Non-Heavy Anti Tank Options

[minigun762]

So Drudge, have you had any success trying out these alternative options?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I have not gotten to play a 2k game, so not yet. I will hopefully this week though.

[SquirrelKing]

Feel like chiming in here.

 

From personal experience (now mind you this is mostly 4th ed...):

 

Having a 5 man squad of raptors with 3 meltas was a core unit in my old AL army. With "new" chaos, I feel that saving 60 points but losing a melta still makes this unit good. If they start on the table, your opponent will always be looking at them: he knows what they are there for, and he should know their primary target by how you deployed. This is essentialy a diversionary tactic for you, it will make him react to your moves thus giving you the initative. He might lose shots by moving away from the threat. He might stand his ground, which actually makes your job easier. Or, you can be risky and deep strike them for the surprise factor. This will/might have the same effect as putting them on the table. Of course, if you get this unflapable/uncaring opponent, then whatever devious tactic you devise wouldn't have worked anyways... Raptors (oh how I miss their old rules) really can be a player moral affecting unit and I always felt this effect was better than their effeciency on the table.

 

As for bikes, a three man unit is very good, but of course fragile. You need to be extra patient with them and good at guessing ranges, because one inch off and you can spoil your attack, or get shot to bits.

 

I love things that go fast, they enhance the fun factor for me. But of course, with speed comes fragility. So these units take practice to master, and then you also need a bit of luck (as with anything really).

 

As has been said, they might not be super effecient, but they can be fun. Plus, a little variety can go a long way sometimes.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I got to try out the 4 autocannon havoc squad the other day. I had 6 or 7 guys in the squad, can't remember. They never got shot at. It was a fairly large game with me playing 2 1500 pt lists against 2 opponents who each had 1500 (black templars and deathwing). The game only went for about 4 turns before i had them annihilated (friends who are fairly new and still learning). The havocs sat on my back table edge and got to fire every turn. Turn one they wrecked one of the BTs rhinos. Turns 2 and 3 they attempted to pop another rhino, but were unsuccesful (my oblits popped it turn 3 after they failed). The issue came in turn 4: There was nothing useful to do with them. Once all the rhinos were gone, there was simply no targets they could efficiently kill. I shot at some marines with them, but they are just not good at killing MeQs or terminators. For 170 points they managed to kill 1 rhino and 1 marine. If the game had continued longer maybe they would have gotten another marine or two, but thats still a long way away from making back their points.

 

So this is only one game, but its brought up this issue: I don't think they are efficient vs MeQs as you can't pay that many points for something that is only useful for the first 2 turns, afterwhich all its intended targets are dead, or have disembarked their loads. If you are playing against non-meqs they will remain useful, but almost all my regular opponents are MeQ or TeQ.

[Night Lord Dred]

You cant look at it from a points back perspective. Blowing up Rhinos reliably gives you a great advantage overall. If they only blew up one rhino themselves, then you either got lucky with your other HS or your opponent didnt field enough of them.

 

Autocannons are great for anything with 4+ save, and AV10-12. Dreads, Rhinos and Speeders are all great marine targets. They also have enough shots on them to force marines/terminators to take saves. Towards the end of the game, I like them shooting SS/TH termies while my CC marines get the heck out of there.

 

Non marine armies get wrecked by autocannons. The do nearly as good as heavy bolters for AI, and demolish transports. They also kill units like Banshees with 4+ saves. They have the range to take out Lootas, and can make guardsmen run off the board from 48" away.

 

Honestly, if youve popped all the enemy rhinos and light vehicles, youve probably already won the game...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Its not a matter of winning or losing, its a matter of kill efficiency. The point of my post was simply that they are not efficient against marines unless they have a lot of low AV targets (more than a couple rhinos).

[Night Lord Dred]

What are you talking about? If you wipe your opponent up by demolishing his transports, why does it matter? So you played a game where your friends had a couple of rhinos, no dreads, no speeders, and you won. Against skilled players who are not just learning the game, their lists arnt going to be limited and youre going to be shooting those autocannons all game. If not, youve won and it doesnt really matter how efficient they were - you won.

[incinerator950]

Technically speaking, not everyone's army is going to be diverse, more or so people will minmax their major units or get a support going on that isn't a variety of different mechanisms working in conjunction.

 

However, I am agreeing on the killing alot doesn't equal a victory unless it's the objective. I learned this the hard way.

