Forget it, I'm done

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG.

 

Valerian

 

 

Yup Wispy got it right! And then eventually you too in your second post Val.!!

 

 

Flintfang- how it works now is that you buy a squad (between 3-10 models) of Wold Guard.

From that squad you split off guys to go to whatever squads you wish them to go to.

 

What i did in your list is to buy two squads- 1x 6man and 1x 4man.

 

 

Since you can tool WG up with whatever wargear you want (pretty much) 2 of the 4man squad got bikes, while the other half got spilt off.

So, the remaining squads become the "retinues" of the Lord and the Priest.

 

 

Also, since you're not keen on named characters (pity since its a legal part of the list :( ) you can save 100 points more and go with a regular Ven Dread - though you will lose that special SW ability to pick who goes first.

 

Hope that helps :devil:

 

It helps alot actually, The way I understood it I would have been taking a slot for any pack of WG I wanted regardless of size. If I had known that you could still split them off like before then I probaly would not have taken the whole idea of it so hard.

 

Of course if I hadn't been getting off of a 12 hour game that I DMed with four hours of sleep while wondering how I was going to buy a $150 text book for a class at the time of posting I might have been in a more rational mind anyways, but the point is that now that someone has clearly explained the rules it seems to be a tweak I can live with.

 

... Still going to play my TDA wolf lord with a frost axe most likely though, if only because it seems dumb not to...

 

well unless maybe I give him runic, we will see.

[KeithGatchalian]

As long as you give me that 'Zeal' ability you have :devil:.

 

'What? You shot us?! RAGH!! CHARGE!!!'

 

Well, that would be a bit silly in our army......

 

I have had great games with a BT player in my local area, we both play assaulty armies and just go for plan out beating the tar out of each other as soon as possible. It's great fun.

 

 

Uh you don't really charge anymore...you move closer but can't consolidate into close combat. Its nice to be able to get closer from being shot at, but sometimes that pulls you into assault range.......

[KeithGatchalian]

I'm a little unclear on one of the complaints....that is...the whole can't take WG as a retinue thing.

 

Under the old codex, if you had just 1 WG in your army, it took up an elite slot. So if you took a WG BG for a WL, 5 WG sargeants anywhere in the army, it still took up 1 elite slot.

 

Under the new codex, yes, you have to pare off models from a WG unit, meaning that it would cost you 2 slots to have a WG BG (full size) and spread the WG love around the army. That leaves 1 slot for scouts or whatever.

 

I'm failing to see how this kills the army.

 

Also...and this is going to be harsh, but I'm going to make 4 points here....

 

1. If you can't afford the game, then say it, don't attack GW and blaming them. I can't afford a corvette, I don't go on car forums attacking GM for making them too expensive.

 

2. How are you getting on the internet if you have no extra money?

 

3. In terms of hobbies, miniature wargaming is one of the cheapest. ONce you buy the figures, you have very little expenditures after that. Having to buy 1 book in 10 years is not that harsh. Having to save up and buy a box or two to tweak your army is not that harsh.

 

4. Going on the internet and whining about not having enough money to change your army because big bad GW was out to get you, and you personally, isn't all that productive. You can curse the darkness, or light a candle.

 

Change happens. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it doesn't.

 

If money is so tight, how are you getting to gaming stores to play games? How are you getting on the internet? I pay 30 some bucks a month for DSL.....I think AOL dial up is free....

[Morticon]

One problem, I believe with Mort's list. The two Wolf Guard with Bikes would have to be 3, as that is the minimum pack size for Wolf Guard. You can split off Wolf Guard to go lead other packs from one unit of WG, but you can't create a new mini-pack of just two WG.

 

Valerian

 

 

Yup Wispy got it right! And then eventually you too in your second post Val.!!

 

 

Flintfang- how it works now is that you buy a squad (between 3-10 models) of Wold Guard.

From that squad you split off guys to go to whatever squads you wish them to go to.

 

What i did in your list is to buy two squads- 1x 6man and 1x 4man.

 

 

Since you can tool WG up with whatever wargear you want (pretty much) 2 of the 4man squad got bikes, while the other half got spilt off.

