x01848m Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Introduction: I believe that every option available in a codex should be made to be worth its points cost, and should have the possibility of serving a useful role. Generally GW strives to achieve this, but sometimes it falls short. There are units in every codex which people rarely ever take unless they do so purely for reasons of fluff or fun, as these units are not competitive within the game system. Generally this lack of competitiveness is due to the fact that a unit's abilities are far too random to be useful, or because it is priced too highly for what it can do. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t play this game just to win, and I do love getting into the fluff and taking on modeling and conversion challenges. My nine strong Ork Deff Skullz Flash Gitz mob, fully converted, with all three shooting upgrades - perhaps the worst competitive choice in the entire 40K system - attests to this. I assembled it just for the sheer fun of the modeling challenge, even if it will never see a table top unless I am playing a ridiculous Apocalypse game where I want to throw wacky things at my opponent. But I would far prefer it if fielding units like this wasn’t purely an exercise in futility. Conversely there are some units or options which are overpowered, perhaps because of an oversight in play testing or a failure to identify a rules loophole or possibility of abuse by “power gamers.” And finally there are one or two things which are missing from a particular codex, which often may even have been present in a previous codex, and which do not seem to warrant omission. My goal in bringing everything into balance is to remove both the automatic dismissal and automatic must have of units and options. I prefer the variety and complexity of having many worthwhile choices. For example, it is just not enjoyable to play against an endless wave of ridiculous CSM Lash armies and Ork Biker Nobz armies. Similarly it is sad to never see Ork Flash Gitz mobz or Possessed Chaos Space Marine Squads show their ugly mugs on the tabletop. I play for competition just as much as I do for the pure fun of it (I play to win while not pissing off my opponents to do so, and I have loads of fun even when I lose), and I would like to see this balance reflected in a codex. So here are my suggestions for how to fix things issues like the ones I mentioned above in the Chaos Space Marine codex to make this happen. Suggested Changes: 1. Lash of Submission Issue: This psychic power is way too powerful, giving you far too big of an edge. Many CSM players routinely build lists around it, and opponents have to build lists specifically to counter it - a good indication that it needs correcting. Suggestion: When you use this power on a unit, all models in the unit must move in the same direction you specify, and must all move the same distance (as rolled on a 2d6). If it is not possible for the model which is closest to the direction of travel to move the full distance rolled (such as running up against impossible terrain or a board edge), then the distance that model moves becomes the movement rate for all of the rest of the models. You cannot move individual models in different directions or different distances. Increase cost of power to 40 pts. Notes: This change prevents you from grouping models together to drop ridiculous template madness on, and prevents you from having too much control, such as choosing the exact distance and direction (move up to distance rolled in the current rules) each model moves. This change would correctly represent a unit getting confused and wandering off course, while not allowing you to move every single individual model to your greatest advantage. It also avoids the cardinal sin of touching your opponent’s models, which people usually do when they want to take maximum advantage of the power – instead you just have your opponent move the unit a set distance along a set direction. Plain and simple. Some people might balk at the high cost I am suggesting, but I think this power is incredible even if you tame it down. 2. Chaos Dreadnaughts Issue: Their Fire Frenzy rule, with their potential to turn and fire at your own units, twice, coupled with their potential to go running off at the nearest enemy with no mitigating benefit make them a terrible option (unless you just love big robots or enjoy the wackiness of madness). Suggestion: Change the Fire Frenzy rule to have them not be able to move this turn, and must fire all weapons at the nearest enemy unit, twice. Change the assault madness rule (can’t remember the proper name at the moment and don’t have access to a codex – will edit later) to: must move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy in the movement phase, gain Fleet of Foot for the duration of the turn and must move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy in the shooting phase, and must charge the nearest enemy (if in range) in the assault phase. Notes: It makes no sense to me why Chaos Dreadnaughts would be so crazy as to attack their own units when SM Dreadnaughts are the venerated heroes and veterans of their chapters. Using my