wolves vs templars

[cherrboh]

ok, aside from fluff. not too knowledgable on the units and rules of the Templars, but what makes them an assaulty army worthy to face the wolves?

 

is it a bad idea to face them in combat?

[Toasterfree]

templars are fearless in h2h. so getting them there as long as you can keep winning is a good thing as you will force more saves.

 

what makes them brutal is that most of their guys have ccw+bp giving them as many attacks as we have. as well as having preferred enemy allowing them to re-roll and hit in 3s(?)

[clanfield]

how ever the templars are very agresive if they fail a morale test from shooting they have to advance so you can draw them out and butcher them and its hard for them to hold objectives because of this be a cunning wolf youll be fine

[lokeiSHP]

how ever the templars are very agresive if they fail a morale test from shooting they have to advance so you can draw them out and butcher them and its hard for them to hold objectives because of this be a cunning wolf youll be fine

/Agree with above. BT are a stiff fight in CC and will go toe to toe with us fairly well. however, the Wolves cunning overcomes blind rage. Draw them out as you know they are even more likely to be rushing to CC, make them fail some checks to string their army out. Vindicators are made of win.

[Wispy]

Generally you can shoot 'em up better then they can shoot you. Thin 'em out and when they finally get into CC, you win.

 

Grey Hunter Plasma Guns are made of win.

[cherrboh]

so they always have to do a morale check before shooting, or just when the unit theyre targetting is further away?

 

presuming the later, i would therefor want to partially expose an expensive but destructable unit as bait for them to assault, then target this squad?

[Ryzouken]

When shot, a templar unit that loses a model must take an LD test. Success indicates they advance d6" toward the nearest enemy unit.

BT units can often hit 20 models strong, and those Neophytes aren't exactly a slouch in CC. I've had poor results hitting a unit of 18 or so with a blob of 11 Blood Claws and attached WGBL with the last codex. You'll need to trim them down with some shooting on your way in, but be aware that it'll give them free movement.

 

The Warriorborn saga will be quite the boon, I expect, against BT's. Being able to amp your attacks up with every Neophyte you frag should tip things in your favor. Wolf Claws on said Saga bearer might well be a good idea as well. Make sure you support it with some tough as nails troopers though.

 

And kill that darned Emperor's Champ at range!

 

Land Raider Redeemer worked well for me last time I played (accounted for a full squad of 20 and a squad of 10 assault marines)

[Grey Mage]

how ever the templars are very agresive if they fail a morale test from shooting they have to advance so you can draw them out and butcher them and its hard for them to hold objectives because of this be a cunning wolf youll be fine

/Agree with above. BT are a stiff fight in CC and will go toe to toe with us fairly well. however, the Wolves cunning overcomes blind rage. Draw them out as you know they are even more likely to be rushing to CC, make them fail some checks to string their army out. Vindicators are made of win.

Actually because of the wording they can zeal "Up to"the roll in inches, meaning as long as they keep passing their zeal checks they dont have to go anywhere.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

is it a bad idea to face them in combat?

Hehe of course it is :)

 

Templars are very weak at shooting at multiple stacks of threats. The Kill Em All! rule hinders BT shooting at targets other than the closest to that unit. Righteous Zeal forces a squad to move towards the closest squad (if they so choose to move, but that is still being debated even now) but you can take advantage of that in your deployment early by spreading your forces to split the army in a way that is advantageous for you. This way you can somewhat predict how the spread of clump of units will develop across the board, especially with large footslogging armies who are not slow of foot.

 

Heavy mechanized lists are a bit different, but I'm sure you have seen enough of these in 5th to know how to deal with them. Like all boxes, it is what is inside that counts. What you'll find in the LRC for Templars 99% of the time are going to be Assault Terminators with LCs and Accept Any Challenge as the vow. Its like a whole unit of Wolf Claws, in TDA with frags. Bad mojo, and they make expensive units melt. Putting these guys out in the open is a priority, so put them afoot or get them stuck. The BT player will be hurting once these guys are tabled, and without the 5th ed Stormshields they are very very vulnerable to shooting.

