fluff question: DA vs SW...why?

[thade]

All I've been able to gather on my own is that during some battle the primarchs of each disagreed...vehemently. And now there are regular events where each side chooses a champion and the champions duke it out...to the death? Is this the height of the violence, or do they not shy from throwing their forces at one another? What was the true cause of this? Why hasn't it been resolved over 10k years? (That is a looooong time to hold a grudge.)

 

(Note: I wasn't sure where to post this, but with the surge of SW activity and all the hyper-knowledgable peeps in the SW forum, this seemed to me the proper place.)

[Roguemarine]

It hasn't been resolved because thats the way the past is remember for the two chapters

[Grey Mage]

All I've been able to gather on my own is that during some battle the primarchs of each disagreed...vehemently. And now there are regular events where each side chooses a champion and the champions duke it out...to the death? Is this the height of the violence, or do they not shy from throwing their forces at one another? What was the true cause of this? Why hasn't it been resolved over 10k years? (That is a looooong time to hold a grudge.)

 

(Note: I wasn't sure where to post this, but with the surge of SW activity and all the hyper-knowledgable peeps in the SW forum, this seemed to me the proper place.)

Not to the Death- its actually recorded in the DA as being a ritual, BLOODLESS challenge to determine who will have the honor of leading the fight.

 

But yes, its because our Primarchs were very close siblings, and as any close sibling can attest they had alot of rivalry and petty feuds. This has also been the case with their Legions and at this point weve been throwing spit-wads at each other and ribbing the other for needing help so long that its just how it is.

 

Brotherly love Thade, not death.

[thade]

Brotherly love Thade, not death.

 

I dig it. =) Okay, not so bad then.

[Grey Mage]

No, its not. Alot of people make that mistake with a cursory reading of the fluff though. If you go back to the earliest threads saved before the great B+C crash youll see our forums occaisionally feuded because of this misunderstanding.

 

Thankfully those days are past us. Theres occaisionally some small tension, but enough bonds have been made between the two forums that I havent seen it get out of hand for a couple years.

[thade]

OT: Once Xmas comes along, I will find myself with a mass of unpainted Space Marines. I'm thinking of going Space Wolves, as I'll be having a look at the new codex within the next couple of weeks. It's my goal to understand the in's and outs of them, as I'll prob be making a "Lost Company" (so I can paint it as I please and differentiate it from other Space Wolves at the club).

[Wolf Guard Dan]

they wear dresses. nuff said.

 

In all seriousness, Leman and Lionel were together towards the end of the crusade. They were close but sometimes could not articulate the how they were feeling to each other. Like 13 year old boys they would fight and beat up on each other. There is one particular time they fought and I forget the particular circumstances but here is what i remember. Thhey fought for a few days. Russ realized that it was foolish for them to be fighting and stopped. He began to laugh and walk away. Lion is a jerk and hit Leman Russ from behing knocking him out then ran away like the dress-wearing Smurf-loving ninny he is. Russ was pretty angry when he woke up and though Lion was a wus for hitting him from behind. So that's why they have the ritual battle everytime they meet to defend the imperium together.

I am not sure if they keep track, but I think the SW have won every single bout the last 10k years. I find it hard to believe any dress-wearer would be able to take one of the Sons of Russ out. But I don't have any references for that, you'll just have to take my word for it :P

[Grey Mage]

OT: Once Xmas comes along, I will find myself with a mass of unpainted Space Marines. I'm thinking of going Space Wolves, as I'll be having a look at the new codex within the next couple of weeks. It's my goal to understand the in's and outs of them, as I'll prob be making a "Lost Company" (so I can paint it as I please and differentiate it from other Space Wolves at the club).

 

Heh. Do as you like I suppose, theres already alot of customizability in the SW genre to make several dozen amazingly unique armies. Of course Ive seen some really well done armies based off of C:SW, not the least of wich are the occaisional "Celtic Marines" that pop up, often with alot of WFB Dwarven Knotwork plastered on instead of Wolf Heads. What were you thinkin?