So, the remaining squads become the "retinues" of the Lord and the Priest.

 

 

Also, since you're not keen on named characters (pity since its a legal part of the list :( ) you can save 100 points more and go with a regular Ven Dread - though you will lose that special SW ability to pick who goes first.

 

Hope that helps :devil:

 

It helps alot actually, The way I understood it I would have been taking a slot for any pack of WG I wanted regardless of size. If I had known that you could still split them off like before then I probaly would not have taken the whole idea of it so hard.

 

Of course if I hadn't been getting off of a 12 hour game that I DMed with four hours of sleep while wondering how I was going to buy a $150 text book for a class at the time of posting I might have been in a more rational mind anyways, but the point is that now that someone has clearly explained the rules it seems to be a tweak I can live with.

 

... Still going to play my TDA wolf lord with a frost axe most likely though, if only because it seems dumb not to...

 

well unless maybe I give him runic, we will see.

 

 

You can go Ruinic Armour with a Belt of Russ - use your Termy model as a "counts as" - Only a 5 points more. That way you get to use your Frost Axe and you can use a pistol! (giving you more attacks)

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

I'm a little unclear on one of the complaints....that is...the whole can't take WG as a retinue thing.

 

Under the old codex, if you had just 1 WG in your army, it took up an elite slot. So if you took a WG BG for a WL, 5 WG sargeants anywhere in the army, it still took up 1 elite slot.

 

Under the new codex, yes, you have to pare off models from a WG unit, meaning that it would cost you 2 slots to have a WG BG (full size) and spread the WG love around the army. That leaves 1 slot for scouts or whatever.

 

I'm failing to see how this kills the army.

 

Also...and this is going to be harsh, but I'm going to make 4 points here....

 

1. If you can't afford the game, then say it, don't attack GW and blaming them. I can't afford a corvette, I don't go on car forums attacking GM for making them too expensive.

 

2. How are you getting on the internet if you have no extra money?

 

3. In terms of hobbies, miniature wargaming is one of the cheapest. ONce you buy the figures, you have very little expenditures after that. Having to buy 1 book in 10 years is not that harsh. Having to save up and buy a box or two to tweak your army is not that harsh.

 

4. Going on the internet and whining about not having enough money to change your army because big bad GW was out to get you, and you personally, isn't all that productive. You can curse the darkness, or light a candle.

 

Change happens. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it doesn't.

 

If money is so tight, how are you getting to gaming stores to play games? How are you getting on the internet? I pay 30 some bucks a month for DSL.....I think AOL dial up is free....

 

Well first the questions

 

1. My complaint with affording it was that, to my understanding I would have to retool the whole army to play still. I can afford buying the book. I can even save up my money and buy a few add-ons now and then, but because I understood it taht the WG were going to have to be purchased in packs at an Elite slot each (yes, from what I had heard before that was how I understood it, so any WG pack regardless of size would take up a slot instead of 1 pack takes up one slot but you can still split them and kit them as you wish). I still get some money from disability checks due to my autism, but most of that goes into helping support my mother while I am living in her house, buying food, and finishing up my degree so I can get a job. If I had to buy WG packs as I THOUGHT I would, then the end result was going to involve more money than I could really afford at the time and more time to playtest and assemble said models than I have right now, which is why I was not going to bother if I had to repurchase half of my army (once the WG go everything else would have to be redone)

 

2. Well as I said still with my mom until the end of this semester, and honestly the internet is more or less vital to my school at this point anyways. Two semesters ago I had to download a student copy of Autodesk onto my laptop which took forever even with the DSL, and many of my assignments and updates are online. Internet is becoming a requirement for schools at this point.

 

3. but as I said before, I was under the impression that I would have to rebuy many of those figures again, which is the expensive part. That combined with a rule change that under my original (incorrect) understanding of the rules I would have had to purchase new units if I wanted to continue, and I simply don't have the funds or the time for that. If I can use most of what i have now that is one thing, but I was upset under the impression that I would have to rebuy most of it.

