex, YOUR battle brothers and nothing else. so wait just a week or 2 and you'll get your answer. secondly, NEVER give up your joy over something so trivial such as tweaks in the game, because there are always going to be tweaks in the game for better or for worse finally, your a space wolf, you are one of the emperors greatest warriors in the galaxy, and you want to quit just because you can't get what YOU want? no! if your gonna tuck tail and run then give a damn good reason to! 'cause right now your betraying your brothers, your pack and the emperor just 'cause YOU can't be tactically flexible. look... i'm sorry if the game is broken, so don't hate the new just because it IS new, love the old because it made you happy and i'll gladly play an older rule game with you... just find something you enjoy and share it, but please don't get pissed off and share THAT with everyone, after all it's a game to have fun, make friends and share a hobby with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Its only a game. Posting you are leaving the hobby rather than posting that you need advice is rather bunk. Its not proper, but there are PDFs of the codex readily available. See ya. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG. Valerian Ok wait, so you can't divide the wolves up from a pack of 3 to go join other things with differing wargear? Now I'm just confused again. anyone mind explaining to me exaclty how this works? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Grimfang Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I think he is referring specifically if the WG are equipped with Bikes. The minimum you need is three for a bike pack. So get say 5 WG, three with bikes, and the other two are split off to lead packs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispy Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG. Valerian Ok wait, so you can't divide the wolves up from a pack of 3 to go join other things with differing wargear? Now I'm just confused again. anyone mind explaining to me exaclty how this works? I think Valerian missed the 6 other WG above the biker WG, and was mistaking the ones with bikes as their own squad of two (which would be illegal as you need a minium, if that was the case). They'd of course be purchased and farmed out with the other WG in the list, so you're fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG. Valerian Ok wait, so you can't divide the wolves up from a pack of 3 to go join other things with differing wargear? Now I'm just confused again. anyone mind explaining to me exaclty how this works? I think Valerian missed the 6 other WG above the biker WG, and was mistaking the ones with bikes as their own squad of two (which would be illegal as you need a minium, if that was the case). They'd of course be purchased and farmed out with the other WG in the list, so you're fine. I did miss something, but not this. I didn't notice the two separate WG leaders for the GH and BC packs, so Mort's list was fine. Take one unit of 6 Wolf Guard for the "bodyguard" of the Wolf Lord, then a second unit of 4 Wolf Guard. From the second unit, peel off one to go lead the Hunters, peel off one to lead the Claws, which leaves 2 in the unit that can now be given Bikes. The Rune Priest on Bike can then join the unit of two Wolf Guard on bikes. Problem solved. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Grius Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 To the original poster, If any wolves think they have it bad, come on over to the Templars and play a couple sample games. Then play a few games of "templars" using the new SW dex. You'll find that your codex can do everything ours does better, cheaper. Seriously. Toughen up pup. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Danvers Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 As long as you give me that 'Zeal' ability you have :P. 'What? You shot us?! RAGH!! CHARGE!!!' Well, that would be a bit silly in our army...... I have had great games with a BT player in my local area, we both play assaulty armies and just go for plan out beating the tar out of each other as soon as possible. It's great fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG. Valerian Yup Wispy got it right! And then eventually you too in your second post Val.!! Flintfang- how it works now is that you buy a squad (between 3-10 models) of Wold Guard. From that squad you split off guys to go to whatever squads you wish them to go to. What i did in your list is to buy two squads- 1x 6man and 1x 4man. Since you can tool WG up with whatever wargear you want (pretty much) 2 of the 4man squad got bikes, while the other half got spilt off. So, the remaining squads become the "retinues" of the Lord and the Priest. Also, since you're not keen on named characters (pity since its a legal part of the list :( ) you can save 100 points more and go with a regular Ven Dread - though you will lose that special SW ability to pick who goes first. Hope that helps :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179685-forget-it-im-done/page/2/#findComment-2127593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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