Proper combat-squadding of bikers...

[ShinyRhino]

I've been running a bike-heavy list of late, and really really like it. It fits my playstyle perfectly. Last tournament (1750 points), I ran a list with a bike captain, two mechanized tac squads, two full 8-man biker squads with attack bikes, three Dreads, and a Vindicator. I went undefeated until the final game, which is the best I've ever done.

One thing I'm having trouble with is wrapping my head around when it's best to combat squad, and how to divide my bikes when doing so. The final game was Annihilation, and I got smoked by Orks.

 

I left the two bike squads at full-size, whihc seriously hampered their maneuverability. In hindsight, I have to wonder if combat squadding might have helped my bikers be effective, instead of just being big pie plate targets.

 

My first squad is an 8-man, with two meltaguns, a multimelta attack bike, and a sergeant with power weapon and meltabombs.

My second squad was a sergeant with powerfist and meltabombs, seven bolter bikes, and a heavy bolter bikes. This squad is not optimized, as I don't have the special weapon models built yet. But, for the sake of this thread, let's say there's two plasmagunners in the squad. Yes, I know plasma on bikers is risky, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

My typical maneuver with the melta squad is to put the sergeant with four bolter bikes, and put all the melta (plus one bolter bike) with the attack bike. This gives me a shooty squad who can stall with a power weapon, and an anti-tank unit. Problem is, I rarely get to fire the meltaguns. The 12" range isn't much, and my opponents are savvy enough to make getting within 12" of a transport or tank a surefire way to be charged by something next turn. The sergeant's power weapon isn't much of a deterrent.

last tourney I mixed things up a bit, and put one metlagun with the sergeant, and gave the attack bike combat squad another bolter bike. One extra ablative wound for the attack bike unit, and an anti-tank shot for the sergeant's unit. I figured I could zoom in, try to pop a transport with the meltagun, and use the sergeant's power weapon to roll a few heads from the resulting disembarked troops.

 

The theoretical plasma squad I hope to cut into the sergeant, plasmagunners, and two bolters and then the attack bike and three bolters. The heavy bolter bike and bolters can be dakka from range, while the sergeant/plasma can hunt light armor. Several S7 shots from the plasmaguns, followed up by the possibility of a powerfist charge from the sergeant (plus grenades from everyone else).

 

Does this sound viable? One thing I'm considering is swapping the sergeants' placement. Put the powerfist in melta squad, and put the power weapon in plasma squad. In order to get the meltagun shots off, I need to be within 12". And if I'm going to be within 12", I might as well get within 6" for the charge afterward. And if I failed to kill the target with the melta, I at least have the powerfist as a backup, right? It works in my head, but how about others' opinions?

 

The hardest question for me to answer is whether to combat squad in Annihilation missions, or not. I'd add two KP to my list by doing so, but would gain a lot of freedom of movement. Trying to keep 8 bikers and an attack bike moving on the table in coherency is HARD. You can flat out forget non-turbo cover saves.

I know the answer to this probably lies in what army is across the table from me. The example provided in my blog link above was against a Green Tide force. Vehicle heavy lists would probabyl be smart to combat squad into my anti-tank and dakka units. Two more KP is probably worth the potential of popping a lot of transports, yeah?

 

What factors should I be considering when combat squadding my BIKERS?

[The Emporer's Divine Fists]

I personally do not have the best luck with orks, but my experience has shown me that combat squadding against orks is ineffective. Orks will inevitably get into close combat, and you want as many attacks as you can get.

 

Also as you stated that gives your opponent the ability to get two additional kill points.

 

One thought for Annihilation mission is keep your Tacs in those rhinos in reserve. They are not going to be able to do a whole lot in the first couple of turns for you anyway. This always them to not get shot at.

 

However, as I said before I don't have the best record against orks so take this for what you will.

[Gornall]

Just from a theory standpoint (haven't played a lot of good Horde Ork players), I'd probably go ahead and Combat Squad against Orks, simply because if they get a charge off, it doesn't matter how big the Bike Squad is, it's probably gonna die. You can offset this by setting up units as speedbumps so you can keep half of the squad alive and moving. The only thing I have found that helps my Bike army against Orks is that Ork Boyz don't like to get charged by Bikes... wounding on 6's != fun for them. However, you have to go big or go home in that regard. Hit them with 2 units of Bikes and you're likely to run them down. Hit them with 1 and you probably just gave them a d6 of free movement. :devil:

 

As for how I would section things up in your case, I'd go Sarg, MGx2, and Bolterx2, with the other squad having the MM AB and Boltersx3. This allows your MM AB to operate freely with extra wounds while your Sarg and Melta Gunners can go hunt transports. I'd probably do something similar with the Plasma squad. Even though, if it was me, I'd think about changing up those configs if you plan on Combat Squadding very much. 2 PGs and a MM AB in a Combat Squad make for a nasty anti-TEQ unit. That's just a personal preference though.