 

4. Well considering every other hobby game I usually play has taken drastic turns towards design philosophy that I find rather reprehensible (see 4th Ed D&D) and that I myself am trying like hell to write something so I can break into the industry and perhaps make some money it can be kind of soul-crushing when it seems like rules have been written that render much of the army you have unusable. Again part of this is, as I will admit, a mistaken impression I got from what users have told me here and many half-explained facts, which I do not fault them for as people have no way of knowing how such things will be taken. However when compared to the already shoddy history of many GW products, their general inability to write many things properly (I still say they need to hire an actual editor of some sort to ensure that these things are clear, or hire a GOOD editor if they already have one. So many flaws in their writing) and considering the massive backstep that was the 5th Edition SM codex it all just ended up being the straw that broke the camels back.

 

There are alot of other factors to this as well, many I will admit are personal (Such as the decline in actual workmaship in video games over the past decade, but that is neither here nor there) but the bottom line is that a misunderstanding of a ruling that would have made me financially unable to play anymore, and unable to use my play style as it was and adjust it to the new book coupled with waht i view as incopitance by many designers over the past few years all just ended up snowballing.

 

As for getting to the store to play games, I don't. The past few games I have played were at friends houses, when they pick me up, because I can't afford a car either. That was why it ticked me off so much when I thought I would have to rebuy everything to play with the new dex. It just seemed like validating more bad design by paying for it when I don't have the money to spare.

 

But honesty, now that I understand you can still spread out your WG my army list seems fine, I can still use my minis, and I am willing to try a few games with the new dex.

[Arcaren]

Glad to hear you will try it out some more games. I was where you were at for a short time. I know

what it is like to try and get enjoyment out of a hobby that sometimes seems to be going down the pooper.

But as many have mentioned the new rules just require change. Trust me you are at least far better off than

the Thousand Sons. No disrespect but darn I miss "All is Dust" and 2 wounds.

 

But on a positive note buck up at least it sounds like you have a couple things going for you. First of all it sounds

like you got a good group of friends who play the game with you. I have moved an absurd number of times across the U.S.

Do you know how hard it is to find or establish a good gaming group like that? Also you have a lot of models NEVER

EVER SELL THEM unless you really, truly want to quit. Had I never sold my models over these 13 years I would now

have easily over 200 Marines and an assortment of over 15 Chaos and Marine Vehicles.

 

And as for hair pulling aggravation take a break. I did me a lot of good to take a short brake from the hobby. Couple of

weeks and I was right back in having fun. Life has its priorities and sometimes you have to just put the hobby aside for awhile.

 

And as much as some people despises the new counts as rule (trust me I HATED it for a time) it actually brings more fun into the game.

I am fielding and army of Possessed looking marines that will count as Chaos Marines/Beserkers/Plague Marines/Noise Marines/Thousand Sons/

and pretty much anything I want. This works because I am basically gonna combine 7 plastic box sets from Fantasy and 40k to make 20-25

truly badass dudes.

 

I takes awhile to hammer out a new codex. But trust me most tactics are still there they just morphed. And most gaming groups I have met allow an

individual to use an old codex until they get a new one, hell they would probably let you borrow theirs. Anyways I wish you wolves and all others many

a good game in their future. (Whoo Anti-Chaos, Chaos Army for the WIN)

[Ragnar the Red]

Do not let your trials wear on you, brother. There is always help out there. Instead of going off the deep end request information. Be advised GW is only after your money. I've been messing with GW sence 1986. I convert my exsisting marines to what I need to play. Just deal and dont sweat the rest. e-Bay is a great way to build or flesh out an army cheaply.

 

Remember, War within, War without!

[Commander Sasha]

Once you've got the new codex, if you have too little money at the moment for any new models, can you and your friends agree to relax your WYSIWIG rules a little?

As long as you have any models with different loading written down and agreed with your opponent, and that they are individually recognisable, declaring that what looks like a BP/chainsword Sergeant is actually a Plas pist/Fist/Storm shield Captain is not that big a deal, in non-competitive armies, especially if you allude to it every round, to remind your opponent who/what he is. (Sorry, not a Wolf, don't know your wargear names!)

