thade Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I just got my first box of scouts (I'm excited). The five of them are going to be suited up for CC as it 1. Fits the theme of my army, 2. Suits my playstyle, and 3. when I last posted here regarding CC Scouts, the idea got a thumbs up from basically every forum-runner that I respect. SO I have scouts...but no Storm. I can proxy my single land speeder as a storm to try that out, but I want to try without to make it work. Realistically I feel I have two options. TACTICS 1. Give them a Razorback/Rhino by taking one for my Devestators and embarking the scouts into it with their scout move (or on turn one, if that's not legal). Tada: they have a transport, but everybody knows where they are. I feel this diminishes their potential. 2. Infiltrate and scout move them in, assault something meek and juicy on turn one, optimally popping a transport or nerfing a unit. Watch them die next turn. Or this might turn out in my favor...they might finish off the unit during my opponent's assault phase, allowing them to assault something else. (A man can dream.) 3. Infiltrate them somewhere and confront the harsh reality that 18" from a blindspot may just not enough to expect them to assault anything on turn one. Hope I can keep them alive long enough to do something later. Furthermore, hope that I don't underestimate such a distance giving my opponent 75 points. 4. Just use them to hold an objective somewhere and try to keep them alive; they are a cheap scoring unit, after all. 5. Suck it up and buy a storm. 6. Abandon all hope; buy Scout Bikes. 7. Some other, different option that you might suggest. EQUIPMENTS Power Fist on the serg, possibly meltabombs (but I don't see vehicle popping as their purpose necessarily) 1-2 Shotguns (how many shotguns?) 2-3 Combat Blade/Pistol combos (fill it up with CC). THOUGHTS There are only five of them (until I get the $ for another box) so I feel like "surgical strike" and "patience" are the things I need to think about. I'm not above simply exploiting the fact that they're 75 pts and sitting them on an objective in cover...preferably an objective buried near my table edge. =) I'm not going to lie...I once made the mistake of infiltrating my snipers on my opponent's table edge. In came a transport from cover with a single heavy flamer. Foom. No more snipers. I have NO confidence that these guys can survive. If there is some trick to them surviving that I don't get, I'd love if you'd share it with me here. EDIT: I am currently re-re-rereading greatcrusade08's scout tactica. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain fabian Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Well in my previous battle against Tau with 3 Hammerheads I used my scouts this way: 2x LSS with multi-meltas 2x5 Scouts with CCW, combi-melta and melta bombs. I played first, moved LSSs 24 First turn I moved them another 12 and disembarked the Scouts. I fired at the Hammerheads with the multi-meltas. I fired the combi-meltas (Vulkan was present of course), He only lost 1 during the Shooting phase and during Assault I charged another with meltabombs. I hit without a roll as he hadn't moved and placed 2 meltas and 3 kracks on his rear armor. He simply lost 2 Hammerheads before he even had the chance to move. No 4+ cover everywhere, no nothing. Just wrecks. That was the most efective use of my scouts so far. The problem is we played kill points and these guys cost me 4 as they were destroyed. Another use I can think of is using them with camo cloaks on an obj and going to ground all the time. If they get into combat for some reason you lose the objective but your enemy must spend 1-2 turn to reposition. you can't have everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 2. Infiltrate and scout move them in, assault something meek and juicy on turn one, optimally popping a transport or nerfing a unit. Watch them die next turn. Or this might turn out in my favor...they might finish off the unit during my opponent's assault phase, allowing them to assault something else. (A man can dream.) EQUIPMENTS Power Fist on the serg, possibly meltabombs (but I don't see vehicle popping as their purpose necessarily) 1-2 Shotguns (how many shotguns?) 