[Quillen]

I have fought Black Templars several times and I have crushed them every time.

 

As the guys above said, shoot them to pieces as they come in. Don't close at first cause they are usually an assault force. Pop vehicles and then slaughter the squads walking over. Once you have them weakened you can close in and rapid firing on them or Charge, but we are better taking a charge. I always rapid fire as plasma makes them cry. And now we get to use our dice in the counter charge so no big lose. They get an extra attack, but that is with 3 or 4 more dead guys in the squad.

 

Then if they hit you in melee they are way too weak to do much and you should not have lost much, so you should crush them in the melee.

 

We are the Close Quarters Combat squads. Grey hunters are the best tactical squads around. We have no silly heavy weapon and we can have a fist and some plasma love. Add in a WGPL and we are meaner then in 3rd edition. So Light him up on the way in and then rapid fire it out with him and counter charge him for the win.

[Decoy]

Never had an issue against Templars, even way back in my 3rd Edition Wolves days. They're like the Marine version of Tyranids. A few baddies, lots of small annoyances. Treat them just as you would Tyranids. Shoot, back up, shoot, assault (as the boys here have already stated.)

 

Personally, Templars have never been a match for any version of any Wolf army I've played. Massacres every time, all in close combat. *thumbsup*

[Brother Grius]

Templars are a bit one-trick. Stay away from their Terminator Assault Squads. They have preferred enemy and furious charge.

[Skoll Brandulf]

seeing as how ragnar ripped apart a 10 man templar tac squad on his own, I think the wolves are better as long as you get inside their faces with a frostblade early on.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Well Wolves have always been a successful army at being able to hold ground against CC threats and still deliver moderate shooting, which is probably the best recipe for success against a BT army. If Wolves were fully a CC oriented army like Nids should be or the Black Templars are, I doubt they would do so well. As I see it though, Wolves are the perfect foil for BTs, and when friends play my old SW army against my BTs I am generally not overly stoked.

[Marshal Hadrarius]

It does amuse me to find such disrespect for an army that can be one the hardest assualt armies in the game (notice i used the qualifier one) i myself have faced the new wolves 3 times so far and have beaten them 3 times but that is not to say i wasn't worried by them. I honestly think that the reason i won in at least two games was that some of you players out there are so cocksure of your army being the hardest most badass armies out there! Templars at full strength are more than a match for you in combat don't take them lightly otherwise you will lose.

 

That being said a lot of the advice on how to beat templars has already been posted, shoot them, destroy thier transports and thin thier numbers down then with your excellent assault units and charge and you will beat them. A few things to watch out for....

 

1)The black Templars chaplins can still be made very hard unlike thier codex counterparts

2)Do not count on them righteous zealing off an objective most players consider move that optional ( i'm not one)

3)Most black Templars players worth thier salt will have many crusade squads these act as the assault troops but ARE all scoring units in an objective based game you need to destroy them.

4)stay away from BT Terminators they are nails :lol:

 

Other than that you've all got good advice just don't discount thier combat prowess just because your the codex out there.

 

As for Ragner taking out a crusader sqd big woop, a named character will do that everytime inc the codex ones.

[clanfield]

i agree about named charictors id rather use a vindicator and some blood claws to mop up

and may i say a valid lesson that over confidance and a new dex are a bad mix

[Decoy]

Quite true about overconfidence. Having too much of it, and not knowing your army, results in horrid, horrid losses on any player's part. This is only compounded when you don't understand the enemy army.

 

It does amuse me to find such disrespect for an army that can be one the hardest assualt armies in the game (notice i used the qualifier one)

 

I think the qualifier that's important here is "Can be". :(

 

Templars at full strength are more than a match for you in combat don't take them lightly otherwise you will lose.

