An idea to change HQ Choices in Codex:CSM

[Wolfbiter]

Hey all,

 

After reading and participating in the Gav Thorpe Chaos Codex thread discussion, the most common issue I've read seems to be that the current codex doesn't give enough variety in the kinds of armies you can build.

 

There's been a huge amount of debate whether separate Legion codices/rules/special characters/etc. should be included to reflect this, each with its supporters and detractors.

 

As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't find the Codex unusuable. I don't like the Dreadnought or Possessed rules, and I'm kind of iffy about icons, but I do like the Cult Troops and Chaos Space Marine troops very much.

 

Here's my lengthy list of ideas. Please let me know what you think.

 

After reading through the current Codex over the past few days, I think more general HQ options are needed. So below are my ideas to revise HQ choices for Chaos to give people more variety and flexibility in their army builds. I would appreciate people's feedback on these ideas, just to see if they seem workable.

 

Also, there are only 3 (Daemon Princes, Lords and Sorcerors) and Daemons and Sorcerors seem to have an unfair advantage over Lords, in that they can do more and are more survivable for better point costs. I feel there needs to be more motivation for people to take Lords vs. Daemon Princes and Sorcerors.

 

Third, I approached this with the idea of improving the Current Codex with the minimal changes possible, to make it simple to change (just in case GW needs ideas, hint hint.) :P

 

Last, I tried to follow the approach of allowing players to mix-and-match HQ choices OR using them to build a specific Legion theme. I know not all like this approach, but it seemed the fairest to players of all preferences. So I tried to err on the side of lower-powered abilities to avoid munchkin/cheese/uber-powered combos as much as possible. My goal was diversity, not overwhelming obvious choices.

 

My proposed revised HQ list:

 

Daemon Prince: Same as now, but limited to 0-1 per army. The idea of having two Daemon Princes in a force seems to me as unreasonable as having two Masters of the Chapter in a Loyalist force...and equally overpowered.

 

Chaos Lord: As current codex, but I would make a change: Improve the Chaos Lord's Invulnerable Save to 4+. This would do several things: It improves the Lord's ability to survive Daemon Weapon misrolls-making Daemon Weapon Lords a more appealing choice while still leaving them with a weakness. It makes the Lord the most "Armor" themed of the three original HQ choices (Daemon Princes have Eternal Warrior, Sorcerors have Psyker powers and Force Weapons.) With this change, Lords are the "Armor Save" HQ choice. You can have a 2+/3+ save with Terminator armor and the Mark of Tzeentch. Or Toughness 5, 2+/4+ with a Terminator Nurgle Lord.

 

Sorceror: Unchanged

 

I'd also add the following new HQ choices:

 

0-1 Dark Apostle: A Dark Apostle is a non-psyker Priest of Chaos, dedicated equally to all Aspects of the Ruinous Powers. His role in an army is to inspire troops with his blasphemous oratory and he can summon and enhance daemons due to his dark pacts with the Ruinous Powers. Most Word Bearer armies are led by Dark Apostles, but they can appear as advisors or war chiefs of other forces as well. (Fluff justification: If you read the description of Serghar Targost in "Galaxy in Flames" leading the Sons of Horus 7th company, he is performing Chaos rituals and is described as being both priest and warleader).

 

Stat line: Below that of Chaos Lord

 

Equipment: Power Armor, Accursed Crozius (see below), bolt pistol, bolter, frag and krak grenades. May exchange armor, bp, bolter and grenades for Terminator armor and Terminator weapon options.

 

Special Abilities:

-Fearless

-Accursed Crozius: Power Weapon blessed by the Dark Gods that adds +1 to strength

-Mark of Chaos Ascendant: Dark Apostles embrace chaos in all its aspects, and do not dedicate themselves to one Power. They may not take Marks or Icons, but gain a 4+ Invulnerable save in either Power or Terminator Armor.

-Dark Pacts: If a Dark Apostle is included in the army, all reserve rolls to summon Daemons add +1 to their result. Units of Lesser Daemons may be given the Rending ability at +3 points per model.

-Demagogue: Any non-fearless unit joined by a Dark Apostle gains the Stubborn ability. This ability is lost if the Dark Apostle leaves the unit.

 

 

0-1 Warsmith: Warsmiths are masters of Dark Technology and the heaviest weaponry of Chaos. Many Iron Warrior armies are led by Warsmiths, but some have also split off to offer their services to other warbands.

 

Stats: Similar to Chaos Lord

Equipment: Artificer Armor (2+ save), Servo Claw (see below), bolter, bolt pistol, close combat weapon, frag/krak grenades. Options: Power weapon, Lightning Claw, Power Fist. May not take Marks of Chaos, Terminator armor, bike or jump pack.

 

Abilities:

Fearless

-Servo-Claw: A servo claw is a mechanical attachment used to breach fortifications and destroy heavy vehicles. A servo claw gives a Warsmith one attack at I1 that doubles his strength and ignores armour saves. Against vehicles, a servo claw rolls an extra d6 for armor penetration. (so s8+2d6, like a chainfist).

-Siege Master: If a Warsmith is included in your army, up to 2 units of Chaos Havocs may be given the Tank Hunters USR at +4 points per model. This ability may not be given to vehicles or Obliterators.