2-3 Combat Blade/Pistol combos (fill it up with CC). Thats what I'd do, however I think the idea will work better with an 8-10 man squad so you can absorb some losses. You don't need Meltabombs if you have a Power Fists, 3 S8 attacks against AV10 is almost always better then a single Meltabomb. I'd do 3 Shotguns (1 on Sarge) and 2 BP/CCW probably, but it doesn't really matter that much. If you can't assault anything first turn, there is nothing wrong with hiding behind cover and coming in as CC support once the midfield battle has already been engaged. In the end, you're looking at a cheap semi-disposable squad so don't get too hung up on them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorryst your bubble, but they can't do 1st turn assaults. Scout mov has to stay outside 12". So you're 12.0000000001 inches away, move 6, 6 assault range: 0000000001 inches away, no combat. Then you get shot to bits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Sorryst your bubble, but they can't do 1st turn assaults.Scout mov has to stay outside 12". So you're 12.0000000001 inches away, move 6, 6 assault range: 0000000001 inches away, no combat. Then you get shot to bits. Bubble not bursted, but it does change things. Not being able to assault on turn 1 means I will have to be very conservative with their application. I suppose I could make the mathematical argument that "more than 12 inches" means I can asymptotically approach 12 with infinitesimally teeny tiny decimals represented by 12.0000000000...0001, and then issue an argument that "more than 12 inches" as you assert actually = 12 inches, thus. Basically, arbitrarily "more than 12" is indistinguishable from 12 so far as math is concerned. For several proofs based upon this very same argument, the wikipedia article on .999 repeating is very enlightening. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999... Yes, I went there. <_< In all seriousness, is this addressed in the FAQ or the rulebook anywhere, that troops cannot assault during the turn after they have made an assault move? If not, I may actually stick to my math argument...and, of course, whatever the whim of the judges is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jobu Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Well, being a BT player, I don't run the LSS, but I do run LRCs, and if my LRC is 12 point whatever inches away it will move six inches, then deploy it's squad within two inches of the access points and then said squad will most assuredly charge six inches. Easily reaching that squad that was just a tidbit over 12 inches away. Again, I'm not sure on the disembarkation rules for the LSS, but if they're the same as other transports, then that squad that is 12 inches away is definitely in the danger zone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 In all seriousness, is this addressed in the FAQ or the rulebook anywhere, that troops cannot assault during the turn after they have made an assault move? Keep in mind that if you can't get into assault, you can't actually make an assault move (jetbikes, etc aside). And most people will agree that unless your unit has a 12" charge or some other special-ness, the rules are designed to keep you out of assault on turn 1. For your unit of scouts - I'd recommend keeping them in reserve. A small 5-man unit dies very easily to any kind of focused firepower, and if your opponent sees them holding an objective he'll shoot them - if only to force a morale check after 2 casualties. If however you keep them in reserve, you can walk up to your home objective late in the game, prevent your scouts from getting shot, and perhaps surprise your opponent a bit. Alternatively, you could reserve and outflank with them - same benefit in keeping them alive, but allows you to choose to deploy them offensively or defensively, instead of just holding home base. Overall, a small 5-man squad won't hold up very long in CC, even with a PF. Remember, even though you're hitting on 4's vs MEQ (same as tac marines), your MEQ opponent is hitting you on 3's. Makes for lots of dead scouts, quickly. Fill your CC scout squad up to 8-10 men as quickly as you can, if you want your PF to be worth its points before your sarge goes down. Consider keeping your squad super-cheap with no upgrades until you get more than 5 men (if it's only going to be an objective holder/contester). I agree with Minigun about not needing meltabombs if you've got a powerfist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Bubble not bursted, but it does change things. Not being able to assault on turn 1 means I will have to be very conservative with their application. partlly. shriek build . 4x8-10 scout units for hth with vet sgts with fists/Thunder hammers +a big unit of venguard you like so much joined by shriek [they get infiltration +fleet . 