 

Speaking of thinkin:

 

You like to get physical now and again? Enjoying a days labor and smiling because your exhausted?

You enjoy the feel of fur? How about the feel of a juicy peice of meat?

Do you like to get right to the point of things and grab them by the throat?

Do you like to make close bonds, taking comfort in knowing you have close friends?

Have you picked up a book on Norse Mythology for fun in the last year?

 

If you can say yes to most of these your well on your way to figuring out the SWs. Amazingly they are one of those armies that plays best when used in a Fluffy manner. When in doubt hit the enemy up close. When in need bring forth a hero. Use your units together, but know they are strong enough to prevail against long odds. And remember, the battle isnt finished until every last enemy is dead.

 

Annihilation is always a Victory Condition.

[LPetersson]

It's also worth remembering that DA and SW are very different chapters. DA will happily slaughter innocent civilians at a whim whereas SW are well known for standing up for the common man and giving =][= the finger... ;-)

 

But yes, it all started with the primarchs...

 

When I explain the history of the 40k universe to newbies, I always say that 10 legions fell to chaos and 8 stayed loyal ;-)

[Decoy]

Annihilation is always a Victory Condition.

 

Sigg'd for great truth and great justice.

[thade]

Really I'm looking for instant visual differentiation. :P My codex marines are already radically different from all of the other codex armies I've faced. I'll try to do something similar with these guys.

 

For the record, I said yes to all of your questions. Except the Norse Mythology book...unless a day or two digging thru Wikipedia counts.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, Ill give you 6+ hours of wikisearch as almost a book.

 

Welcome to the Fang, Ales just past the Boar on your right, sign in with the Rune Priest thread at the top sticky.

[Hergrmir]

It's also worth remembering that DA and SW are very different chapters. DA will happily slaughter innocent civilians at a whim whereas SW are well known for standing up for the common man and giving =][= the finger... ;-)

 

But yes, it all started with the primarchs...

 

When I explain the history of the 40k universe to newbies, I always say that 10 legions fell to chaos and 8 stayed loyal ;-)

 

Lies! Only HALF the DA turned, I'll have you know. Which half? Well, there's an interesting question.

But it's not accurate anyway. The Alpha Legion are no traitors. :)

[Runepriest2007]

All I've been able to gather on my own is that during some battle the primarchs of each disagreed...vehemently. And now there are regular events where each side chooses a champion and the champions duke it out...to the death? Is this the height of the violence, or do they not shy from throwing their forces at one another? What was the true cause of this? Why hasn't it been resolved over 10k years? (That is a looooong time to hold a grudge.)

 

(Note: I wasn't sure where to post this, but with the surge of SW activity and all the hyper-knowledgable peeps in the SW forum, this seemed to me the proper place.)

Not to the Death- its actually recorded in the DA as being a ritual, BLOODLESS challenge to determine who will have the honor of leading the fight.

 

But yes, its because our Primarchs were very close siblings, and as any close sibling can attest they had alot of rivalry and petty feuds. This has also been the case with their Legions and at this point weve been throwing spit-wads at each other and ribbing the other for needing help so long that its just how it is.

 

Brotherly love Thade, not death.

 

According to the second edition SW codex, the two primarchs were both charged with the destruction of an enemy of the Imperium (exactly who, escapes me right now). A plan had been put in place for a two prong attack, but the DA's changed the battle plan, and many SW lives were lost. This led to Russ confronting Johnson; words were exchanged, and basically, a fight started. The two primarchs fought day and night for 7 days.

 

Russ then stopped, and started laughing at the whole episode. He turned his back for a second, when Johnson struck him from behind, knocking him unconscious. When Russ came to, the DA's were gone from the planet. From that point on, there was the animosity between each legion. Whenever the two legions were on the same field of battle, one champion from each side would fight the other in hand to hand combat. The winner would lead the combined armies.

