How do the Wolf Guard measure up?

[Brother Grius]

Lots of people have been talking about how the Logan Grimnar list will be the new deathwing, and I wanted to take a look at a Wolf Guard list that isn't all terminators. First if you consider that you don't have to deck out each and every model with outrageous wargear, then you have a very flexible squad base that isn't too expensive!

 

10 Wolf Guard @ 285

1 PF & Storm Bolter

1 Paired Wolf Claws

1 Combi-Plasma

1 Combi-Melta

Rhino

 

This is a good example of how you can have a good balanced squad without spending 400 points on it or more! I know not everyone may think this squad is ideal, but it is an example. What I really wanted to get at is making a comparison of Wolf Guard to other types of Marines that have similar points costs.

 

Vs. Space Marine Sternguard

Well, the Wolf Guard look like they have just about the same options as Sternguard for everything except the heaviest of heavy weapons. This isn't a big drawback considering the appeal of the Sternguard lies in their special issue ammunition! Ouch, AP 3 hurts! There seems to be nothing the Wolf Guard can do to get AP 3 rapid fire more than one turn per game, but the Sternguard have the Gets Hot! rule applied, and that's no different that combi-plasmas! Coming in 7 points cheaper and being just as tough, I gotta hand it to the Wolf Guard, since they can take Combi-plasmas and have points to spare.

 

Vs. Space Marine Vanguard

This is a very similar case to the Sternguard, but the Vanguard are cheaper per model. Coming in only 2 points more than the Wolf Guard. They have nearly the same options for close combat weapons, save for the Frost Blade. I think that their Sergeant getting a Relic Blade makes up for that a little. They get jump packs for half the cost of Wolf Guard however! Good thing we can shoot them out of the sky with our combi-weapons and storm bolters. Tough call here, but I'd have to say it's pretty even.

 

Vs. Black Templar Sword Brethren

It is unfortunate that I must say it looks bad for my favorite elites, the Sword Brethren. They get Furious Charge as an option, but are very limited in their armaments. Sword Brethren must pay for frag and krak grenades and don't get a bolter and bolt pistol together, so they are restricted to shooting OR fighting. Sword Brethren may get combat shields, but ONLY if they've paid 10 points for Terminator Honours. Since the Wolf Guard have more weapons, more options, and are already veterans for less points, I'd say they are clearly better. (I won't even mention what Ragnar can do for them.)

 

Vs. Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad

They aren't much more costly than us, and they have jump packs! Not to mention, they can have 5 special weapons in their unit. With access to plasmaguns and thunderhammers, they are one of the better veteran squads from the older codexes. I feel that while a Wolf Guard unit can take more upgrades than a Blood Angels Veteran Squad, that borders on overdoing it. These guys may not shoot like the Wolf Guard, but they do have their distinct advantages. I think this is another even battle.

 

Vs. Chaos Chosen

These guys can be pretty scary! What else would you expect from traitor heretic scum? They don't fight as well as we do (less attacks), and they have the same cost. I like the sound of that, but what's this about hauling around 5 plasmaguns? Or 4 guys with lightning claws? I'd say their biggest advantage comes from a good selection of weapons and their foul blessings. Whatever Icon they bear, each of the chaos gods makes then something more than any other marine. I'd say we come in pretty close with our Counter Attack and weapon selections. Another even match.

 

Vs. Dark Angels Veterans

They wear dresses, how tough can they be? Really though, I don't have these guys' codex.

 

How do you guys feel the Wolf Guard measure up? I'd say that if you don't go overboard like people used to do with the OLD chaos codex, then we have some very well balanced Veterans. They are as strong as or stronger than any of the other comparable units I can think up. I'm definitely excited about using some Wolf Guard, and although I don't plan on using Logan, I think this helps me get an idea of how I can play to their strengths.

 

Have an ale on me brothers!

[The_Crippster]

Dont worry about the chaos chosen. Pointwise, we can't afford to feasibly give them all lightning claws or an icon other than glory for that matter. Even plasma guns are coming up as too expensive for these guys. It's pretty rare you'll see chosen on the other side of the table when playing against chaos. I'd be much more worried about our cult troop choices. Those guys pack a big punch for their pointcosts.

[Brother Grius]

Dont worry about the chaos chosen. Pointwise, we can't afford to feasibly give them all lightning claws or an icon other than glory for that matter. Even plasma guns are coming up as too expensive for these guys. It's pretty rare you'll see chosen on the other side of the table when playing against chaos. I'd be much more worried about our cult troop choices. Those guys pack a big punch for their pointcosts.

