Non-Heavy Anti Tank Options

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The recent discussion on oblits vs com-preds and autocannon havocs was very informative and useful (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=178477). In light of that, I would like to begin another similar discussion. This thread will be to talk about other chaos anti-tank options that are not from the heavy support section. I am interested in the results of this for reasons beyond just curiosity. I am looking to expand my 1500 pt fluff project to 2k and i need more anti-tank, but all my heavy support slots are full.

 

I do not have experience using all of the options. So to start off, before we get into any numbers, i just want to hear what people think of the following squads. We already know some are better than others, but it could be useful to us fluff players to know HOW much better or worse they are than each other.

 

Termicide - 3 terminators with 3 combi meltas. 105 pts

 

Termicide is probably going to be the best of these squads. Cheap, goes where you want, kills. The only downside is that they are really an easy killpoint. Nevertheless, we don't all want to be using them. I'm making a fluff army, and using my 10,000 year old terminator vets as suicide units makes no sense!

 

Raptors with meltas.

 

5 raptors with 2 meltas is a mere 120 pts. They are also an easy kill point, but they don't run the deepstrike risks that termicide does. They also don't take from our elites choices. 2 Meltas is less of a volly than 3 combi-meltas, but more if you get to shoot again. I have never used these, so i don't know how good they are. Is 5 with 2 meltas the best config? Is it worth taking a sergeant with a combi melta? (can raptors do that?)

 

Chosen with meltas

 

The ability to take 5 meltas in a squad is nice. The delivery mode is either infiltrating (probably suicide) or outflanking in a rhino. 5 chosen with 5 meltas and a rhino is 175 pts, so its up there. But nothing is going to survive a shot from that. Again, never used these.

 

Bikers with meltas

 

Pretty much the same deal as raptors, but with the option to turbo boost allowing for faster engagement. Toughness 5 is better protection, but then less bodies since you'll probably only use 3. I've used 3 bikes with double plasma before with some decent results, but not with meltas.

 

Dreads?

 

Pity mention because they arn't heavy support.

 

 

Anything i'm missing? Any situations where plasma would be more effective for transport busting? Discuss.

[Garou24]

I am a big fan of raptors and terminators. Raptors are quick enough to to cross the field and melta something, or I can deep strike them. I have even given them a cheap icon and rushed them across the field and then deep strike combi melta terminators off their Icon. Gets plenty of melta goodness in the thick of things quickly.

[Atheist]

I'd put my money any day on the termies , if possible I would give them a chainfist too .

 

I know you disagree , but it's a tactical thing actually .

 

If you can force your opponent not to neglect your termicide and actually divert one ( on an unlucky streak two ) unit for shooting , you have achieved less shooting elsewhere . However be carefull not to give an enemy super cc unit an extra massacre! consolidation move , bringing him closer to you . I almost lost an objective once with this silly move .

 

If they live they are still a menace against vehicles ( if they have a chainfist ) .

 

I have actually pulled it off against an opponent that had deployed closely his two predators , yet chose not to move not to lose his six heavy bolter shots against one of my troops .

 

After I deep striked and blasted the one , next round I chainfisted the other to oblivion .

 

4 berzekers survived to capture his objective .

 

Ok bad call from him but you get the picture .

 

The 2+ armor save means that you need either a lot of attacks or enough power weapon attacks .

 

I have been thinking about dropping a terminator lord with a termicide ( someplace appropriate ) to further extend the havoc they could cause in my enemies lines . I don't know if it's worth the risk however . Has anyone ever considered this ? You could even allocate some non instakill wounds on your lord to ensure that the chainfist will survive for a kill .

 

Still on the simple termicide , remember that they have power weapons by default and that even if they are late in the game they can attempt to contest objectives . On the matter of contesting , please remember they do not have grenades . You should be careful who you charge through cover .

 

I like them better than all the other non-heavy support units proposed for tank hunting . While deep strike may seem risky ( and to some extent it is ) it ensures that they have a very good chance to bring down any armored target ( except for monoliths ) . They deep strike , they play . All other units carrying meltas are more expensive ( except if you choose to include a chainfist in the termicide squad ) and can be singled out before they get to use their meltas if the opponent really wants to remove them . I believe that an average number of rapid firing bolters can bring down three turboboosting bikes .