I am sure that if you apologise for the variations and plead short-term poverty, most players will be understanding (would you be friends with ones that wouldn't?!), and may even take sympathy.

 

We all have days when it feels like the world is out to get us, but take a break, minutes or months, then remind yourself of that night when you got through 2 bottles of wine, 3 bags of nachos and utterly minced Dave's Tau! That night was worth putting up with a few minor changes, wasn't it?

 

Speaking as a nightclub lighting engineer and mad inventor, the past few years' Health and Safety legislations have prohibited me from building all the stage effects I used to love, taking a lot of the fun out of it. But when it comes down to it, I still love so many other aspects and benefits of my career, I'm very glad that I didn't jack it all in and start flipping burgers. And all my building skills are now redirected into my marines!

 

All of the replies above, even the harsh ones, are saying the same thing: remember what fun this hobby can bring, and just ride the odd rough bit. Hopefully in a few months' time, when your new list is slaughtering the enemy, you'll look back at this crisis of faith, and be proud of yourself that you weren't a quitter.

 

It will be good practise for married life too! Try the change in Codex from cool sexy fiance to hormone raging pregnant fiend!

[Mr. Danvers]

As long as you give me that 'Zeal' ability you have :).

 

'What? You shot us?! RAGH!! CHARGE!!!'

 

Well, that would be a bit silly in our army......

 

I have had great games with a BT player in my local area, we both play assaulty armies and just go for plan out beating the tar out of each other as soon as possible. It's great fun.

 

 

Uh you don't really charge anymore...you move closer but can't consolidate into close combat. Its nice to be able to get closer from being shot at, but sometimes that pulls you into assault range.......

 

I know it's not a charge move, it just seemed the most fitting battle cry to emphasize what happens when you shoot BTs.

[Grey Mage]

You know brothers I have to admit its a bit grating to see so many people apparently berate me because they like the new dex or they feel I'm 'resistant to change'.

 

I could put up with some change, if I felt it was warrented. I can put up with point cost changes and some things becoming more or less accessable. I have plenty of things that I COULD have put up with. However I don't have models to ajust with. Again I had to semi-starve myself to get a 25 dollar book which I still have yet to purchase. I have very few funds, and while I might be able to rig up a 500 point or 1000 point army with what I have that would still work in the end I would have to wait a LONG time before I could get more and make alot of sacrifices to do so. Maybe if I could find a decent job I wouldn't care, maybe if everything wasn't shot to hell around here I would be fine with blowing the extra money and taking the extra time to make a new list ad-hock, buy the minis and go with it. But you know something? Between this new dex and the lack of funds/time I really just don't care anymore. As far as slots go it seems like I would have to use up all three of them to get wolf guard on everything I normally have them on (7 on WL 2 on RP 3 sargents) leaving me no room for scouts or a Ven. Dred should I want to take it, and also rendering the other 'goodies' in the new dex moot. I might be able to increase the number of WG bikers with my RP but that would be it and honestly it seems like two is a good number for him.

 

Bottom line is though brothers, that I don't like how things are going. I admit compared to the other 5th edition books I have seen this arleady sounds better, but then that is a bit like saying one 4th edition D&D book stands out among the rest. To me they are all pretty much the same, and frankly if I have to adjust for all this crap and end up unable to make a list I like anyways then I am not going to spend a whole 25 bucks on a book. That alone is a LOT of money, never mind how much they want for new minis. If I have to pay all that and then still have to decide between spreading my WG around or having the ability to take other Elite choices then what am I supposed to do?

 

I guess you brothers out there who want to berate me because I don't like that are free to do so, but it simply doesn't seem worth it anymore.

Hey... I understand, its an expensive game and if the playstyle you want isnt there... well, thatll blow. When the US economy got tanked I got laid off, and I never had the money I see some guys blow in a single spending spree.

 

I have just a couple of questions....

1) What is your normal list?

2) Can you take a look at the actual codex, without buying it, before you jump at this decision?

3) Do you use multiple retinues, is that the source of the problem?