[minigun762]

I got to try out the 4 autocannon havoc squad the other day. I had 6 or 7 guys in the squad, can't remember. They never got shot at. It was a fairly large game with me playing 2 1500 pt lists against 2 opponents who each had 1500 (black templars and deathwing). The game only went for about 4 turns before i had them annihilated (friends who are fairly new and still learning). The havocs sat on my back table edge and got to fire every turn. Turn one they wrecked one of the BTs rhinos. Turns 2 and 3 they attempted to pop another rhino, but were unsuccesful (my oblits popped it turn 3 after they failed). The issue came in turn 4: There was nothing useful to do with them. Once all the rhinos were gone, there was simply no targets they could efficiently kill. I shot at some marines with them, but they are just not good at killing MeQs or terminators. For 170 points they managed to kill 1 rhino and 1 marine. If the game had continued longer maybe they would have gotten another marine or two, but thats still a long way away from making back their points.

 

So this is only one game, but its brought up this issue: I don't think they are efficient vs MeQs as you can't pay that many points for something that is only useful for the first 2 turns, afterwhich all its intended targets are dead, or have disembarked their loads. If you are playing against non-meqs they will remain useful, but almost all my regular opponents are MeQ or TeQ.

 

Remember nto to fall into the trap of using a unit once and then deciding if it was good/bad. Play it a few more games and you should start to get a better idea of how they perform.

 

As for this particular game, think if your Havocks had taken out the Rhinos on turns 2 and 3, that would have been more kills and freed up those Obliterators to fire on something else.

Statistically, 4 AutoCannons would yield between 1-2 penetrating hits a turn, so its likely they would have been stopping those Rhinos on a good day.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Remember nto to fall into the trap of using a unit once and then deciding if it was good/bad. Play it a few more games and you should start to get a better idea of how they perform.

 

Of course. I'm not judging their performance based off one game, but it did raise a conceptual issue. I had not really considered the issue of what to do with the unit once all the low AV was gone or was no longer worth killing. Its not a matter of playing lots of game to understand that autocannons are not efficient for killing 3+ armor saves. It could be said that this isn't an issue because if all the low av is gone i've probably won, but that isn't true as plenty of top competitive lists involve very little low AV.

 

This is the real strength of oblits, and is something that was not discussed before when evaluating these units. Oblits can spend the first couple turns popping transports, and then once transports are no longer an issue can move on to plasma cannoning stuff. None of these other anti tank units can do such a thing. Since we are talking about general/allcomers lists here, we must also evaluate these unit choices on their ability to contribute when there is relatively little light armor/armor for them to counter.

[Night Lord Dred]

Except the havoks only cost you 170 points. Its all about being in sync with the rest of the army. You shouldnt be depending on those havoks after they destroy the transports (which is half the battle).

 

You can also use them to move into CC as well, or run to contest an objective, or use their dedicated rhino.

[Atheist]

I'd actually prefer ML's because of the added antihorde ( frag shot ) element and posibility to score a penetrating hit up to AV 13 with a krak shot .

 

Same cost as the AC's , haven't done the math on their effectiveness against armor , I suspect that against AV 11 the AC's win , but most of our opponents can skip rhinos altogether these days ( except if it's Chaos vs Chaos matches ) .

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Night Lord Dred i think you are completely misunderstanding what i am talking about.

[minigun762]

I'd actually prefer ML's because of the added antihorde ( frag shot ) element and posibility to score a penetrating hit up to AV 13 with a krak shot .

 

Same cost as the AC's , haven't done the math on their effectiveness against armor , I suspect that against AV 11 the AC's win , but most of our opponents can skip rhinos altogether these days ( except if it's Chaos vs Chaos matches ) .

 

Well nobody can really say anything bad about the Missile Launcher.

For pure anti-tank the LasCannon or AutoCannon is typically better, but the dual shot nature of the Missile Launcher gives it alot of flexibility.

Now its true that Obliterators can field LasCannons and Plasma Cannons and both are better at their respective jobs then a Missile Launcher, but it is on a less durable platform and you don't have to worry about the shorter range and chance to fry yourself with the Plasma.

[chillin]

Well nobody can really say anything bad about the Missile Launcher.

 

Actually I don't like ML's at all. The AC is better vs rinos, ML can only pen. preds on a 6 (not many preds out there anyway), and IMO HB's are better vs hoards. I think the ML kinda falls short on everything it tries to do.