12+d6+6" charge range . can deploy 12"+from enemy] . if you get first turn you have a nice chance of getting off a charge with a big part of your army. never use 5 man hth units . smallest you can do is 6 and even then they have to be something like 4th ed harlis/stealers or 5th ed TH/SS terminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I think you are leaving out their best use; Outflank. Okay, so 5 is a really small number of scouts, but try this. For starters if the oppoent knows you have a unit that can outflank he may be more careful about lurking near table edges; restricting his options is good. Secondly they cannot be casually shot until they come in from reserve, meaning that there 'should' be less firepower on them (you did kill things in the meantime right?) and the opponent should have commited at least some of his forces into attacks. Thirdly, you have a 2/3 chance of getting them right where you want them, it may be near an objective or a vunerable unit. Try charging two units of firewarriors for example; with a bit of luck one will not run away, leaving you 'safe' in combat. Tank rear armour is a good one, give them a blast from the boltpistols on the way in! I have detonated a Leman Russ that way. Generally, I run 8 scouts, sergeant with powerfist when I pull this trick, but see what you can achieve with the 5 you have. RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2127804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Add shrike. As jeske has pointed out you can get a vanguard unit into CC on turn one even when their out in the open at 18" away (one day I plan on maybe using this, combine lysander and shrike together...oh thats nasty, infiltrating fleeting 10 man squad of TH/SS terminators with shrike and lysander). If you ain't taking shrike I'm afrain without a transport you may as well call them the comedy act 'You sir have offended me' because not only do scouts now do poorly in shooting (Isn't their guard snipers that shoot better than them?) and in melee your scouts are going to get shisk-kebabed. They do well for the reserves but that doesn't help much since if your opponent has sent his troops to your objectives I doubt 5 scouts will do much unless you left a homeguard on it except from contest (but given that, it may be you just need to contest it in that case huray, your scouts did something). I wish your scouts the best, I currently have low opinions on mine, shotgunners can't hit jack (well thats untrue they did have a glorious turn where they killed 5 out of 7 vanguards with packs and claws by means of shotgun fire) and my snipers would do better throwing their rifles at the enemy. Get a storm when you can and your 5 man squad will be first turn charging those tanks then! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 So I actually just acquired a second box!! And now I can do an 8-10 man scout squad. =) I'm excited. 50/50 Shotguns and CC, use them to outflank, see what they can do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 So I actually just acquired a second box!! And now I can do an 8-10 man scout squad. =) I'm excited. 50/50 Shotguns and CC, use them to outflank, see what they can do. Excellent! Congratulations - you should have fun with them. Most people tend to underestimate scouts, I think. On the other hand, don't expect them to be a super unit. Be careful who you send them up against - unless you're taking on IG, firewarriors, or depleted squads, don't expect them to win without help. Some fast movers or deep strikers can help there. But the tactical flexibility offered by outflank can save your bacon. Example: I'm playing against a Tyranid MC list, with outflanking Broodlord and super-genestealer retinue. They outflank me on my right and eat an attack bike, and get ready to charge my home obejective. Luckily my 10-man CC scout unit (all CC with PF) come in on my turn and get the correct outflank. They pop in right behind the stealers, shoot them (along with everyone else) and tie up the remaining broodlord + 4 stealers. Of course they get slaughtered (sarge whiffs with everything, 8 scouts drop over 2 combats), but they hold and allow my TH/SS termies to get the charge in next turn. Bye bye Mr. Broodlord. Denying the enemy his chance to get to my objective was well worth the sacrifice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 havent used my scouts in a while (new blood angel codex and all :D) but they were the life of the party :) people always underrestimate them. oh they just scouts! oh just a 4+ safe right? this mere fact alone has meant they almost always get the charge as people are more interested in getting power armoured units in combat then measily 4+ save scouts.... fact remains though that h2h scouts always have more (or equal) attacks as a tactical squad, you hit them on 4's and wound on 4's just like tactical squads. you only die faster but thats hardly a drawback when your scout squad obliderates something thats worth 4 times their points. or if they keep a close combat beast away from your home objective or vunerable ranged units like devastators ;) pointwise they are a very good deal. just avoid heavy bolters and heavy flamers :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 So I actually just acquired a second box!! And now I can do an 8-10 man scout squad. =) I'm excited. 