 

In my current list the terminators have given me access to an extra two LR's which is an added bonus , should you happen to play with 3 cheap heavy choices . Although it is kind of a points stretch from then on . Just throwing it out there as a perceived ( by me ) as a bonus .

 

I 'd love to hear more opinions about other units .

 

Great topic !

[minigun762]

Termicide - 3 terminators with 3 combi meltas. 105 pts

 

Termicide is probably going to be the best of these squads. Cheap, goes where you want, kills. The only downside is that they are really an easy killpoint. Nevertheless, we don't all want to be using them. I'm making a fluff army, and using my 10,000 year old terminator vets as suicide units makes no sense!

3 Terminators isn't bad, but I think 4 is the really useful point. Either 4 Combis or 3/1 Heavy Flamer. Its still cheaper then a squad of Obliterators or Defiler but it has a little more oomph to it and is slightly less of a easy killpoint.

Raptors with meltas.

 

5 raptors with 2 meltas is a mere 120 pts. They are also an easy kill point, but they don't run the deepstrike risks that termicide does. They also don't take from our elites choices. 2 Meltas is less of a volly than 3 combi-meltas, but more if you get to shoot again. I have never used these, so i don't know how good they are. Is 5 with 2 meltas the best config? Is it worth taking a sergeant with a combi melta? (can raptors do that?)

I think overall the Raptors is probably one of the best bets. They're more unique, more wounds then the Terminators while still being really cheap. They also don't have to worry about any transport giving away an easy kill point. Hide then behind a Rhino or piece of terrain, hop over and fry a tank. One big bonus of these guys over Terminators is they come with Krak Grenades. 2 Melta backed up by 5 Kraks is probably a better tank killer then 3 Combi-Meltas on anything but Land Raiders.

 

Chosen with meltas

 

The ability to take 5 meltas in a squad is nice. The delivery mode is either infiltrating (probably suicide) or outflanking in a rhino. 5 chosen with 5 meltas and a rhino is 175 pts, so its up there. But nothing is going to survive a shot from that. Again, never used these.

I have a hard time justifying a squad like this really. Every guy lost is costing you 28+ points plus you have the Rhino there for a killpoint. Add in the higher cost and the inability to really rely on Outflanking and you have an unimpressive squad in my eyes. What Chosen do well though, is Plasma. Infiltrating a few Chosen with Plasmaguns will be useful to snipe side armor or knock out that MC flying towards you. The extra range also means you can hide in cover and still provide a threat.

 

Bikers with meltas

 

Pretty much the same deal as raptors, but with the option to turbo boost allowing for faster engagement. Toughness 5 is better protection, but then less bodies since you'll probably only use 3. I've used 3 bikes with double plasma before with some decent results, but not with meltas.

I like the more wounds, jump movement and more Kraks of the Raptors over the Bikers. Where I think Bikers aren't horrible is actually anti-horde. T5 usually means you're being wounded on 6's against horde units and the TL Bikers with dual Flamers can take out a fair number of units.

Dreads?

 

Pity mention because they arn't heavy support.

Dual DCCW Dreads could maybe kinda be considered anti-tank, I mean 5 S10 attacks on the charge will bring down alot of things, however getting into combat is the problem. The good news is that you're cheap as crap. If you REALLY want some kind of ranged firepower, I think it has to be the Missile Launcher. The ability to fire 2 types of ammo means you can select the best type of ammo for the opponent and protect yourself if you fire frenzy

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Atheist: My objections to termicide are purely fluff based ones. Excellent summary of their strengths and uses.

 

Minigun: Good point on the 4 man termicide. And i hadn't considered the kraks on the raptors. Can their normal guys take melta bombs or only the champ? Don't have my codex handy. The thing with the missile launcher on the dread is that its just impotent. 1 missile on a 100 pt platform is just weak. You aren't killing a whole lot with 1 missile. But then again, you still have 4 attacks on the charge with your CCW. I like the idea of dreads for my list because i've already got 2 defilers, a prince (and will have a GD at 2k) so another walker is nice.