 

This is true, I was looking at each codex's unit that was the closest proximity to Wolf Guard. Most of the troops of Chaos don't have 4 or 5 weapon options per squad. If you guys don't use the chosen though, that's interesting.

[The_Crippster]

The two choices that can take many assault weapons are chosen and havocs. neither see the light of day, except with the 4 plasma havoc squads are not terribly uncommon, however not that great due to the fact that they are not scoring.

 

Chosen are a waste in the current codex.

 

10 Chosen

2 Plasma Guns

Champ W/ Fist

 

250 pts.

 

now, toss an icon in there-

Nurgle- 300 Points. you get t5, however you're now paying a basic 23 pts/model, which is the same as plague marines.

 

however, with the plague marines you're getting the feel no pain and being a scoring unit while going down to I1. With the Icon on chosen, you get Infiltrate, the ability to take 3 more plasma guns, and 1 more initiative. I wouldn't trade feel no pain for infiltration (suicide on a 300pt+ unit) and 3 more plasma guns (+45 pts).

 

Also note that plague marines can take 2 assault weapons regardless of squad size.

 

 

The Icon of Khorne brings similar results-

10 Chosen

Champ with Power fist

Icon of Khorne

-250

 

10 Berzerkers

Champ with Power Fist

250

 

On the Chosen you have the ability to shoot more than pistols as well as being able to take up to four power fists/swords/lightning claws. Now, all these weapons and infiltration might seem cool, but then again, with 3 attacks per fist on the charge and 4 per close combat/power weapon, you're going to be suiciding the unit due to the likelyhood of them wiping out the unit they just charged, as well as spending 60-100 points on those weapons.

 

Now on the zerkers you're getting WS 5, furious charge and scoring (i've won a few games by taking a last minute objective on the enemy side with some berzerkers) as well as all the bonuses that the chosen get except the infiltration, shooting, and masses of weapon options.

 

 

So, do you see why chosen don't see the field too much? the other two cult troops have similar comparisons to the zerks and PMs. Also, look at havocs- can field only one less assault weapon, but cost 3 point less per model. You wouldn't be infiltrating those chosen anyways- you'd put them in a rhino, just like any of your other troop choices.

 

I (and quite a few chaos players) dont field elite units at all, unless we're in a friendly/fluff match or we add a termicide unit or three.

 

Oh, and I totally forgot about noise marines, who have up to 21 weapon options per squad.

[Brother Grius]

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I only know three CSM players personally, and one of them is fond of possessed, another like chosen, and the third prefers terminators. If you say that Chaos players don't often take Chosen, I believe you.

 

From what I've read, if I were taking a squad, I would keep it around 5 or 6 strong and outflank with 5 meltaguns. That's it really.

 

Edit: Really though, I was hoping to get some discussion about the new Wolf Guard going. My intention was to compare them to other armies' veterans.

[The_Crippster]

sorry bout that..

 

I only skimmed the codex at my local club, there were too many people at veterans night for me to get a good look :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Vs. Space Marine Sternguard

Well, the Wolf Guard look like they have just about the same options as Sternguard for everything except the heaviest of heavy weapons. This isn't a big drawback considering the appeal of the Sternguard lies in their special issue ammunition! Ouch, AP 3 hurts! There seems to be nothing the Wolf Guard can do to get AP 3 rapid fire more than one turn per game, but the Sternguard have the Gets Hot! rule applied, and that's no different that combi-plasmas! Coming in 7 points cheaper and being just as tough, I gotta hand it to the Wolf Guard, since they can take Combi-plasmas and have points to spare.

 

It's a little disingenuous on your part to simply compare one Sternguard ammo type vs the entire selection of WG shooting options. Sternguard have much greater flexibility than WG with regards to shooting, as they're meant to. Hellfire for pretty much everything (and Hellfire leaves storm bolters and even combi-plasma in the dust), Dragonfire for T3 models in cover, Kraken for killing 4+ save infantry in the open (or having sniping duels with Tau Fire Warriors), Avenger for killing Sisters of Battle (Hellfire is better vs T4 and higher, as the risk/reward payoff isn't worth it).

 

I'd say that Sternguard are a better shooty unit (they have the same access to combi-weapons, they have better basic firepower thanks to their special ammo, and their special/heavy weapon options are greater), but WG are more durable (as they can take Terminator armour) and better in close-combat (because they have similiar options to Vanguard). So, probably a tie.