 

 

 

Granted, this is from the second ed codex for the wolves. I'm not sure if the DA codex has something similar.

 

 

Runepriest

[kil78]

this is how I have heard it

 

Russ and El' jonson were both taking part in a action to try to take a fortress

El' jonson being who he was, planned the whole thing out in great detail.

At what point, the guy in the fortress basically say something about Russ' mother

Russ goes bugnut, and decides to head on assult saidd fortess and make a vow to kill said guy.

El' jonson, pissed off that his planning was ruined, basically ignores Russ and goes with the origional plan.

While Russ is still braking himself on the walls , El'jonson gets inside with his men and caps the guy.

Russ is pissed by this and sucker punches El'jonson

they fight for days

Russ eventually sees how funny this is and stops fighting, at which point El'jonson clocks Russ any way.

 

 

there is more to the story especally what happens after Russ and El'jonson get to earth after the Emperor gets put in the golden throne, but that is the seed of it

[thade]

That stands to reason. Had the guy in the castle made a comment about my mom, I'd be pounding through that wall with my fists too.

 

I think I chose wisely. ;)

[Schertenleib]

Because of this bit of fluff it's my intention to challenge any DA player that I face in tournament or while playing Apoc to either a quick arm or thumb wrestling bout.

[Grey Mage]

Because of this bit of fluff it's my intention to challenge any DA player that I face in tournament or while playing Apoc to either a quick arm or thumb wrestling bout.

Eh, I usually take my vet vs his vet in CC, all equipment and everything... and then see who wins.

 

One guy, at tournaments we do this before deployment, and the losers character starts with a wound.

[Night Runner]

this is how I have heard it

 

Russ and El' jonson were both taking part in a action to try to take a fortress

El' jonson being who he was, planned the whole thing out in great detail.

At what point, the guy in the fortress basically say something about Russ' mother

Russ goes bugnut, and decides to head on assult saidd fortess and make a vow to kill said guy.

El' jonson, pissed off that his planning was ruined, basically ignores Russ and goes with the origional plan.

While Russ is still braking himself on the walls , El'jonson gets inside with his men and caps the guy.

Russ is pissed by this and sucker punches El'jonson

they fight for days

Russ eventually sees how funny this is and stops fighting, at which point El'jonson clocks Russ any way.

 

 

there is more to the story especially what happens after Russ and El'jonson get to earth after the Emperor gets put in the golden throne, but that is the seed of it

 

That's exactly how it went. They fought on several other occasions. The last battle according to some early fluff was after the death of Horus and the Emperor's enthronement. When SW and DA arrived too late to intervene they were both inconsolable. Leman and the Lion were in disagreement on how they should act, in his rage the Lion drew his sword and drove it through Leman's heart (one of then). Russ was hospitalized (for lack of a better word) for several days unconscious by this cowardly act. The Lion, ashamed by what he did, remained at his brother's side until Russ came out of the 'coma'-like state he went in. They made their peace (or as close as they could get to it) and went there separate ways.

 

So as you can see they were not enemies, just great rivals. Over the millennia the chapters rivalry has taken on a different dimension. Although still rivals, they do sometimes go to war. In the fifth SW novel the SW and DA actually fight against and alongside each other, and blood is spilled between them.

[Brother Amarel]

this is how I have heard it

 

Russ and El' jonson were both taking part in a action to try to take a fortress

El' jonson being who he was, planned the whole thing out in great detail.

At what point, the guy in the fortress basically say something about Russ' mother

Russ goes bugnut, and decides to head on assult saidd fortess and make a vow to kill said guy.

El' jonson, pissed off that his planning was ruined, basically ignores Russ and goes with the origional plan.

While Russ is still braking himself on the walls , El'jonson gets inside with his men and caps the guy.