 

Granted that they're a match. More than a match? Doubtful. A full army of Wolves versus a full army of Templars will likely see Wolves victorious, based on sheer mathhammering. The benefit that Templars have is an increased range in shooting, which has been made relatively negligible. A Long Fang squad with one turn of HB shooting will drop five Neophytes on average, but that's what Plasma Cannons are for. To counter that, the presence of a significant amount of LRC offsets the anti-infantry firepower of the Fangs with that of massed small arms fire.

 

 

While I do agree that the Templars can be problematic, they're no more hard in close combat than a Tac squad and a Scout squad. Sheer numbers is their advantage. Take that away by meeting a charge with two units intermingled, and their inherent bonus of numbers swiftly dissipates. They have no implicit advantage over us in a straight fight, and in fact, with comparable numbers, we come out the victors by a large margin.

 

Play smart, play safe, and use our 12-24" firing zone effectively. Meet their charges with massed units, and they won't be able to cope.

 

Even with "nails" terminators.

[lunchb0x]

We get to grow beards.

 

They are choir Boys.

[Decoy]

Aye. They die in "Glorious" battle before they even -can- grow beards. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

G'day,

 

A little on me. I love BT but I love SW too, and had Codex SW come out at the start of this year maybe I'd be a SW player. I just started collecting BTs this year after playing with my brother's marines for ages. Why didn't I go the Sons of Russ? - well I didn't like the high price of BC bikes/jump packs and also thought the LF heavy weapons were overpriced..... these things have been subsequently fixed this codex....D'oh! for me! :(

 

After seeing people saying SW are much better than BT I thought I had better share what my investigations uncovered....

 

I thought I would run some numbers which will be dry for some and fun for others. I know in real world gaming we'll be using our brains but for this example it is just a pure 1500pt mass melee between A} Bloodclaws and Initiates and then B} Grey Hunters and Initiates.

 

No PW or PF used, just barebones. No pre-assault boltpistol action (if you look at my conclusion I think any boltpistol shooting will only show up the BCs more, with BS 3). Also no Neophytes, just marine on marine. (the complexity of multi-type units is a pain and I think this is quite a fair demonstration)

 

1500pts buys 100 BC and 88 I (17pts - 16 + 1 for vow)

 

Example A part i)

 

i) BCs charge Is.

 

400 a. 200 hit (4+). 100 wound (4+). 33.3 recurring dead I (Save 3+). 566.6 pts of dead Templar.

 

176 a. 154.88 hit (88% chance for WS 4 to hit WS 3 with rerolls). 77.44 wound (4+). 25.813 dead BC (Save 3+). 387.185 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

SW win. The massed attacks of the BCs overwhelm the Templars. 100/566.6 x 387.185 = 68.33%. SW score 100 percent. BT score 68.33 percent.

 

Example A part ii) Same battle but this time Templars charge.

 

ii) Is charge BCs.

 

264 a. 232.32 hit (88% to hit). 116.16 wound (4+). 38.72 dead BC (Save 3+). 580.8 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

200 a. 100 hit (4+). 50 wound (4+). 16.6 recurring dead I (Save 3+). 283.3 pts of dead Templar.

 

Bt win. A swap of charge bonus puts Templars ahead. 100/580.8 x 283.3 = 48.77%. BT score 100 percent. SW score 48.77 percent.

 

I feel this shows Initiates are 10 percent stronger (half the difference of 20%) than Blood Claws. Mathematically Speaking.

 

 

 

Example B part i) 100 Grey Hunters instead of the young blokes.

 

i) GH charge Is. *This is no offensive bonus for SW but does stop BT getting bonus.

 

300 a. 150 h (4+). 75 w (4+). 25 dead I (Save 3+). 425 pts of dead Templar.

 

176 a. 132 h (75% chance of WS 4 hitting WS 4 with a reroll). 66 w (4+). 22 dead GH (Save 3+). 330 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

SW win. Denying Iniates charge bonus pays off. 100/425 x 330 = 77.65%. SW score 100 percent. BT score 77.65 percent.