suggestions would keep the madness and chaotic unpredictability of their employment intact, while making them a worthwhile choice. They might stand and shoot at the wrong target, even if it is out of range, and at the wrong time, such as when you need them to charge in to help in hth, but at least they are still trying to kill the enemy (especially the Loyalists they hate so much). Likewise if they succumb to their desire to tear the enemy apart, let them get there that much faster. The downsides are still there - they may charge when you would rather they maneuver and shoot (they are forced to fleet, so they cannot shoot), and if they are going to charge something they really shouldn't, it is more likely to happen. And giving them a slight boost in their assault madness is comparable to their double shooting benefit in Fire Frenzy. I think the unpredictability is enough to warrant the current cost and mitigating benefits, but I could consider the idea of increasing the base cost. 3. Chaos Landraiders and Daemonic Possession Issues: Chaos Landraiders retain the weaknesses which have been recently corrected in the new SM codex (carrying capacity too low, vehicle weapons firing rules in conflict with transport role means a lot of points spent on a unit with a lot of wasted potential), which changed their LR option from an overpriced, underperforming unit to a viable one. Suggestions: Increase carrying capacity to 12 models or 6 terminator models. Daemonic Possession upgrade allows one weapon to fire at a different target than the rest and to fire a weapon even if it would not normally be able to do so (such as if the vehicle moved 12"). It still ignores shaken and stunned results and reduces BS as before. Cost of upgrade is increased to 30 pts. These changes for Daemonic Possession would extend to other units taking the upgrade as well. Notes: I lumped these two topics together because I can’t talk about Chaos Landraiders without talking about the Daemonic Possession upgrade. SM still have a big advantage with LR’s because they have three different configurations to choose from. And even though they cannot ignore shaken and stunned results like Chaos can with Daemonic Possession upgrade, they don't suffer from the BS degradation. With these changes the CSM and SM LR’s will be comparable in ability and cost. I think the increased cost of the Daemonic Possession upgrade will also be very appropriate for Defilers and Vindicators, now that the rules for Ordnance Blasts have changed in 5th ed with scatters instead of misses. And maybe people will even consider putting the upgrade on Predators with the ability to split targets. 4. Gift of Chaos Issue: Power is so limited in range as to be just about useless. Suggestion: Increase range of power to 12”. Notes: The Eldar have Mindwar, the Orks have Old Zogwart, the SM have SGT Tellion, the DA have Mindworm, and Witch Hunters have Vindicare Assassins - all are comparable in effect to Gift of Chaos, yet have a much greater range, so I don’t see extending out its range to 12” as overpowering. Much to the contrary, I see this as bringing it short of what it could be, perhaps even 18”, as at 12” it would still be the shortest ranged option out of all the ones I listed above. But the current range is so short as to be useless - when is your opponent going to sit around at that distance without either charging or backing off out of range (since it only works if you are at that distance at the beginning of your turn). Sure, you can still use it while locked in hth combat, so it is not completely useless. Only mostly so - I hate the idea of having to wait until after I have been charged or shot up to use it. 5. Possessed Chaos Space Marines Issue: Too expensive for what they do, and too random to be viable. Only taken for the really cool models, and maybe, just maybe, for a city fight. Suggestion: Give them the following combat power options: 1) Power Weapons, 2) Rending, 3) Furious Charge, and 4) Feel No Pain. Give them the following movement power options: 1) Scout, 2) Infiltrate, 3) Fleet of Foot, and 4) Deep Strike. They roll once on the combat power options table, and once on the movement power table. Increase cost to 30 pts each. Notes: If they each have a special combat power and a special movement power, then they become a viable choice. I have still retained the random nature of their possession, but reduced the random nature enough so that they will always be generally useful. In an effort to ensure they don't get too powerful in my attempt to “fix” them and put them where I think they should be, I have increased their point cost slightly. 