 

0-1 Reaver Captain

 

Reaver Captains are officers skilled in operating behind enemy lines and causing terror and disruption to the enemy. Many are drawn from the ranks of pre-Heresy Traitor assault squads, or from the Night Lords and Alpha Legion. They grant an army stealth and disruption abilities.

 

Stats: similar to Warsmith and Dark Apostle, but with improved shooting.

 

Equipment: Bolter, bolt pistol, power armor, power weapon, frag grenades, krak grenades, meltabombs.

 

Options: May lose Infiltrate and Stealth Abilities to take Jump Pack or Bike. May exchange bolt pistol for Plasma Pistol. May exchange bolter for Sniper Rifle. No marks or Icons

 

Abilities:

Stealth, Infiltrate, Fearless

Demoralize Enemy: If a Reaver Captain is included in your army, enemy forces take all break tests for shooting and assault casualties at -1 leadership.

Ambush Tactics: If you take a Reaver Captain in your army, up to 2 units of Chaos Space Marine troops (not cult troops) may be upgraded with one of the following abilities: Stealth for +3 points per model or Infiltrate for +3 points per model.

 

This would give more ability to create builds themed around the four "Undivided" Legions aside from Black Legion: Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Alpha Legion. For the four Cult Legions, I don't have ideas yet, they may need their own codices to truly reflect their flavor.

[incinerator950]

Night Lords and Alpha Legion have different methods of infiltration, one is trying to be a Green Beret, the other is trying to be SAS and kill everything.

 

However, as much as I like the 0-1 limit on the DP, I know alot of people would not like this, it sounds almost as bad as limiting Land Raiders to 0-3 throughout the army regardless if Heavy or used as dedicated Transport.

[Wolfbiter]

Night Lords and Alpha Legion have different methods of infiltration, one is trying to be a Green Beret, the other is trying to be SAS and kill everything.

 

However, as much as I like the 0-1 limit on the DP, I know alot of people would not like this, it sounds almost as bad as limiting Land Raiders to 0-3 throughout the army regardless if Heavy or used as dedicated Transport.

 

Re Night Lords and Alpha Legion: Undestood. My thinking was since many people seem to have different ideas about what makes up a "infiltrator" vs a "terror" army (and argue about it quite vehemently when it comes to the poor ol' Night Lords), to try for a character that gave a player different choices for a "sneaky" army, and let them choose. I thought about throwing in an option for Night Vision, but it seems limited unless you are fighting using the Night Fighting special rules. (Are those still in this edition? I can't remember....)

 

Re Daemon Princes: Again, my thought was unless there's SOME kind of limit on Daemon Princes, there's almost no reason NOT to take two of them over any other character. Going back to my Loyalist analogy, if Space Marines could take two cheap Masters of the Chapter both with Orbital Bombardment, why wouldn't they?

 

Heck, I've started painting a Black Legion force and I WANT very badly to include a Terminator Lord with a Deathscreamer...but I am having a hard time not justifying taking a DP instead!

The only other option I could think of for DPs would be to significantly boost their cost.

[incinerator950]

or the option to give Demonic Rune back to Lords/Sorcs.

[Wolfbiter]

or the option to give Demonic Rune back to Lords/Sorcs.

 

Daemonic Rune was the gift that made the character immune to Instant Death?

 

If so, I would totally support that as an option for Lords. (I'd love to have a Lord in Terminator armor that could rampage around the battlefield with a Daemon Weapon solo without worrying about a retinue.) Perhaps not for Sorcerors, as they already have Psychic Powers and force weapons. (I'm kind of following the Codex Space Marines general structure of trying to give each HQ choice something distinctive. Example: Chapter masters get the bombardment, Captains are cheap, Masters of Forge have 2+ armor and Dreadnought HS choices, etc.)

[incinerator950]

We don't want to be like Loyalists, we want to be Chaos Marines. That said, we want balance and not to be cast aside to make room for another codex or get screwed over by people who won't take enough time to write something out.

 

However, I would like to see Dread HQs that are not crazy either. Also, even with Demonic Rune, your Terminator Lord would probably get shot off before he reached the lines.

 

They couldn't even make a side book to talk about the Legions, and fluff. Not a codex, just something to look at and realize GW can write nice things without using BL to screw it up.

[Wolfbiter]

We don't want to be like Loyalists, we want to be Chaos Marines.

 

But it would be good to bring over some of the themes used in the Loyalist Codex...the ability to build several different types of armies, and HQ choices that are diverse enough that one choice isn't preferred above all others.

 

I've seen people who like their Loyalists to be led by Chaplains, Librarians, Captains, etc. I personally use a Master of the Forge for my Astral Hawks army.

 

What I liked best when I first got Codex: Space Marines was looking through it and saying "Wow! Look at all these options! They all seem great!" At the same time, I couldn't take EVERYTHING I wanted in my army, it would be too expensive points-wise...but I was able to build an army that made me very happy because there were so many good choices available.

 

And I really liked that for example, a generic Master of the Forge unlocked more Dreadnoughts if you wanted a Dread-heavy army, or a Bike Captain unlocked bikes as troops. Didn't even need a special character for that.

 

That is what I'd like to see with a revamped Codex: Chaos Space Marines...all or at least most of the choices presented having a positive appeal, and options to build a playable specialty army, rather than some choices becoming nearly mandatory for all armies(Daemon Princes) while others are almost universally ignored (Dreadnoughts).