 

Example A part ii) Is charge GH.

 

264 a. 198 h (75%). 99 w (4+). 33 dead GH (Save 3+). 495 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

Grey Hunters score the same number of kills again because of true-grit.

 

BT win. Charging pays off. 100/495 x 425 = 85.85%. BT score 100 percent. SW score 85.85 percent.

 

 

 

Grey Hunter average = 425pts

 

Initiate average = 330 + 495 = 825/2 = 412.5 pts.

 

Overall percentage 100/425 x 412.5 = 97.05%. GH score 100 percent. I score 97 percent.

 

I feel this shows Grey Hunters are 3% better than Initiates. Mathematically speaking.

 

 

 

IN CONCLUSION: Templars average 7% better than Space Wolves. Templars are better in Assault. Is 7% that big an advantage over your rival when you pride yourself on being THE cc Space Marines - no. Especially when SW are considered better all-rounders.

 

I do find it interesting that the SW lose ground via their dedicated melee unit and outperform via their balanced and savvy unit....

 

As a Templar player would I love to use a Whirlwind? - yes, a Long fang/ Devastator squad? - yes, a Rune priest/ Psyker? - no, they should be shot! :devil: I think the SWs are an excellent army. Slightly worse in CC but better in other things and I think that gives them a slight overall edge.

 

IMO: If any SW/BT says he creams his opponents BT/SW, I think it is more to do with your good generalship/luck versus his poor generalship/ bad luck, than to do with SW or BT being better than the other. I will even go as far to say the SW should be a sliver better because of being 5th ed. priced.

 

I hope I have been helpful and unbiased.

 

If you see any maths mistakes please tell me. :)

 

Cheers.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I think the essential thing to remember is that both armies are very close to each other in terms of CC ability. The thing you space puppies will have to watch out for are the LRCs. True, plasma melts through Initiates but it can't hurt the AV14 goodness that the BT "Choir Boys" created. (but you gave us a sweet Predator so it's all good)

 

Also, watch out for Holy Orbs of Antioch. They are lethal to MEQs.

[Brother Grius]

G'day,

 

A little on me. I love BT but I love SW too, and had Codex SW come out at the start of this year maybe I'd be a SW player. I just started collecting BTs this year after playing with my brother's marines for ages. Why didn't I go the Sons of Russ? - well I didn't like the high price of BC bikes/jump packs and also thought the LF heavy weapons were overpriced..... these things have been subsequently fixed this codex....D'oh! for me! :P

 

After seeing people saying SW are much better than BT I thought I had better share what my investigations uncovered....

 

I thought I would run some numbers which will be dry for some and fun for others. I know in real world gaming we'll be using our brains but for this example it is just a pure 1500pt mass melee between A} Bloodclaws and Initiates and then B} Grey Hunters and Initiates.

 

No PW or PF used, just barebones. No pre-assault boltpistol action (if you look at my conclusion I think any boltpistol shooting will only show up the BCs more, with BS 3). Also no Neophytes, just marine on marine. (the complexity of multi-type units is a pain and I think this is quite a fair demonstration)

 

1500pts buys 100 BC and 88 I (17pts - 16 + 1 for vow)

 

Example A part i)

 

i) BCs charge Is.

 

400 a. 200 hit (4+). 100 wound (4+). 33.3 recurring dead I (Save 3+). 566.6 pts of dead Templar.

 

176 a. 154.88 hit (88% chance for WS 4 to hit WS 3 with rerolls). 77.44 wound (4+). 25.813 dead BC (Save 3+). 387.185 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

SW win. The massed attacks of the BCs overwhelm the Templars. 100/566.6 x 387.185 = 68.33%. SW score 100 percent. BT score 68.33 percent.

 

Example A part ii) Same battle but this time Templars charge.

 

ii) Is charge BCs.

 

264 a. 232.32 hit (88% to hit). 116.16 wound (4+). 38.72 dead BC (Save 3+). 580.8 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

200 a. 100 hit (4+). 50 wound (4+). 16.6 recurring dead I (Save 3+). 283.3 pts of dead Templar.