[Resv]

In my own games versus Orks I shy away from Combat Squading favoring instead the ability to keep all of that fire power together. A squad of 20-30 Boyz is going to take some serious knocks from a fully Kitted out Bike Squad. For go the Meltas in favor of Flamers if you feel like getting close in. Two Flamer Templates is a hell problem for piled up Orks along with a very good volume of accurate Bolter fire. You can always keep your AB equipped with a MM if you are lacking anti-tank and it might serve well for that extra punch.

 

Combat Squadding might seem like a GREAT idea when it comes to any Horde Force but you really have to consider that you are not actually increasing your fire at all. You don't lose any shooting potential, true, but you are still going to need to bring that fire to bare on your target. You are also putting expensive units in a situation where they can be easily taken in close combat, 5(4) Bikes vs 20-30 Boyz is not a good spot to be in no matter how many you take out via shooting and the first round of assault you are going to lose your bikes.

 

Also, I wholeheartedly HATE the idea of using speed bump units. Especially expensive speed bump units! Instead, options like a Tunderfire Cannon can achieve a similar effect without the loss of killing potential. Those 5 Bikes are not going to offer enough of a tarpit just about anything, even with their higher T.

 

As an alternative let me make a suggestion, Evaluate your Firing Order. I know this is a super basic concept but bare with me. The Heavy support choices you take should always dictate where your Bikes are going to be best used. Bikes are the essential Cleaner unit in Killhammer philosophy so might as well use them as such. Rather than Combat Squading from the get go try turning the tables on them. One of the best tactics I have ever used with Bikes is to soften their approach. Try dropping a plasma cannon shot or 3 on a unit and then have your Bikes shoot AND assault. Put down as much hurt as you can in a single turn rather than giving a little here and there.

 

Just my experience, probably completely different from yours, but there you go!

[ShinyRhino]

Definitely valid points Resv.

I don't use speedbump units, either. All of my men are precious to me, especially since I'm ALWAYS outnumbered.

One of the problems I face is that I just plain don't like Heavy Support choices. MAYBE a DakkaPred or T-Fire Cannon fits my mould, but for the most part I really prefer things that can stick and move. DakkaPreds get a pathetic two shots downrange if they move. I've got my Thunderfire Cannon about 40% done (all parts assembled for painting, but that's about it), so it might see some work someday.

I can't justify using flamers on bikes. I play almost exclusively in tournaments, as my weeknights are consumed with husbandly duties. lol. As such, I simply can't tailor to one enemy list style. Maybe a wider mix of special weapons throughout my bike squas would help? Say, one flamer and one meltagun? Though I'd be afraid I'd lack the concentrated fire to make it worthwhile.

I feel I'm a White Scars player in Ultramarine clothing, so I have to figure out how White Scars play and win against all armies.

 

Maybe the core problem is that Fast Attack forces are inherently weak against the Horde?

[Resv]

I'm right their with you Rhino. I really don't like much out of the Heavy Support section of our Codex. In my list I run a Vindicator, TFC and a standard Land Raider which has been useful but I still don't care for it. My main anti-tank is the Meltas and Multi-Meltas in the bike squads witch I have had a lot of success fielding. The major thing that I find I must recommend though is the inclusion of a Thunderfire Cannon. It is a really useful unit and can act almost like a jack of all trades with all of its ammo options. It also fits incredibly well with a mobile army like what you run even though it is a stationary unit due to its outrageous range.

 

I tend to view Heavy Support as anti-infantry rather than focusing on taking out vehicles. This is where our Codex options tend to shine in my opinion. With super mobile Meltas in the field is there really much of a reason to take a Predator other than to provide an additional target? Their variants can get very pricey and the overall moving output can be matched by Dreadnoughts.

[Allerka]

I have an all-biker army I use, and have used in multiple tournaments this year. Pretty much the only times I DIDN'T use Combat Squads, was for missions like the one 'Ard Boyz scenario where Troops were worth more than one KP each. Otherwise I pretty much always used it, no matter who I was fighting. I only played Orks a couple times, but my only loss was also my first game with the army.

 

For me, I have three full-size biker squads, all with power fists. I honestly have to recommend fists across the board here, as biker Sergeants with power weapons have the exact same number of attacks, so you might as well go for a fist to ensure you can hurt whatever tries to hit you. Two squads have two melta-guns and a multi-melta attack bike, and the third has two flamers and a heavy bolter attack bike. Normally I combat squad the Sergeants with the special weapons, and send the attack bikes off with three regular guys. Melta-bombs are fairly redundant on Sergeants with fists, since most vehicles are rear armor 10 anyway, except for Land Raiders, which should be getting whacked by meltas anyway.