Russ is pissed by this and sucker punches El'jonson

they fight for days

Russ eventually sees how funny this is and stops fighting, at which point El'jonson clocks Russ any way.

 

 

there is more to the story especally what happens after Russ and El'jonson get to earth after the Emperor gets put in the golden throne, but that is the seed of it

Basically this ^^. The guy in the fortress insulted Russ before the battle plan was drawn up and he was impatient, so rather than wait until the morning he attacked at night (part-ruining the plan). Lion clocked the guy out, despite knowing that Russ wanted vengeance, due to his annoyance at Russ kicking off early.

 

They also annoyed each other on the race to get back to the Emperor with Russ continually stopping to kill enemies of the imperium, while Lion wanted to get back as quickly as possible.

 

Wolves vs DA = strong sibling rivalry.

Wolves vs 1K Sons = proper hate.

[whiteraven17708]

The way i remeber it it was Russ was visiting Caliban, you know, checking out all the new-fangled electricity and stuff, El'johnson caught him lifting his leg on one of the chairs so the lion rolled up some newspaper and swatted him on the nose and called him a "bad dog" so now everytime these two armies fight together we have the ritual "nose swat" in rememberance. :)

[karn888]

i do believe the full story is in the current DA codex, kil78 summarized it correctly

[Greyhunter77]

The way i remeber it it was Russ was visiting Caliban, you know, checking out all the new-fangled electricity and stuff, El'johnson caught him lifting his leg on one of the chairs so the lion rolled up some newspaper and swatted him on the nose and called him a "bad dog" so now everytime these two armies fight together we have the ritual "nose swat" in rememberance. :lol:

 

As I recall hearing Russ asked the Lion which side he was on and Johnson hit him cos he didn't know the answer :devil: so now everytime SW & DA meet we have to ask the question again with the same answer. Its kinda a tradition now :D

[Vanger]

Depends on who you ask :devil: Both sides point to the other for fault.

 

The story begins on Dulan (before the Heresy), where SW and DA (or DA and SW depending on the side telling the tale) lay siege to the castel of Tyrant Durath.

 

If you ask the Wolves then they thell that Lion suddenly broke off, without a warning, and stormed forward, leaving the Wolves flank open and thus costing a lot of lives.

Now if you ask the Angles, they tell that Russ flew into rage at the tyrants insult like a rabid dog thus ruining Lion's carefull plan.

 

From here the two stories tell the same. Lion was the one who killed the tyrant Durath, and then the two Primarchs have arguments, and Russ is the one who takes the first punch. They fight for day and night, then Russ stops and begins to laugh, seeing the foolishness of their actions and turning his back on the Lion. The Lion's pride is hurt and he cowardly knocks out Russ from behind (still an impressive feat, because before that only the Emperor himself managed to knock Russ out!), turns and sets off leaving the Wolves behind.

 

This is where the feud started. The two Primarch eventually settling it toa sibling rivalry between them and their Legions, but then the Heresy happens and Russ vanishes with his company in the warp leaving only Björn behind, and the Lion is sleeping in the Rock.

Without the guidance of their primarchs this feud then gets worse, but it is setled by a ritual duel between the champions of each chapter.

 

But remember pups at the Wolftime when Russ comes back, he and the Lion will fight side by side again as it is fortold.

[Night Runner]

The way i remeber it it was Russ was visiting Caliban, you know, checking out all the new-fangled electricity and stuff, El'johnson caught him lifting his leg on one of the chairs so the lion rolled up some newspaper and swatted him on the nose and called him a "bad dog" so now everytime these two armies fight together we have the ritual "nose swat" in rememberance. ;)

 

As I recall hearing Russ asked the Lion which side he was on and Johnson hit him cos he didn't know the answer :D so now everytime SW & DA meet we have to ask the question again with the same answer. Its kinda a tradition now ;)

 

If I recall correctly Jonson did answer, he told Russ to ask Luther, since he's the guy that runs the show! :)