 

Bt win. A swap of charge bonus puts Templars ahead. 100/580.8 x 283.3 = 48.77%. BT score 100 percent. SW score 48.77 percent.

 

I feel this shows Initiates are 10 percent stronger (half the difference of 20%) than Blood Claws. Mathematically Speaking.

 

 

 

Example B part i) 100 Grey Hunters instead of the young blokes.

 

i) GH charge Is. *This is no offensive bonus for SW but does stop BT getting bonus.

 

300 a. 150 h (4+). 75 w (4+). 25 dead I (Save 3+). 425 pts of dead Templar.

 

176 a. 132 h (75% chance of WS 4 hitting WS 4 with a reroll). 66 w (4+). 22 dead GH (Save 3+). 330 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

SW win. Denying Iniates charge bonus pays off. 100/425 x 330 = 77.65%. SW score 100 percent. BT score 77.65 percent.

 

Example A part ii) Is charge GH.

 

264 a. 198 h (75%). 99 w (4+). 33 dead GH (Save 3+). 495 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

Grey Hunters score the same number of kills again because of true-grit.

 

BT win. Charging pays off. 100/495 x 425 = 85.85%. BT score 100 percent. SW score 85.85 percent.

 

 

 

Grey Hunter average = 425pts

 

Initiate average = 330 + 495 = 825/2 = 412.5 pts.

 

Overall percentage 100/425 x 412.5 = 97.05%. GH score 100 percent. I score 97 percent.

 

I feel this shows Grey Hunters are 3% better than Initiates. Mathematically speaking.

 

 

 

IN CONCLUSION: Templars average 7% better than Space Wolves. Templars are better in Assault. Is 7% that big an advantage over your rival when you pride yourself on being THE cc Space Marines - no. Especially when SW are considered better all-rounders.

 

I do find it interesting that the SW lose ground via their dedicated melee unit and outperform via their balanced and savvy unit....

 

As a Templar player would I love to use a Whirlwind? - yes, a Long fang/ Devastator squad? - yes, a Rune priest/ Psyker? - no, they should be shot! :P I think the SWs are an excellent army. Slightly worse in CC but better in other things and I think that gives them a slight overall edge.

 

IMO: If any SW/BT says he creams his opponents BT/SW, I think it is more to do with your good generalship/luck versus his poor generalship/ bad luck, than to do with SW or BT being better than the other. I will even go as far to say the SW should be a sliver better because of being 5th ed. priced.

 

I hope I have been helpful and unbiased.

 

If you see any maths mistakes please tell me. <_<

 

Cheers.

Maybe I'm just drunk enough, but this seems silly to me. Power weapons are a big part of combat, as are special rules like Preferred Enemy and Furious charge. Also, how do Initiates come out ahead of Grey Hunters? Without including a vow, GH have Counter Attack and otherwise the same stats. They get just as many power weapons and can have MotW.

 

Personally I feel the Templars really shine when they hit with their Lightning Claw Terminators. These are hands down tougher than any Wolves unit without ICs. I have previously done the math, and 5 TDA Black Templars with LC will inflict 13 power weapon wounds to a marines unit at Initiative 5. That's a dead squad. No attacks back, do not collect $200, just die.

 

Space Wolves are a more well rounded force.

 

:P this was hard to type. Hope it's spelled properly (I even failed my login 3 times, lol.). Have an ale on me.

[kittenofdeath]

G'day,

 

A little on me. I love BT but I love SW too, and had Codex SW come out at the start of this year maybe I'd be a SW player. I just started collecting BTs this year after playing with my brother's marines for ages. Why didn't I go the Sons of Russ? - well I didn't like the high price of BC bikes/jump packs and also thought the LF heavy weapons were overpriced..... these things have been subsequently fixed this codex....D'oh! for me! :P

 

After seeing people saying SW are much better than BT I thought I had better share what my investigations uncovered....