 

Vs. Space Marine Vanguard

This is a very similar case to the Sternguard, but the Vanguard are cheaper per model. Coming in only 2 points more than the Wolf Guard. They have nearly the same options for close combat weapons, save for the Frost Blade. I think that their Sergeant getting a Relic Blade makes up for that a little. They get jump packs for half the cost of Wolf Guard however! Good thing we can shoot them out of the sky with our combi-weapons and storm bolters. Tough call here, but I'd have to say it's pretty even.

 

No, here WG are clearly superior. WG are cheaper, their close-combat weapon options are well-priced, and they can take shooty options and Terminator armour as well. Vanguard are overpriced, their close-combat weapon options are overpriced, and they are a one-trick pony (assuming you actually buy them jump packs). Their disappearance from anything except display armies in GW stores attests to the uselessness they display in real games (and the fact that stormhammer Terminators and even Honor Guard are better).

 

Vs. Black Templar Sword Brethren

It is unfortunate that I must say it looks bad for my favorite elites, the Sword Brethren. They get Furious Charge as an option, but are very limited in their armaments. Sword Brethren must pay for frag and krak grenades and don't get a bolter and bolt pistol together, so they are restricted to shooting OR fighting. Sword Brethren may get combat shields, but ONLY if they've paid 10 points for Terminator Honours. Since the Wolf Guard have more weapons, more options, and are already veterans for less points, I'd say they are clearly better. (I won't even mention what Ragnar can do for them.)

 

Not a fair comparison, as most BT players I know take Assault Terminator squads, not the power-armoured Sword Brethren. If you compare TWG with TSB, you get a better comparison. WG have shooty options, but the BT's can buy 'Furious Charge' for bugger-all, and they get 'Preferred Enemy' from the Emperor's Champion. I'd say WG slightly edge ahead, because they can march up the table shooting then get stuck in killing things later; BT Assault Terminators have to get in combat to work, but when they do they make WG look pathetic (nevermind Wolf Banners re-rolling 1's, re-rolling to hit and wound with S5/I5 power weapons and re-rolling hits for the TH+SS dudes is insane).

Vs. Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squad

They aren't much more costly than us, and they have jump packs! Not to mention, they can have 5 special weapons in their unit. With access to plasmaguns and thunderhammers, they are one of the better veteran squads from the older codexes. I feel that while a Wolf Guard unit can take more upgrades than a Blood Angels Veteran Squad, that borders on overdoing it. These guys may not shoot like the Wolf Guard, but they do have their distinct advantages. I think this is another even battle.

 

I agree, and if you compare them in power-armour, WG are probably a little worse (because in order to play the same game as the VAS, they have to buy jump packs, which the VAS already have). WG however can take Terminator armour and still have many of the same close-combat options (different shooty options though, although you can mix both in the same unit). I'd say even.

 

Vs. Blood Angel Assault Terminators:

 

If you factor in the 'Dante+Corbulo' tag team bonus on them, BA Assault Termies stack up pretty well. They become much like the BT Terminator Assault squads, with 'Furious Charge' and 'Preferred Enemy'. Like with Terminator Sword Brethren though, the BA Terminators have no shooty options, hence WG move ahead on that score. Again, probably a tie.

Vs. Chaos Chosen

These guys can be pretty scary! What else would you expect from traitor heretic scum? They don't fight as well as we do (less attacks), and they have the same cost. I like the sound of that, but what's this about hauling around 5 plasmaguns? Or 4 guys with lightning claws? I'd say their biggest advantage comes from a good selection of weapons and their foul blessings. Whatever Icon they bear, each of the chaos gods makes then something more than any other marine. I'd say we come in pretty close with our Counter Attack and weapon selections. Another even match.

 

Less attacks? Chosen have bolt pistol+ccw just like all CSM, so they'd have the same Attacks on the charge (getting charged is a different story, because WG have 'Counter-Attack').

The biggest draw with Chosen is Infiltrate. Either setting up in a good sniping position with plasma /and or a lascannon, or Outflanking with meltaguns and/or close-combat gear, they provide a wild-card unit for a CSM player that is just as tough as the regular Troops, but much more blinged-up. In that regard, they kind function more in line with Wolf Scouts than WG.

I'd agree it's a tie, simply because the two units do some things on par, but each has different special abilities that make them better than the other (Terminator armour for WG and 'Counter-Attack', Infiltrate/Outflank for Chosen).

 

Vs. Dark Angels Veterans

They wear dresses, how tough can they be? Really though, I don't have these guys' codex.

 

Overpriced for what they do, great as display models though. You'd be better off comparing Deathwing with TWG. In that scenario, WG are clearly better. 'DWA' is a nice ability (especially coming off Ravenwing teleport homers), but in terms of weapon options and unit effectiveness, TWG are much more flexible and cost-effective.