[chillin]

I got to try out the 4 autocannon havoc squad the other day.they managed to kill 1 rhino and 1 marine.

 

I'm actually surprized they didn't do alittle better for you then that. Could have just been bad rolling or the circumstances of that game.

I actually perfer HB havocs with 1 (rarely2) AC thrown in. They stop rinos well and I have had them do surprizingly well vs MEQ's, of course they shred ork and eldar. I don't know that I would take them if I knew I was going against s/m's, but in a take all comers army they aren't bad.

[Night Lord Dred]

Night Lord Dred i think you are completely misunderstanding what i am talking about.

 

Im not misunderstanding anything. You are complaining that havoks are not worth their points because they demolish rhinos only worth 35 points, and then have nothing better to do.

 

They have their purpose, and they do their job well. There are very, very, very few lists where ACs dont do well. The 1 Grey Knights list is one of them (and the only one I can think of tbqh). Just because they dont excel at marine killing and dont shoot anything near the end game (which is rare in itself) doesnt mean theyre not worth it.

 

Do you see MLB teams complaining about their expensive closing pitcher, who was never put in the game, because they demolished the other team? No. But I can tell you there are a lot of games they were glad they did have him. You have 2 other HS slots and a TON of other points to spend to do the marine killing.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Im not misunderstanding anything. You are complaining that havoks are not worth their points because they demolish rhinos only worth 35 points, and then have nothing better to do.

 

Nope. Re-read my posts.

[minigun762]

Well nobody can really say anything bad about the Missile Launcher.

 

Actually I don't like ML's at all. The AC is better vs rinos, ML can only pen. preds on a 6 (not many preds out there anyway), and IMO HB's are better vs hoards. I think the ML kinda falls short on everything it tries to do.

 

True they only penetrate Predators on 6's but they stun then on 5's and thats really what we're going for.

 

I'm not sure about Heavy Bolters vs Frags to be honest. With pure horde units, you're likely to get alot of hits, even if you scatter some and S4 is enough to wound most hordes on 3's.

I'd actually be interested in seeing the math-hammer on that, especially considering the extra 12" range you get.

 

Well the Missile Launcher is the typical "jack of all trades" weapon, so one could assume its not going to perform as well as more specialized weapons, but both of its firing options are valuable in light of a mechanized meta-game.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I wonder how a 2 ac 2 missile havoc squad would perform then?

[Atheist]

Well , due to its reduced cost , I'd field a six man squad with either 3 AC's or 3 ML's ( just to have an extra bodybag for every weapon )

 

At aprox. 40" range from the opponent ( and if placed in cover ) the above would be a rather tough unit to kill . Also , no-one will fear them most of the time which means higher chaces of survivability .

 

At 150 pts I think it pops light armor better than the same points worth of obliterators ( who are completely wasted if in the same "sit back and shoot" role , in my opinion )

 

Quick - slightly off topic - question : can I join a terminator lord with a trio of oblits and deep strike them together ? I think I can , but I would like some confirmation on this .

[Brother Nihm]

( who are completely wasted if in the same "sit back and shoot" role , in my opinion )

I disagree, Oblits can move and fire and are thus able to 'terrain snipe', Havocs have to remain stationary in order to fire and thus cannot limit the amount of return fire in any way, other than by their placement during the initial deployment.

 

Quick - slightly off topic - question : can I join a terminator lord with a trio of oblits and deep strike them together ? I think I can , but I would like some confirmation on this .

Yes, BBB p94 iirc.

[firestorm40k]

This is a very interesting debate :)

 

Recently I've been wondering about the tank-killing feasability of an all-infantry list, something I'd like to try when I eventally have the models.

 

SO it'd be Termies, Chosen with Meltas, Bikes and/or Raptors with Meltas, and 2x3 strong Obliterator Squads.

 

My concern is if I attempt Deep Strking or Outflanking (where relevant) against Guard that have Officer of the Fleet. I think I'd have to use the Fast Attacking units to get stuck in to the Giard player's HQ stuff (so eliminating the effectiveness of things like Orders and the Support Officer's abilities), then D/S or Outflank to get tanks etc.