 

I thought I would run some numbers which will be dry for some and fun for others. I know in real world gaming we'll be using our brains but for this example it is just a pure 1500pt mass melee between A} Bloodclaws and Initiates and then B} Grey Hunters and Initiates.

 

No PW or PF used, just barebones. No pre-assault boltpistol action (if you look at my conclusion I think any boltpistol shooting will only show up the BCs more, with BS 3). Also no Neophytes, just marine on marine. (the complexity of multi-type units is a pain and I think this is quite a fair demonstration)

 

1500pts buys 100 BC and 88 I (17pts - 16 + 1 for vow)

 

Example A part i)

 

i) BCs charge Is.

 

400 a. 200 hit (4+). 100 wound (4+). 33.3 recurring dead I (Save 3+). 566.6 pts of dead Templar.

 

176 a. 154.88 hit (88% chance for WS 4 to hit WS 3 with rerolls). 77.44 wound (4+). 25.813 dead BC (Save 3+). 387.185 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

SW win. The massed attacks of the BCs overwhelm the Templars. 100/566.6 x 387.185 = 68.33%. SW score 100 percent. BT score 68.33 percent.

 

Example A part ii) Same battle but this time Templars charge.

 

ii) Is charge BCs.

 

264 a. 232.32 hit (88% to hit). 116.16 wound (4+). 38.72 dead BC (Save 3+). 580.8 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

200 a. 100 hit (4+). 50 wound (4+). 16.6 recurring dead I (Save 3+). 283.3 pts of dead Templar.

 

Bt win. A swap of charge bonus puts Templars ahead. 100/580.8 x 283.3 = 48.77%. BT score 100 percent. SW score 48.77 percent.

 

I feel this shows Initiates are 10 percent stronger (half the difference of 20%) than Blood Claws. Mathematically Speaking.

 

 

 

Example B part i) 100 Grey Hunters instead of the young blokes.

 

i) GH charge Is. *This is no offensive bonus for SW but does stop BT getting bonus.

 

300 a. 150 h (4+). 75 w (4+). 25 dead I (Save 3+). 425 pts of dead Templar.

 

176 a. 132 h (75% chance of WS 4 hitting WS 4 with a reroll). 66 w (4+). 22 dead GH (Save 3+). 330 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

SW win. Denying Iniates charge bonus pays off. 100/425 x 330 = 77.65%. SW score 100 percent. BT score 77.65 percent.

 

Example A part ii) Is charge GH.

 

264 a. 198 h (75%). 99 w (4+). 33 dead GH (Save 3+). 495 pts of dead Space Wolf.

 

Grey Hunters score the same number of kills again because of true-grit.

 

BT win. Charging pays off. 100/495 x 425 = 85.85%. BT score 100 percent. SW score 85.85 percent.

 

 

 

Grey Hunter average = 425pts

 

Initiate average = 330 + 495 = 825/2 = 412.5 pts.

 

Overall percentage 100/425 x 412.5 = 97.05%. GH score 100 percent. I score 97 percent.

 

I feel this shows Grey Hunters are 3% better than Initiates. Mathematically speaking.

 

 

 

IN CONCLUSION: Templars average 7% better than Space Wolves. Templars are better in Assault. Is 7% that big an advantage over your rival when you pride yourself on being THE cc Space Marines - no. Especially when SW are considered better all-rounders.

 

I do find it interesting that the SW lose ground via their dedicated melee unit and outperform via their balanced and savvy unit....

 

As a Templar player would I love to use a Whirlwind? - yes, a Long fang/ Devastator squad? - yes, a Rune priest/ Psyker? - no, they should be shot! :P I think the SWs are an excellent army. Slightly worse in CC but better in other things and I think that gives them a slight overall edge.

 

IMO: If any SW/BT says he creams his opponents BT/SW, I think it is more to do with your good generalship/luck versus his poor generalship/ bad luck, than to do with SW or BT being better than the other. I will even go as far to say the SW should be a sliver better because of being 5th ed. priced.