[minigun762]

I think its just the Champion. Frankly I'm never impressed with Meltabombs. I don't really see why you'd be using a Meltabomb over a Power Fist.

[DuskRaider]

I think Termicide is stupid and a waste of points. Why not go 5+ Terminators, all with Combi-Meltas? That way you can pop off a shot or two of melta a turn and take out multiple tanks? I'll usually drop them down behind my enemy, take down a tank first turn, and weather a round of firing for the opportunity to do it again. Reaper Autocannon is also great at taking out tanks from the rear.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Minigun: I wasn't thinking it over the powerfist. I was thinking the non-champ members of the squad having them.

 

DuskRaider: I think the reason termicide isn't taken in 5 man units is because it isn't supported enough to survive, even if its 5 guys.

[Redbaron997]

I cant stand Termicide and itll be a cold day in the warp when I use it.

 

As for non-heavy Anti tank:

 

My favorite would be 10 CSM unit, 2 Meltas, PF, Rhino

 

2nd favorite:

 

DP with Wings

 

Other goodins:

 

Bikes with Meltas and Raptors with Meltas

[Chimerical]

Okay, first thing is to ask if you really do need more anti-tank for your playing environment. What is your heavy support and what are your troops?

 

10 CSMs or 5 Plague Marines with 2 Meltas is good anti-tank, but perform well in other roles as well (scoring, fighting combats).

 

Some other reasonable anti-tank options that I think at least belong in the discussion:

 

10 Terminators with 2 Reapers + some Combi-Weapons and Chainfists + Icon of Tzeentch or Nurgle. Expensive but tough to kill. Don't dismiss this, it can work if you want it to.

 

5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster (No other upgrades). A bit like the old min-maxed Las/Plas unit. I sometimes use one of these in my EC army. Should directly hit all vehicles even with a 1" scatter, meaning an almost insignificant difference in hitting compared to a non-template weapon.

 

Maybe we should also include the combi-melta Rhino? They don't work so great for my EC army cause I don't want my Rhinos to be more tempting targets than they already are, but in a list like a berzerker rhino-rush where you've got a bunch of identical squads that want to get close and every rhino has one...

 

I'd even consider an empty one (Eg one brought for a havoc squad or the aforementioned Blastmaster squad) if I could justify paying AU$50 for the privilege. Which I can't.

 

None of these options are as efficient in anti-tank as the Raptor and Termicide set-ups. But depending on the make-up of your 1500 point army, you may not want or need that high-efficiency glass-jaw style unit. You may want the tougher more rounded unit...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I wouldn't really classify melta marines or plague marines as anti tank units. They are certainly units that have anti tank, but their purpose is beyond that. They are not specialists in the role.

 

I do not see 10 terminators with 2 RACs + combis as being efficient anti tank. Thats a 400+ unit. Deepstriking a 10 man squad is suicidal. Footslogging them means they may never come into range to use combis. Its also way too much shooting for just a tank. And, it isn't that hard to kill. Templates will wreck them even with a 4+ invul.

 

5 man blastmaster squads are nice as objective campers but are not efficient anti tank. They cost 140 pts, but are less effective than a single missile launcher. The chance of the blastmaster to kill a rhino thats outside cover is somewhere below 10%. Thats just not good enough for a unit that expensive. Its fine if you are using them to camp objectives, but not just for anti armor (i use one of these squads frequently).

 

Combi melta rhinos are an interesting point. Not an option in my current list as it isn't really assault based, but certainly an option for others.

 

I'm not going to post my full list here as its not really the topic. But its doomsiren NM based, has a daemon prince, 2 defilers, and 3 oblits. Its nowhere near enough AT to handle heavy armor saturation lists in 1500, let alone 2k.

[Atheist]

Quick question because memory has failed me and I am too lazy to look it up .

 

Do grenades hit rear armor too ?

 

If yes then the raptors are easily competing ( as someone already pointed out ) with the termicide .

 

The "problem" usually is whether they fit points-wise in a list .