6. Chosen Chaos Space Marines Issue: A lot of players are angry that they lost their access to veteran skills in the latest codex, which had previously allowed them to make unique Chosen which fit the fluff of their legions. Suggestion: Chosen get one of the following abilities: 1) Infiltrate, 2) Scout, 3) Furious Charge, 4) Hit and Run, 5) Deep Strike, 6) Stubborn, 7) Fleet of Foot, 8) Tank Hunters, or 9) Stealth. Increase cost to 20 pts each. Notes: Abilities are reflective of the legions: Alpha Legion = Infiltrate (masters of deception and subterfuge), Night Lords = Hit and Run (use of terror as a weapon), Khorne = Furious Charge (blood for the blood god), Emperor's Children = Fleet of Foot (heightened speed and reflexes), Word Bearers = Scouts (fanatical desire to come to grips with the followers of the false god of the Imperium, and their strategy of working behind the scenes to corrupt populations into worshiping the chaos gods), Black Legion = Stubborn (stalwart leaders who hold together the traitor legions against the Imperium), Thousand Sons = Deep Strike (magic to teleport where needed and to confuse/deceive the enemy), Death Guard = Tank Hunters (experts at attacking in siege warfare, ie. bonus to attacking bastions/fortifications), and Iron Warriors = Stealth (experts at defending in siege warfare, ie., bonus to defending terrain/fortifications). Cost increase is needed to account for access to so many special abilities, and to reflect the fact that Infiltrate and Scout are a whole lot better in 5th Edition (I love infiltrating or outflanking with Chosen - Alpha Legion all the way!). In fact I would say that all nine of the above powers are better in 5th ed than they were in 4th ed. 7. Chaos Havocs Issue: Chaos Havoc Squads with heavy weapons choices are far outshone by every other heavy support option CSM have, and even by standard Chaos Space Marine Squads as well (CSM squads can claim objectives and their heavy weapons are cheaper). Havoc Squads are just not worth it unless you kit them out with all special weapons. Suggestion: Reduce cost of heavy weapons choices for Chaos Havocs to as follows: Heavy Bolters = 5 pts, Autocannons and Missile Launchers = 10 pts, and Lascannons = 25 pts. Notes: I think these reduced heavy weapons costs are fair, and make Chaos Havocs with heavy weapons a balanced choice people will consider taking. Their reduced heavy weapons costs will make them favorably comparable to CSM squads, but CSM squads can still claim objectives, and a Chaos Havoc Squad with heavy weapons is a static force compared to a much more maneuverable CSM squad (where most people seem to take two special weapons anyway). Okay, I don’t mean to confuse the issue by bringing up CSM squad special weapons configurations or a discussion of firepower versus maneuver. We are just talking about heavy weapons here. I guess my real reason for talking about special weapons, though, is that Chaos Havocs and CSM squads pay the same costs for special weapons even though Chaos Havocs can take up to four and CSM can only take up to two, but there don’t seem to be any issues there (most likely because we still come back to the objective claiming issue, which is a big deal in 5th ed), so why not the same deal with heavy weapons? 8. Warsmith Issue: CSM do not have access to a techmarine style HQ like the SM have with the Master of the Forge. This prevents CSM from modeling a good Iron Warriors army. Suggestion: Allow CSM to take a Warsmith as a HQ choice. Use all the same war gear, options, and costs as the SM Master of the Forge (but perhaps offer an alternative to the Conversion Beam to reflect the CSM style). Notes: Seems natural and logical for an Iron Warrior army - if the Iron Hands can take it, then the Iron Warriors should be able to do so, too. Bring on the Warsmiths! I am not sure what to offer as an alternative to the Conversion Beam, but I will just stick with modifications to the codex rather than creating an entirely new weapon. 9. Drop Pods Issue: SM have Drop Pods, but CSM do not. Both had full access to these items according to Fluff, since the Horus Heresy, so why exclude CSM? It seems like an unwarranted omission. Suggestion: Grant access to Drop Pods to CSM. Drop Pods are armed with a combi-bolter. No upgrades available. Cost = 50 pts. Notes: Some might say that Drop Pods would give CSM far more of an advantage then they would SM due to the CSM bolter/bolt pistol/chainsword combo and ability to take two special weapons in a standard squad. To mitigate this keep CSM Drop Pods at 50 pts even though SM Drop Pods have been reduced in cost, and don’t give options for any upgrades. Yes, they have tremendous shock value in their ability to deliver death right into the face of the enemy at a point of your choosing, which is great for such an assault/raid oriented force like CSM. However, at 50 pts I think they are a comparable choice with the Rhino, which is cheaper, can take a second weapon, and can keep them moving or block off LOS throughout the game. And I always strive to offer a comparable/equivalent option. 