4) I know you have a dislike for Special Characters, and I can sympathize, but have you considered using Bjeorn?

5) You said you have issues getting to a store, is there anywhere else you play? *For instance I have a hard time getting to the local gaming day because of work, but I have a small gaming group that meets fairly regularly*.

 

If I know a bit more perhaps I could give some advice. If it doesnt work out... Im sorry. Maybe some other time. But it sucks to lose a long-time and enjoyed hobby almost as much as it does to lose a long time friend.

[BrotherLoki]

One thing to consider is that you mentioned you had a wolf lord in terminator armour with a frost axe and storm bolter. I know you're not a fan of special characters, but this is the exact equipment of Logan Grimnar, who also makes your wolf guard packs Troops, and therefore scoring units. It's perfectly OK to use Logan's rules for Wolf Lord Hrathnar if you so wish. That would take you from 2 scoring units to 4, and also free up elite slots so you can use your extra dreadnought. I don't have the codex so I don't know how this would affect your points values though.

 

I'm pretty sure with some clever list building you can replicate your old army without having to invest in new models (except possibly to get another bike at some point, as I'm not sure if the unit can be 2 - as I said I don't have the codex to check).

 

Also, given that you play mostly with friends, and not in stores or tournaments, if you don't like the new codex, there's nothing stopping you sticking with the old one.

[Rokafort Stonewolf]

To be honest? Whoever hurf durfed the last 3 editions of 40k should be shot. As a wargame system goes it's CRAP. I like the setting, love the Space Wolves, but can barely stand the rules enough to play a few times a year. That said, there's nothing prohibiting the minis from being used with another system, such as Emlia (www.spirit-plumber.com/emlia/), which is a free and flexible ruleset.

[KeithGatchalian]

I am glad to see that you will try and stick it out....I was worried that my WG Termies with stormshields and gear would be goners, but as far as I can tell, almost everything in my army is still usable.

 

 

At the end of the day, its all about having fun with friends. I think people forget that aspect....

[Hrathnar Flintfang]

I have just a couple of questions....

1) What is your normal list?

2) Can you take a look at the actual codex, without buying it, before you jump at this decision?

3) Do you use multiple retinues, is that the source of the problem?

4) I know you have a dislike for Special Characters, and I can sympathize, but have you considered using Bjeorn?

5) You said you have issues getting to a store, is there anywhere else you play? *For instance I have a hard time getting to the local gaming day because of work, but I have a small gaming group that meets fairly regularly*.

 

If I know a bit more perhaps I could give some advice. If it doesnt work out... Im sorry. Maybe some other time. But it sucks to lose a long-time and enjoyed hobby almost as much as it does to lose a long time friend.

 

well since I have this thing for answering numbered questions in order (I don't know why, it is just fun)

 

1. My normal list, and a 'new dex' conversion by Mort are on page two of this thread. I'll be playing iwth it later, but apparenlty I can have most of my old list with even more points.

2. No, its over an hour to the closest game shop and its in the opposite direction from school, normal stores and everything else. I have been making all my judgments/assessments based on what people here who have seen it tell me, and it kept sounding like I was losing alot of the things I wanted. Now though it seems a few of those things I was mistaken on.

3. I do, and I thought I would have to take a slot for each Retinue for each HQ, which upset me to no end. now though it seems like i don't have to, and I can put them with other packs to boot. That was what had me freaked out, but I'm more willing to give it a shot now that I know you can split them and kit them as you like.

4. No special characters. That is my standing rule. I know he would probalby 'help', but that is something I just don't do, ever.

5. I don't play at the store, I play with friends at their houses.

 

The idea of losing a hobby does suck, and hoenstly I may have still played with the old dex or just Apoc. It just seemed like yet again another hobby was adding a new eddition and screwing up everything that made it good. Granted I still don't agree with all of the changes but I will admit it is worlds better than the SM 5th edition. If I can find a way to try the list once or twice, I think I'll get the book if I can still do my thing/build up and change from my old 3rd edition army as a starting point.

[Grey Mage]

And of course, dont forget theres always pirates and Planetstrike.... wich open all sorts of information and options.