 

Would you field the raptors solely as a tankhunting unit ( with only two meltas at 120 points ) or would you give them a powerfist champion with the same purpose if meltas fail ( and to make them ideal in attacking transports with passengers ) ? If this is the case ( and by all means should be - why not field them as battle-ready as possible , it's a shame not to take advantage of the 12+6 inches thing ) they would cost a bit more .

 

I 'm thinking that I would go the extra mile and include my *edit winged *edit* mortal chaos lord with a personal icon and a daemonic weapon/pair of Lightning claws and combi-melta ( a must buy to remind vaguely of a Warsmith hehe ) and combo the whole thing with deep striking oblits .

 

Nope , haven't tried it yet but I want to give it a shot ( and you're not going to believe what I just mistyped and almost posted , I am laughing to myself here ) .

 

I got a bit carried away eh ? Rant over .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Grenades do hit rear armor. I'm not sure if i'd do a fist if i were to run raptors. My list involves lesser daemons, so dropping a few for a fist champ wouldn't be a huge deal.

[Atheist]

Well , just throwing it out there , If you pop a rhino open , ( preferably exploding - a 5+ on the table when rolling for a melta - so that the passengers are inside the space the vehicle occupied ) and soft them up a bit ( with another unit shooting , sure they will get a cover save but who cares , they will fail some , and they might have also suffered loses from the explosion ) you can charge them and promptly cut them down .

 

Hmmm , I wonder if a power weapon or pair of LC would be better for the job .

 

If you're not playing the raptors-winged lord combo , perhaps a powerfist isn't a good option .

 

But then again what I am describing isn't a cheap option .

 

Ignore this .

 

:)

[Chimerical]

@ Drudge

 

I have to disagree about not allowing troops etc. to enter into the discussion. I guess my point is that once you get outside of our heavy support choices (which are overall very decent), I'm not sure the best approach is to try to get more specialised anti-tank, as opposed to using more of our versatile units which can handle a greater variety of roles.

 

Your case is sort of an exception for two reasons: You have chosen to base your force around Noise Marines (no reliable anti-tank from troops) and to use two Defilers (not great anti-tank and, more significantly, take away places for obliterators/predators/havocs). So yes, you may need to get some more specialised anti-tank units. Raptors sound like they fit the bill well for you, I think.

 

But if this is a conversation about CSMs in general, then I think some of the units I mentioned belong in the conversation.

 

Also, with regards to 10 man Termie squads, a respected player and Dakka Dakka user named 40kenthusiast has been experimenting with builds around them with surprising results. See some batreps here.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Good point Chimerical, i agree then. Its going to take me a lot to be sold on a 10 man terminator unit in less than 2.5k though :lol:

[minigun762]

I wouldn't really classify melta marines or plague marines as anti tank units. They are certainly units that have anti tank, but their purpose is beyond that. They are not specialists in the role.

 

They're no better or worse then Raptors or Bikers. Meltaguns/Power Fists and Krak are really all the anti-tank you need outside of fighting a skimmer heavy force.

Bikers have the highest maximum speed but lowest wound count.

Raptors are a middle ground between speed and wounds.

Marines (in a Rhino) have fairly decent speed but they can lose it unlike the others. However they have the bodies and scoring status to make up for it.

 

There is a topic over in the tactica section regarding Melta weapons and I'll say the same thing I said over there. I feel that a successful list will have some ranged anti-tank firepower to kill things you either want dead on turn 1-2 or things you won't be able to get close to. Then you need some close range anti-tank, which is the easiest for Chaos really as you just use Melta/Fists/Krak and call it good.

 

Good point Chimerical, i agree then. Its going to take me a lot to be sold on a 10 man terminator unit in less than 2.5k though :P

One BIG advantage that Chaos will always have is the ability to field cheaper Terminators, and as the squads get bigger that advantage is even more clear.

A fairly decent do everything squad of Chaos Terminators would be

10 Terminators, 2 Chain Fists, 2 Heavy Flamers, Icon of Chaos Glory = 350 points.

Loyalists would have to spend atleast 420 points to get the same thing, but even then I'd take IoCG over ATSKNF most days.