10. Lesser and Greater Daemons Issue: No individuality to represent the four chaos gods Suggestion: Give Lesser Daemons access to Icons. Give Greater Daemons access to Marks. Notes: Armies themed on Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slanesh should be able to have their summoned Lesser Daemons and Greater Daemons represented appropriately. They will still be far weaker than their counterparts in Chaos Daemon armies, but will accurately represent the strengths and abilities of themed CSM armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Wow, that looks pretty thought out. Possibly a SM counterpart that gives a certain amount of units infiltrate/whatever to represent those Renegade chapters and Legions who specialize more in Shock and Infiltration tactics. What about Demon Princes and then Sorcerers/Lords getting back Demonic Rune, like how Wolfies get Sagas for immunity to instant death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbiter Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 @OP Hmm, this seems to be a common theme today. (See my similar post on this topic...) :D I like some of your ideas: 1) Dreadnoughts in past editions still went crazy, but not to the point where they became a major liability. I'd bring back the idea that they look for an enemy unit to shoot BEFORE spinning and hitting the nearest enemy unit, and I agree with your suggestion to give them Fleet for the Close combat frenzy role. 2) Giving Possessed two options would work much better than the current system. Another alternative I was mulling was giving them one additional basic abillity (say, rending) and then re-doing a new table with mobility and protection options (Feel no Pain, increased armor save, increased invuln save, infiltrate, jump infantry, Fleet.) Something like that? 3) I totally support increasing Chaos Land Raiders to 6 termies/12 regulars. As an alternative to Machine Spirit (which was always pretty confusion, IMHO) what about an options to give Chaos Raiders Lumbering Behemoth like a Leman Russ in the new IG codex? It could be made a very expensive upgrade for balance purposes (even 30-40 points) but would make our Land Raiders cool and distinct still from Imperials (since GW seems to have totally rejected standardized equipment between different codices.) :) 4) Chosen: The option of giving Chosen different Veteran Skills is really intriguing, and one I haven't seen before. A simple, neat, idea! 5) Warsmith/Havocs: I posted an idea for Warsmiths in my thread to help boost Havocs, I'd like to hear what you think of it. Overall, some really good suggestions, I think, and in line with what I'd like to see in a revised Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerical Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I would sooner have Lash made 0-1 and 25-30 points. Increasing cost cost to 40 but not restricting it to 0-1 would simply put greater pressure to maximise efficiency of the rest of the dual-lash list. Also, your solution to movement for the power would still cause all kinds of disputes - now the lash player will be saying 'Hey, they were closer together than that before' etc. At least with how it is now the complaining is just about it being overpowered, not in-game arguments about exact movement distances of each individually affected model. I also think Lash is overpowered but, from our own perspective, I think it gives us a bit more freedom in a list already restricted by bad design. Add too many points to Lash and you will see one HQ build only - the flying Prince with warp time. Yes, Lash is undercosted, but every other power except warp time is grossly overcosted, and warptime is only useful on Princes and possibly Thousand Sons aspiring sorcerers. Note also the psychic power trend in codexes now - Lash feels relatively less dirty with every new codex. On Chaos Land Raiders, I say screw the invention time-line and give us a crusader capacity already, at least for terminators as dedicated transports. I mean, it's not like we have termies with thunderhammers and storm shields to fill it with, or assault cannons and machine spirits etc. Some people talk about how great Chaos gets it with 'cheap' Land Raiders. That's bull****. Every point the loyalists pay extra is completely worth it and I would swap with them in a heart-beat. The problem with 6-max capacity is that it magnifies the inefficiency of the icon system. Icons of Tzeentch and Nurgle are only possibly worth their points when they cover 10 models. See, there's practically no point in creating these suggested fixes because it's the core design philosophy that is messed up. The best thing for Chaos would be a complete overhaul in codex design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 That's true How bout we get our own Land Raider variant that isn't a spikey Loyalist Land Raider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Up the carrying cap on LR, plastic havocs with more weapon varieties & plastic raptors PLEASE!!! Also, the codex entry should list Deep Strike... after all, it's listed in SM codex but seems to have been omitted (my raptors are SM assault squad that I converted w/ CSM torsos, heads & arms) As for the drop pod I usually ask whoever I'm playing with if I can use them (with a higher cost) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronWinds Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 and Iron Warriors = Stealth There is nothing stealth about IWs, Tanks hunters is extremely fluffy for them. Lash: what if it made sense? This is the power the deceiver should have and he is 300pts. It is basically mind control, not seduction. How do I make you run sideways and then all huddle close together by seducing you. How about? Lash of Submission: You seduce your enemy into loving you and wanting you so bad they come running towards you. If the psychic power is passed the