 

I hope I have been helpful and unbiased.

 

If you see any maths mistakes please tell me. <_<

 

Cheers.

 

when comparing squads, its best to do it on a squad level, not in massive numbers like that

 

heres my numbers with ten man squads

 

BC charge I:

I:20a, 12.6h, 6.3w, 2.05k

BC:40a, 20h, 10w, 3.2k (plus fearless, 0.56 for 3.76 total dead)

 

blood claws win with 3.76 kills and 2.05 dead

 

I charge BC:

I:30a, 20h, 10w, 3.2k

BC:30a, 15h, 7.5w, 2.5k

 

Initiates win with 3.2 kills and 2.5 dead

 

blood claws have more kills in both defense and attack

 

 

GH charge I:

I:20a, 10h, 5w, 1.5k

GH: 30a, 15h, 7.5w, 2.5k (plus fearless, 0.75 for 3.25 total dead)

 

grey hunters win with 3.25 kills and 1.5 dead

 

I charge GH:

I:30a, 15h, 7.5w, 2.5k

GH:30a, 15h, 7.5w, 2.5k

 

draw

 

 

as you can see, both BC's and GH's are better at attacking and defending, and are a total of ten points cheeper (thats without any upgrades for either, and not counting any vows, as they're from an IC) not only that, but the space wolves have grenades for free, better special weapon costs and a number of unique options. the templars have better CC weapon costs though, and can have a crusader as a dedicated transport

[Thorgad]

The new bloodclaws are simply horrible, let's not bring them into this :D

 

I think you ought to include pre-CC bolt pistol fire in your calculations. Adding to that, I think it's actually unfair towards the templars to not include their vow. I don't exactly have experience with the Black Templars, but I would imagine that the only vow people are taking is the one giving Preferred Enemy, and I think that oughta be included in the comparisons. Being able to re-roll to-hits in close combat skyrockets the templars capabilities versus pretty much everything.

However, I think that CC-situations between Grey Hunters and Templars will play out very differently, depending on the load-out and tactical choices of the SpaceWolf player, since I would imagine a pack of Grey Hunters to double-tap their bolters and recieve the Templar charge, instead of charging in themselves. Add in the potency of MOTW and the wolf standard, and you may have a different fight on your hands.

[kittenofdeath]

The new bloodclaws are simply horrible, let's not bring them into this :D

 

I think you ought to include pre-CC bolt pistol fire in your calculations. Adding to that, I think it's actually unfair towards the templars to not include their vow. I don't exactly have experience with the Black Templars, but I would imagine that the only vow people are taking is the one giving Preferred Enemy, and I think that oughta be included in the comparisons. Being able to re-roll to-hits in close combat skyrockets the templars capabilities versus pretty much everything.

However, I think that CC-situations between Grey Hunters and Templars will play out very differently, depending on the load-out and tactical choices of the SpaceWolf player, since I would imagine a pack of Grey Hunters to double-tap their bolters and recieve the Templar charge, instead of charging in themselves. Add in the potency of MOTW and the wolf standard, and you may have a different fight on your hands.

 

i agree completely, but thats allot of math to do, and im doing this stuff in my head, but on the surface im going to have to say the space wolves are better, look at the pros and cons

 

GH pros:

ultra-grit

grenades

counter attack

cheep shooty death (plasma pistol and two special weapons)

one special CC weapon

acute senses

wulfen

wolf standard

cheep as chips

GH cons:

no heavy weapons

 

BC pros:

beserk charge

grenades

counter attack

one special CC weapon

cheep shooty death(plasma pistol and two special weapons)

acute senses

cheep as chips

BC cons:

no shooting before charging

low stats

no bolters

 

I pros:

vow

neophites

choice of bolters or pistols and chainswords

quick

crusaders

fearless

cheeper special CC weapons

I cons:

have to take either bolters or pistols and chainswords

fearless

expensive