[chillin]

termicide is probably the best anti-tank we have. 5 raptors w/ 2 meltas work ok, if they can get there. If they fly, they can get intercepted or shot and it's not hard to kill 5. If you're going to DS, you might as well use termicide, 5 raptors w/ 2 meltas is 15 pts more then termi's w/ 3. Also your opponent has to put more into killing the termi's on his next turn then he would killing the raptors.

 

Of course a csm squad w/ 2 meltas can take out tanks just fine, but I see you didn't want to include them in this disscussion, and that makes sense, b/c tank hunting is certainly not a csm's squads main purpose.

Ohh, I give my chaos lord a combimelta too, and he has wings, so late in the game, if there is a tank alive,,, he can take it out in a pinch.

Again, certainly not his main purpose, but that BS.5 melta has come in handy once or twice.

[the jeske]

I think Termicide is stupid and a waste of points. Why not go 5+ Terminators, all with Combi-Meltas? That way you can pop off a shot or two of melta a turn and take out multiple tanks?

it costs cheaper . if you take a 6 man build you cant leave it without a fist or IoCG. also 2x3 means double the chance of actually seeing one on turn 2. with just one squad of 6 its no longer so sure. also yes one can drop 6 use 3 combis and then try to waste another tank next turn . IF and this is a big if . the returning fire actually kills only termis that already used their melta guns , the unit doesnt get shot up and then boged down in hth.

 

termicid are the best hvy support unit chaos gets along side of oblits . it is not as realiable as same melt unit sm have[and sometimes I like to kid myself that it was done on purpose , to mirror the chaos fluff etc] , but still cheap [termicid is not much more then 1 oblit].

 

other units have the problem of actually getting in to the 6" range . they can be countered they may have problems with terrain etc

 

 

as csm or pms with meltas go. yes it is true they dont just do anti tank . But when a list is build around lash and oblits and there is melta guns in all 4 csm/pm units , then the pms and csm are doing anti tank . not because the unit is ment to do that, but because the list plays that way.

[chillin]

I think Termicide is stupid and a waste of points. Why not go 5+ Terminators, all with Combi-Meltas? That way you can pop off a shot or two of melta a turn and take out multiple tanks? I'll usually drop them down behind my enemy, take down a tank first turn, and weather a round of firing for the opportunity to do it again.

 

Who are you playing that lets you get more then 1 round of shooting off with a termicide squad (5+ DS'ing behind enemy lines is still termicide) ? They shoot a few bolters at them, then say "oh well, I didn't kill them all, there's nothing I can do about it, I guess they will just take out another tank or LR next turn" ? Any reasonablly good player would just shoot them w/ another squad, or use some plaz or meltas or engage them in hth, and they would not get a 2nd round of shooting. How could you reasonablly think 1X6 termicide is as good as 2X3 ?

 

Now not using them for fluff reasons I could see, b/c you would actually not send your most experienced warrors w/ their irreplacable termi armor out on suicide missions.

(I justify this in my own head by saying that my termi's are actually DS'ing in, melting a tank and DS'ing back out, not dieing in a hail of gunfire and PW's :P lame I know, but that's how I think of it :P )

[The_Crippster]

Yeah, IMO termicide wins..

 

I haven't run raptors, but I'm planning on upgrading some of my vanilla CSM models I have sitting around with some jump packs (post heresy ones... we stole them... duh...) that I also have sitting around. I have 10 jump packs, so I guess I could field 2x5 or 1x10 or something. I'd think 1x10 is a sereous unit and not just a vehicle killer.

 

I have often run 2x3 bikes with meltas against tau and imperial guard players, and due to their incredible movement sometimes they actually lived after popping the vechicle to engage a squad in melee. (although do note I demonbomb in this list, making the tank-popping abilities of the bikes a bonus, as well as increasing their survivability by tossing more squads on the field)

 

 

I wasn't aware chosen could outflank. Does that come with the Infiltration rule? Anyways "Chosenicide" seems like it would cost far too many points to be worth it IMO.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah, IMO termicide wins..

 

I haven't run raptors, but I'm planning on upgrading some of my vanilla CSM models I have sitting around with some jump packs (post heresy ones... we stole them... duh...) that I also have sitting around. I have 10 jump packs, so I guess I could field 2x5 or 1x10 or something. I'd think 1x10 is a sereous unit and not just a vehicle killer.