enemy unit must move 2d6" towards the psyker. Still effective, but not overpowering. And the owning player moves his own models. I can't stand any rule that has other people moving my models around... especially when they have a bunch of poorly glued unprimed models that they keep dropping. Dreadnoughts: The 3.5 rules. Fire frenzy: Shoot the nearest enemy twice, if they couldn't see any enemies they would shoot the nearest ally, if they couldn't 'see' anything, or nothing was in range, so no turning, it counted as blood rage. Suggestion: Give them the following combat power options: 1) Power Weapons, 2) Rending, 3) Furious Charge, and 4) Feel No Pain. Give them the following movement power options: 1) Scout, 2) Infiltrate, 3) Fleet of Foot, and 4) Deep Strike. They roll once on the combat power options table, and once on the movement power table. Increase cost to 30 pts each. I would keep it to 3 options for combat, and 3 for movement. It is really easy to roll a d3 using 6 sided dice, how you roll a d4 I have no idea. And IMO the biggest thing possessed need, weapon options for their champion. Sure you might roll and get power weapons, but otherwise your squad is kind of up the creek without a paddle. Allow the champion to buy PWs or PFs. This way if they roll furious charge they are still close to being as good as bezerkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 How about more psychic powers available to the TSons/Tzeentchians as well as some form of sorcerer taken anti-psyker wargear. Y'know, stuff that should have been in the codex to begin with. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atheist Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 That's true How bout we get our own Land Raider variant that isn't a spikey Loyalist Land Raider? Well you should be happy with the one we have now , it's nothing like the loyalist ones . It has less capacity and if it moves 1 inch it shoots one of its three weapons , and if you move it 7"+ it shoots none . On the other side the more expensive Loyalist LR , may move 6" and fire two weapons at two different targets and may even move 12"and still use a weapon . Yay for them ! We have either a ( pretty much too expensive ) transport or a good heavy support each round , they have both every round if they choose to ( even if they are shaken or stunned , but the heavu support abilities are quite limited if so ) . So there , be happy . :) I don't mind about antipsyker wargear for the Sons , bring back the autopass psychic tests rule and I'm happy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Up the carrying cap on LR, plastic havocs with more weapon varieties & plastic raptors PLEASE!!! Also, the codex entry should list Deep Strike... after all, it's listed in SM codex but seems to have been omitted (my raptors are SM assault squad that I converted w/ CSM torsos, heads & arms) As for the drop pod I usually ask whoever I'm playing with if I can use them (with a higher cost) You mean Less Land Raiders? We already have 6 available in non-apoc games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 How about more psychic powers available to the TSons/Tzeentchians as well as some form of sorcerer taken anti-psyker wargear. Y'know, stuff that should have been in the codex to begin with. :P This, however as it has already been stated this is core design problem. As long as the 'dexs keep rolling out we will feel underpowered and the only to fix it will be a complete overhaul. Lol, let Phil Kelly take a swing at it, I'm sure he could come up with something really evil. Grim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Up the carrying cap on LR, plastic havocs with more weapon varieties & plastic raptors PLEASE!!! Also, the codex entry should list Deep Strike... after all, it's listed in SM codex but seems to have been omitted (my raptors are SM assault squad that I converted w/ CSM torsos, heads & arms) As for the drop pod I usually ask whoever I'm playing with if I can use them (with a higher cost) You mean Less Land Raiders? We already have 6 available in non-apoc games. No, I mean a larger troop transport capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x01848m Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 I suggested stealth for Iron Warriors not because they are sneaky, which yes the worth stealth implies, but because the stealth ability gives a defensive bonus to a unit in terrain, increasing their cover save. I figured Iron Warriors are reknowned for being nearly impossible to remove from one of their defensive positions or fortifications, so the effects of stealth would well represent this. They are masters of the siege, so I think the effects of stealth or tank hunters would be appropriate. But for the reason above, and because I was limited it to one choice, I gave them stealth. I gave Death Guard tank hunters because they are reknowned for their ability to relentlessly assault a highly fortified position and take it. According to the fluff, they are a tough, mostly infantry force that advances stoically to assault the enemy, no matter what (but hopefully supported by artillery and as they are not fools, they are just absolutely determined to