 

Another thing to consider with this type of list, and probably something for another thread discussion, is the effectiveness of such a list against Horde armies. Would a Tank-less list be viable? I can see Obliterators being able to take a toll with multiple plasma-cannon shots, but I'd probably need to exchange some of the Meltas for Flamers... Hmmm, 5 out-flanking flamers against hordes of Nids or Orks, toasty! :P

[Night Lord Dred]

Im not misunderstanding anything. You are complaining that havoks are not worth their points because they demolish rhinos only worth 35 points, and then have nothing better to do.

 

Nope. Re-read my posts.

 

Why do you keep saying that? Every one of your posts is exactly what I said it was. Please tell me where you didnt say that:

 

For 170 points they managed to kill 1 rhino and 1 marine. If the game had continued longer maybe they would have gotten another marine or two, but thats still a long way away from making back their points.

 

So this is only one game, but its brought up this issue: I don't think they are efficient vs MeQs as you can't pay that many points for something that is only useful for the first 2 turns, afterwhich all its intended targets are dead, or have disembarked their loads. If you are playing against non-meqs they will remain useful, but almost all my regular opponents are MeQ or TeQ.

 

Of course. I'm not judging their performance based off one game, but it did raise a conceptual issue. I had not really considered the issue of what to do with the unit once all the low AV was gone or was no longer worth killing. Its not a matter of playing lots of game to understand that autocannons are not efficient for killing 3+ armor saves. It could be said that this isn't an issue because if all the low av is gone i've probably won, but that isn't true as plenty of top competitive lists involve very little low AV.

 

This is the real strength of oblits, and is something that was not discussed before when evaluating these units. Oblits can spend the first couple turns popping transports, and then once transports are no longer an issue can move on to plasma cannoning stuff. None of these other anti tank units can do such a thing. Since we are talking about general/allcomers lists here, we must also evaluate these unit choices on their ability to contribute when there is relatively little light armor/armor for them to counter.

 

You are complaining without any good experience and are running back to oblits. "This is the real strength of the oblits"...yes, doing everything, but doing it completely average. There is no reliability in 2 lascannons to take down a transport (even worse if theres smoke/cover). They are not the best melta gunners (Troops in Rhinos, Raptors). They are not the best anti horde. They are fragile. They are not the best at anything other than killing deepstriking terminators/working with lash because they have a plasma cannon.

 

---

 

AC SM viable targets: Landspeeders, Rhinos, Razors, Whirlwinds (even if theyre way in the back on his side, they can still hit them), Dreadnoughts.

 

Youre not going to kill SMs from far away effectively regardless.

 

4 Autocannons: 1.46 Marines

4 Missle Launchers: 2.20 dead marines, 1.1 in cover.

4 Lascannons: 2.20 dead marines, 1.1 in cover

4 Heavy Bolters: 1.76 Marines

 

Plasma Cannons are useless without lash against an opponent with half a brain, so assuming they get 2 under the small template, they should kill a little less than 1 after cover. (hard to calculate blasts).

 

So in what is kind of a shocking discovery, in cover theyre the second best behind heavy bolters, a non viable option otherwise. The lascannons cost 60 points more, and missles as discussed really arnt that great for anything.

 

So my point is, instead of taking oblits, take other units that are cheaper and do things better than they can. Autocannon havoks are one of them. They have so many dice that you should be getting a couple of pens and a glance or two on rhinos (which helps greatly against cover). They are a lot more survivable than oblits are. They are better in CC than oblits are. They still kill marines decently from 48" away.

 

Against other armies like Eldar, they dominate nearly everything. Banshees fall like flies. Warwalkers go boom. They can wound wraithlords on 5s. Orks - everything except front armour of a BW, including boys, gets demolished.

 

Point is, ACs do well under any circumstances.

[Night Lord Dred]

Ive been thinking, and Im wondering what people thought about a "termicide" squad that consisted of 3 terminators with one Reaper Autocannon, for a total of 115 points. The idea would be to drop them onto one side of the board, shooting across 36" to hit side armour. This way you avoid Bolters and have a decent chance of destroying/stunning AV10/11 side armour. They can just sit there and force your opponent to go out of their way to kill them, or have 2 twinlinked S7 shots hitting side/rear armour all game.

 

It really isnt as suicidal as the meltas, and I think it could help take down those rhinos camping objectives, or negate any cover that some AV10 units may be receiving from your other LR support.

 

Maybe you could add onto those 115 points with another few termies? I really dont have much experience with these new termies outside of termicide.