 

I have often run 2x3 bikes with meltas against tau and imperial guard players, and due to their incredible movement sometimes they actually lived after popping the vechicle to engage a squad in melee. (although do note I demonbomb in this list, making the tank-popping abilities of the bikes a bonus, as well as increasing their survivability by tossing more squads on the field)

 

 

I wasn't aware chosen could outflank. Does that come with the Infiltration rule? Anyways "Chosenicide" seems like it would cost far too many points to be worth it IMO.

 

Chosen have infiltrate, and if you have infiltrate you may outflank is you remain in reserve. This is also passed to their transport.

 

I actually have 10 of the proper metal raptor jump packs. I haven't been sure what i wanted to use them for yet. Using only 5 of them would seem like a waste, as it would mean i'd pretty much be stuck making 2 5 man squads and i think i'd only want one.

 

My list does involve a bunch of lesser daemons. Probably 2-3 squads at 2k and a greater demon. With that in mind, perhaps i am better off with some bikes with naked champs to first turn turboboost and daemon bomb? Could this extra utility make them preferable over raptors?

[incinerator950]

You can infiltrate the transport?

 

Someone told me different, I hope you're right.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You can infiltrate the transport?

 

Someone told me different, I hope you're right.

 

You cannot infiltrate the transport. You can outflank it.

[Corpse.]

A few spots missed here.

 

Do you hit tanks early in the game, or later? Do you go after transports that are often moving? (and if so, ranged firepower is probly better then melta range)

 

I'm not sure of the complete parameters of "the best anti tank" since there are various scenarios. A IG player who puts his tanks in the middle of the table will ruin outflanking, and having infantry enveloping them is very anti termicide(teleporting oblits, etc), and for ranged purposes there is a fella I know who blankets conscripts so thick around his tanks it gives them obscurity!

 

I would hate to say it but there are no good anti tank options aside from short range and being capable of dealing with all meager obstacles that are in the way.

 

I would have to say Berzerkers with fist champ, krak grenades if its AV11+ rear and str9 powerfist for everything else except necron biggies.

 

Berzerkers keep the theme of getting close, and charging with overwhelming anti tank ability to ensure the tank is at least immobile and gun-less (if AV10 rear) or tied in melee combat/so close that blast weapons cant hurt them if the tank is still alive as they cannot shoot their own targets willingly. Even if the blast cannot hurt them, and thats their most vulnerable moment. If charged right, you get cover saves. If there is a "WS" unit near the tank (common scenario here) you charge both, and be tied in melee combat while slapping the tank a few times. The only great unit I can think of that punishes people for protecting their vehicles. Being in the middle + carpet bodies, its a great way to show them that the classic way beats it.

 

 

Secondary vote for most reliable unit from reserves I have to say the chosen unit with plasma/melta guns inside a rhino. Slap side or rear armor with plasma for beyond 6", or the choice of going melta as usual. No real risk of losing the unit before it makes its use. Termicide is the other option I would prefer, but I would rather spend a few more points for the chosen. (175 pts versus 115 average 3 combi-meltas and a fist versus 5 meltaguns and a vehicle).

 

Raptors versus Bikes debate...

Raptors can deep strike for a "termicide" style attack, no icon help though for homing in. Bikes are a nice way to hide behind a transport, then move it out of the way and turbo boost 24" behind something else that can completely block line of sight to them. Otherwise, raptors can terrain hop/jump out from behind a rhino or something with a small unit and make use of themselves. With the great majority of big guns, I have to say turbo boost is only useful in units of 5+ where small arms fire wont overwhelm them. Raptors are superior, since you can stack wounds easily for the unit and turbo boost is a one turn wonder most of the time. (Though a few bikes can offer obscurity to a rhino if done right)

 

Dreadnoughts are often ignored or do bad, low rate of success though if your army is synergetic with them then they can pull their 100 points worth in weight in melee. I often take one, just to take on a horde of hormagaunts or tie a unit of burnaboyz and other odd units that cant take powerfist equiv's. They are a great "rook" to add to any army if the army is mostly made and it has a few points for one.