grind down the enemy, and expect to take casualties doing it). That is why Plague Marines, with their higher toughness and FNP, are perfectly adapted for their Deathguard Legion strategy. Out of the nine abilities I offered for Chosen, I figured tank hunters best represented their abilty to attack fortifications (bastions), and was at least the most fluffy out of the nine choices for them. I agree that Lash should make the enemy come closer (and certainly if it is a Slanesh power). As the rules are written now, I actually view it more as a Tzeentch power, who does specialize in confusing and disorienting the enemy with magic. I also like the idea of reducing its range to 18". After more thought and other comments I have received, while fluffy, I don't think CSM should get Drop Pods. The bolter/bolt pistol/chainsword combo and dual special weapons for CSM troops is really powerful with Drop Pods, and things get worse with cult troops (especially Thousand Sons - Nine rapid firing TS bolters and an aspiring sorcerer with wind of chaos would be outrageous!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I figured Iron Warriors are reknowned for being nearly impossible to remove from one of their defensive positions or fortifications, so the effects of stealth would well represent this that is actually the imperial fists trait . IW are the ones who siege/attack stuff. extra +1 on penetration table for bunkers would be more fluffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I figured Iron Warriors are reknowned for being nearly impossible to remove from one of their defensive positions or fortifications, so the effects of stealth would well represent this that is actually the imperial fists trait . IW are the ones who siege/attack stuff. extra +1 on penetration table for bunkers would be more fluffy. Nope it's Iron Warriors as well, they are described as being like a "barbed hook" as even if you manage to break into their defenses, they will just set off their own ammunition supplies, killing themselves, you, and pretty much any other poor sucker that happens to be on the planet in question. In any case, the old siege masters rule was quite fluffy though borderline useless at the time though if it was around now it would be nice for planetstrike. Tank hunters across the board would be overpowered, maybe the ability to give it to a single squad or something. Or have a "master of ordinance" who would give it to any unit within 12'' that would be really fluffy, but that's never going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Wow, that looks pretty thought out. Possibly a SM counterpart that gives a certain amount of units infiltrate/whatever to represent those Renegade chapters and Legions who specialize more in Shock and Infiltration tactics. LOL Alpha Legion, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 That's true How bout we get our own Land Raider variant that isn't a spikey Loyalist Land Raider? Better yet, how about 2 variants, to go along with the spiky loyalist one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satanaka Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 After more thought and other comments I have received, while fluffy, I don't think CSM should get Drop Pods. The bolter/bolt pistol/chainsword combo and dual special weapons for CSM troops is really powerful with Drop Pods, and things get worse with cult troops (especially Thousand Sons - Nine rapid firing TS bolters and an aspiring sorcerer with wind of chaos would be outrageous!). And Pedro Kantor with a 9 man unit of Sternguard coming out of a drop pod isn't worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 thats is a wrong example . it is a special and an elite unit made scoring. GH on the other hand 10 man fist motw 2 melta guns in a pod are a much better example for the :P GW was thinking when they made our dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherLoki Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Some excellent suggestions in the original post. I particularly like the Chosen skills idea. I wouldn't force people to choose legion specific ones, but include a paragraph about how certyain skills better reflect certain legions. Iron Warriors do make use of infiltrate for example (Honsou in Storm of Iron) so you wouldn't want to make it AL only. I would add the following to the list: Relentless (suitable for Death Guard - fits their methodical advance, and lets them rapid fire bolters and assault etc - fits better than tank hunters imho) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgers37 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 If Chaos get a new codex, i will go staight back to them, i had nearly 10,000 points, (i had a reaver titan...) but i think i have more like 5000 now, because i was getting boerd of them ,and tey way i use lash, just doesnt work that well, as i pull units towards me to assault. I think all chaos units should get relentless as well :D because they want to get to the enemy and kill then in close combat, so there should be no unit that has to sit still to shoot.... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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