 

I find Combat Squading my units gives me a great deal of flexibility in who I want where, as well as maximizing the effectiveness of where I send my firepower. Yeah, the smaller unit size makes it easier for units to get taken out, but the increased Toughness can help negate that (depending on who I'm facing, as some armies have nothing but high-strengh weapons anyway). If a unit gets charged and I know they can't take it, I can Combat Tactics them out of there, and then either speed away or blaze away with my guns and even counter-charge if I want. The 3D6 fall-back means 95% of the time I'll fall back enough to auto-regroup and keep moving next turn.

 

Granted, this is all coming from a pure biker army, rather than one mixed with regular infantry, so this might not necessarily apply in its entirety. But, overall, the big thing about bikers is that they're fast and (generally) way harder to kill than regular Marines. Remember that, and learn how to use it to your advantage.

[Resv]

Best way to defeat any Bike army is get to the second floor of a building or ruin and enjoy the show. Just putting that out there.

[Grey Mage]

Id say dont switch out the PF and PW... it gives a little versatility to the squads... allowing your Plasma squad to tank hunt larger opponents in CC as an example.

 

What I would do on the other hand is give the PW+CM seargent some meltabombs... just in case.

[ShinyRhino]

Good points, Allerka. Unfortnuately, I kind of HAVE to run a bike list that include mechanized tacticals, because folks in my area have already caught on to the "objective on the third floor" trick. My fault, since I pointed it out to them, lol. Second floor isn't good enough with our terrain sets, because the biker's head can still be within the 3" when you're on the ground.

I may someday replace the poweraxe my sergeant wields with a powerfist, but for now it stays as an axe. The messed up I run into with fists in a small squad is that with wound allocation, I may never get to swing the hamfist due to I1! It's great for assaulting vehicles, but I'm not a fan of it in close combat.

Probably just a playstyle difference, though.

 

All very good ideas, everyone.

[Warp Angel]

Don't combat squad your bikes. Use them as reserves. The tactical squads on the tables are bait placed off center to draw the army up into a formation you can roll around or forcing him to stay static and unable to provide mutual support.

 

There is absolutely NOTHING that your ork opponent can do against a bike squad that comes onto the table at full strength, at a time and place of your choosing, and that can take advantage of the orks piling up. to close with your bait. It also means that you can take advantage of the ork army's relative lack of maneuverability to go straight for his defending units and firebases. The vast majority of Ork effectiveness is in hand to hand, so avoid it by outmaneuvering him and concentrating your firepower where you want it, instead of allowing him to bring his army to bear on you on his terms.

 

Alternately, put your entire unit in reserves and go second, forcing him to mill around aimlessly until you decide what part of his army you want to excise.

 

I say this as an ork player - Marines in reserve suck to play against.

[OIF Knight]

^^ Agree with Warp Angel here...I reserve about 90% of my space marines, regardless of who I play, forcing them to come to me. One unit I reserve is a maxed out bike squad and AB sqd (x3 MM). When it arrives, it delivers the fist of god. I have also been told that reserving that much of my army severely confuses my opponents, as they have no idea how or where to setup- allowing me to choose where and when to fight. Same goes for my x2 Assault squads, shooty termies and assault termies in their LRC Limo.

 

Tried the same approach with my IG last night with considerably less success. I realize this isn't an IG forum, but anyone have ideas on how to properly reserve IG? I think I simply kept too much in reserve (again, about 90%). Just couldn't deliver the firepower I needed to, by turn 2-3 my opponent was all over my deployment zone, and unlike marines, IG just doesn't have the survivability or individual killiness to properly pull off a reserve CC manuever.

[Warp Angel]

^^ Agree with Warp Angel here...I reserve about 90% of my space marines, regardless of who I play, forcing them to come to me. One unit I reserve is a maxed out bike squad and AB sqd (x3 MM). When it arrives, it delivers the fist of god. I have also been told that reserving that much of my army severely confuses my opponents, as they have no idea how or where to setup- allowing me to choose where and when to fight. Same goes for my x2 Assault squads, shooty termies and assault termies in their LRC Limo.

 

Tried the same approach with my IG last night with considerably less success. I realize this isn't an IG forum, but anyone have ideas on how to properly reserve IG? I think I simply kept too much in reserve (again, about 90%). Just couldn't deliver the firepower I needed to, by turn 2-3 my opponent was all over my deployment zone, and unlike marines, IG just doesn't have the survivability or individual killiness to properly pull off a reserve CC manuever.

 

No guard discussion here, but I'll follow up in PM.