 

 

There is also one other aspect to WG that makes them truly special for the Space Wolves, and that is their ability to attach to different squads in the army. No other Marine army has quite the same ability to spread out his veteran models, especially not CML/AC-armed Terminator dudes. Chaos would love that ability I'm sure, as would Dark Angels and Black Templars.

[Brother Grius]

I'd say that Sternguard are a better shooty unit (they have the same access to combi-weapons, they have better basic firepower thanks to their special ammo, and their special/heavy weapon options are greater), but WG are more durable (as they can take Terminator armour) and better in close-combat (because they have similiar options to Vanguard). So, probably a tie.

That's more or less what I was trying to imply, but I attempted to be brief.

 

No, here WG are clearly superior. WG are cheaper, their close-combat weapon options are well-priced, and they can take shooty options and Terminator armour as well. Vanguard are overpriced, their close-combat weapon options are overpriced, and they are a one-trick pony (assuming you actually buy them jump packs). Their disappearance from anything except display armies in GW stores attests to the uselessness they display in real games (and the fact that stormhammer Terminators and even Honor Guard are better).

I was going more for a bang for your buck style comparison, not a who could beat who. I was just looking at the options of the Vanguard and giving them credit for being able to fly for less than 40 points per model.

 

Vs. Black Templar Sword Brethren

Not a fair comparison, as most BT players I know take Assault Terminator squads, not the power-armoured Sword Brethren. If you compare TWG with TSB, you get a better comparison. WG have shooty options, but the BT's can buy 'Furious Charge' for bugger-all, and they get 'Preferred Enemy' from the Emperor's Champion. I'd say WG slightly edge ahead, because they can march up the table shooting then get stuck in killing things later; BT Assault Terminators have to get in combat to work, but when they do they make WG look pathetic (nevermind Wolf Banners re-rolling 1's, re-rolling to hit and wound with S5/I5 power weapons and re-rolling hits for the TH+SS dudes is insane).

You're right, their Terminators are in fact, amazing.

 

Vs. Blood Angel Assault Terminators:

'Dante+Corbulo'

I was just comparing without dragging over 300 points of HQ in, because Ragnar does amazing things.

 

Vs. Chaos Chosen

Less attacks?

They aren't sporting a veteran's 2 attacks base.

 

Just because I feel the need to quote this.

Dark Angels Veterans wear dresses

 

There is also one other aspect to WG that makes them truly special for the Space Wolves, and that is their ability to attach to different squads in the army. No other Marine army has quite the same ability to spread out his veteran models, especially not CML/AC-armed Terminator dudes. Chaos would love that ability I'm sure, as would Dark Angels and Black Templars.

It would make sense for the Black Templars! They have a master/pupil relationship for all of their trainees. I honestly feel a little cheated by this new book as a former Black Templar player. If you pick just the basic stuff from the Wolves, you have better Templars than the Black Templars. Egh. I won't dwell on this anymore here.

[SamaNagol]

Storm Bolter & Wolf Claw for 38 points is the best load out in the game. It's sick!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

That's more or less what I was trying to imply, but I attempted to be brief.

 

Ah ok, my bad. Just seemed like you were saying 'Avenger is nice, but look at all the cool stuff WG get as well!'.

 

I was going more for a bang for your buck style comparison, not a who could beat who. I was just looking at the options of the Vanguard and giving them credit for being able to fly for less than 40 points per model.

 

Regular Assault Marines can also fly for less than 40pts a model. You really wanna compare what the unit does when tooled up, not just bare bones. And Vanguard skyrocket in cost with even rudimentary upgrades (power weapons etc).

 

I was just comparing without dragging over 300 points of HQ in, because Ragnar does amazing things.

 

Oh yeah, but metagame wise, you'll almost always see that tag team for BA. Certainly, if we allow Ragnar as a consideration, the WG probably come out ahead.

They aren't sporting a veteran's 2 attacks base.

 

Ah true...again, my apologies.

 

It would make sense for the Black Templars! They have a master/pupil relationship for all of their trainees. I honestly feel a little cheated by this new book as a former Black Templar player. If you pick just the basic stuff from the Wolves, you have better Templars than the Black Templars. Egh. I won't dwell on this anymore here.

 

Do a count-as army with your BT stuff! It would fit pretty well I think.

Storm Bolter & Wolf Claw for 38 points is the best load out in the game. It's sick!

 

Not really. I'd prefer a combi-weapon, storm bolters are bleh (army has plenty of S4 shooting anyway).