50/50 Shotguns and CC, use them to outflank, see what they can do. Perfect. It might take a few games, but I think you'll be surprise with what they can accomplish. Another idea is simply walk them up behind a Land Raider or other armor. It should block them from shooting, or atleast give them a 4+ cover save and they can intercept any fast moving Melta squads or counter-assault units like Drop Podding Dreads or Termicide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemFX Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How about a giant wooden badger? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 How about a giant wooden badger? NO! That's our badger! You can't have it! We already gave you all our fluff, good wargear, and other options! Go back to your giant wooden loyalist rabbits with PoTMS! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 ...Can my Techmarine legally bolster that Rabbit? It was pretty Ruined after that scene. (Pun.) (Sorry.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2128901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 ...Can my Techmarine legally bolster that Rabbit? It was pretty Ruined after that scene. (Pun.) (Sorry.) So confused... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Chaos_Brute Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 ...Can my Techmarine legally bolster that Rabbit? It was pretty Ruined after that scene. (Pun.) (Sorry.) No, he's fleeing ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martellus Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 +++Quick hint: It's grail shaped.... Martellus+++ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 ...Can my Techmarine legally bolster that Rabbit? It was pretty Ruined after that scene. (Pun.) (Sorry.) No, he's fleeing ;) I lol'd. Because it's true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 There are a few dufferent uses for scouts and every person has thier own personal favourite tactic. Personally i think you need to forget Shrike even though he has been recomended a couple of times.. what if you dont get first turn (50% of games), then your not going to make the best of your army that has been tailored to work with infiltrate/scout move. ROV had it right with outflank, this is how ive been using my own squads and they can be very effective! The good thing is they have a 12" range from the table edges and can charge when they arrive usually meaning they dont get shot up before they assault. CCW scouts have the same number of attacks as assault marines, and barring the lower WS and save are almost as good. a 10 man squad works best, and with a power fist, although i wouldnt put a fist in if taking less than a full squad, as scouts are more delicate. A shotgun is the best companion for a power fist, since a pistol doesnt give you the +1A you may aswell get two shots. 50/50 shotties is the best all rounder unit, as they maximise pre assault shotting for better success vs equal or higher intiative opponents. I myself put two shotties in my units, these are usually the first casulties i take off in assaults as ccw scouts have more attacks in every consecutive turn. In a game vs BnC's Cadarn at the ultra meet 2, i had a ten man unit outflank and hit a full tac squad with my scout squad with combi-flamer/power fist sergeant. They killed eight tac marines in one turn including his sergeant with wound allocation misfortune (on his part). They are seriously underestimated as a unit, and are probably my best single unit (discounting LSS teams). Gc08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 +++Quick hint: It's grail shaped.... Martellus+++ Ahhh thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 Thanks for weighing in, gc08. Yea, I forsee myself outflanking a lot with these guys. I was considering only building and 8 or 9 man squad...in the interest of spare parts (I'd like to throw a scout heavy bolter in my sniper team once in a while, I think). Barring that, several shotguns and all CC in my opinion. I'm excited to use them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2129666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
teeef Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Sorryst your bubble, but they can't do 1st turn assaults.Scout mov has to stay outside 12". So you're 12.0000000001 inches away, move 6, 6 assault range: 0000000001 inches away, no combat. Then you get shot to bits. The scout move with the Storm is the 24 inch move. The 12 inch move is during Turn 1. So you do not have to be 12 inches away. It is a fast vehicle so you can fire the Storm's Multi-melta. The Storm is open topped so you can move right up to the vehicle (normal restrictions apply) disembark and fire and then you can assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/179750-cc-scounts-wo-a-transporthow-do-i-make-it-work/#findComment-2133012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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