Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 You are complaining without any good experience and are running back to oblits. Show me where i am complaining. Show me where i say they are bad. Show me anything that implies that i am "running back to oblits". I acknowledge that its only 1 game (twice) and that this is insufficient to judge the unit. What i say is that they are inefficient and cannot make their points back VS MeQs. Can you see how this is NOT the same as saying they are bad? And i'm talking only about VS MeQs themselves, not MeQ armies which often have plenty of targets.I share the observations that caused me to realize this, and they do seem negative because the unit did not get to do much in this particular game. I point out that they did not (and were not going to) kill back their point value, and get jumped on for a simple observation because YOU thought i was judging the unit based on this. It does take me a bit to get to my main point because my first couple posts on the topic were just sharing observations. The main point though is this: Since we are talking about general/allcomers lists here, we must also evaluate these unit choices on their ability to contribute when there is relatively little light armor/armor for them to counter. You've got this highlighted, so you seem to think this is something against AC havocs. Its not. All this is saying is acknowledging another criteria we need to judge these units on, and that is the inevitability that the list they are part of runs into an enemy list without much for them to counter. For example, if facing a green tide melta bikes or raptors are obviously going to be pretty worthless. But AC havocs will excel. If fighting deathwing, the ACs won't be as useful but the meltas will still be nice for knocking out some terminators. You seem to have gotten very defensive about this. I am not sure what about my simple observations and the conceptual issues they have brought up has offended you so much. I'm also not sure why you have chosen to ignore my acknowledgements that this was only one game, or how you turned "AC havocs are inefficient and won't kill their points vs meqs" into "AC havocs suck i'm going back to oblits cause of this one game QQ." I'm also surprised that you'd think i'm doing something as noobish as evaluating a unit based only on its potential to make its own points back. Whatever your reasons for all this, I am insulted and would appreciate it if in the future you read the words i write, not the words i write with your own added bias and slanters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Ive been thinking, and Im wondering what people thought about a "termicide" squad that consisted of 3 terminators with one Reaper Autocannon, for a total of 115 points. The idea would be to drop them onto one side of the board, shooting across 36" to hit side armour. This way you avoid Bolters and have a decent chance of destroying/stunning AV10/11 side armour. They can just sit there and force your opponent to go out of their way to kill them, or have 2 twinlinked S7 shots hitting side/rear armour all game. It really isnt as suicidal as the meltas, and I think it could help take down those rhinos camping objectives, or negate any cover that some AV10 units may be receiving from your other LR support. Maybe you could add onto those 115 points with another few termies? I really dont have much experience with these new termies outside of termicide. I've thought about ti before and while I think it has some potential, I think normal Termicide is most powerful. What you're banking on is that the Reaper Termis can accomplish in 2-4 turns what the Melta Termis can in a single turn, if not more. Against Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators etc you probably will, since TL S7 shots will munch light armor but against AV13/14 units like Ironclads or Land Raiders, you're not going to really get anywhere and I think most people bring Termicide to bust Land Raiders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Ive been thinking, and Im wondering what people thought about a "termicide" squad that consisted of 3 terminators with one Reaper Autocannon, for a total of 115 points. The idea would be to drop them onto one side of the board, shooting across 36" to hit side armour. This way you avoid Bolters and have a decent chance of destroying/stunning AV10/11 side armour. They can just sit there and force your opponent to go out of their way to kill them, or have 2 twinlinked S7 shots hitting side/rear armour all game. It really isnt as suicidal as the meltas, and I think it could help take down those rhinos camping objectives, or negate any cover that some AV10 units may be receiving from your other LR support. Maybe you could add onto those 115 points with another few termies? I really dont have much experience with these new termies outside of termicide. I've thought about ti before and while I think it has some potential, I think normal Termicide is most powerful. What you're banking on is that the Reaper Termis can accomplish in 2-4 turns what the Melta Termis can in a single turn, if not more. Against Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators etc you probably will, since TL S7 shots will munch light armor but against AV13/14 units like Ironclads or Land Raiders, you're not going to really get anywhere and I think most people bring Termicide to bust Land Raiders. I think the roles that a reaper squad would play vs that of a termicide is different enough that we can't make a direct comparison. The termicide gets its 3 shots and dies, but a reaper squad could potentially shoot for 3 or 4 turns. It could pop a rhino or two and then still stick around to silence bigger, higher av targets. Also it is a different sort of distraction. A termicide will drop in close, and so will probably die to counter charge units or close range firepower that wouldn't be in range to hit anything else otherwise. But since the reaper squad would be further away, if they fire on it you'll most likely be taking ranged firepower off your tanks/transports. I don't think it'd be a substitute for termicide, but i do think it could be useful as a harassment unit, and another unit in the 100 pts range (rather than the 150 or 250 range) would be nice. I might give it a try. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Lord Dred Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Ive been thinking, and Im wondering what people thought about a "termicide" squad that consisted of 3 terminators with one Reaper Autocannon, for a total of 115 points. The idea would be to drop them onto one side of the board, shooting across 36" to hit side armour. This way you avoid Bolters and have a decent chance of destroying/stunning AV10/11 side armour. They can just sit there and force your opponent to go out of their way to kill them, or have 2 twinlinked S7 shots hitting side/rear armour all game. It really isnt as suicidal as the meltas, and I think it could help take down those rhinos camping objectives, or negate any cover that some AV10 units may be receiving from your other LR support. Maybe you could add onto those 115 points with another few termies? I really dont have much experience with these new termies outside of termicide. I've thought about ti before and while I think it has some potential, I think normal Termicide is most powerful. What you're banking on is that the Reaper Termis can accomplish in 2-4 turns what the Melta Termis can in a single turn, if not more. Against Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators etc you probably will, since TL S7 shots will munch light armor but against AV13/14 units like Ironclads or Land Raiders, you're not going to really get anywhere and I think most people bring Termicide to bust Land Raiders. This is true. However, I was thinking about maybe using the termies as, I know this is hard for chaos players to comprehend (including me), an actual unit instead of a trade off. I was thinking more of actually utilizing those 2+ saves and cheap 30 point entry costs (and 5 point meltas), and maybe using those power weapons. Maybe actually getting out of that triangle/diamond formation and moving around the board (utilizing shooting and moving). You know, using the terminators as intended, but in an intelligent way (aka not throwing them into boyz). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Lord Dred Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Drudge - In reply to your post up there - your post made it seem like youre giving up on them without thinking it through. Judging by the other replies, I dont think Im the only one who felt that way. As for my posts, I think youve mistaken defensive for my irritation of CSM players who simply fall back to oblits because they can simply do everything, instead of making an army thats better but requires units to be in sync. To be honest, I couldnt really care less if you didnt use havocs, its not going to affect me. I use them, but the idea came to me months ago from an old topic that I believe Minigun made a post about them in (and if it was him, he has no idea that he convinced me to do so). It's more so the (apparent) attitude you were giving off in your original post(s) about them. I would have been the same if it were any other well thought out unit, even ones I dont use. I like a few members on this board because even though all their ideas may not be the greatest (like possibly my RAC idea here), atleast its thinking outside the box and other ideas can sprout from them. There are many variations people can throw together and make a unique army that is in sync within itself. I dont think the codex is quite as limiting as (I) perceived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Then let us chalk this up to a mutual misunderstanding and failure of communication and move on with this thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 This is true. However, I was thinking about maybe using the termies as, I know this is hard for chaos players to comprehend (including me), an actual unit instead of a trade off. I was thinking more of actually utilizing those 2+ saves and cheap 30 point entry costs (and 5 point meltas), and maybe using those power weapons. Maybe actually getting out of that triangle/diamond formation and moving around the board (utilizing shooting and moving). You know, using the terminators as intended, but in an intelligent way (aka not throwing them into boyz). I'm all for that goal but I'm not sure if a 3 man squad with 1 heavy weapon really accomplishes that. What the Reaper squad is, is a different take on the Dakka Predator. Its 3 wound with 2+/5++ saves, a TL AutoCannon and 2 TL Bolters vs AV13/11 AutoCannon and 2 Heavy Bolters. I would expect both squads to perform about the same honestly. As for as using Terminators as an actual unit, Its been my opinion that the trick there lies in keeping them lean and mean but with more durability then a one shot wonder. My 2 favorite choices are: Super-Termicide = 4 Terminators, 3 Combi-Meltas, 1 Heavy Flamer = 140 points Use it the same way as a Termicide squad but you have some options on your targets now with the Heavy Flamer. Plus you're not totally useless after that first shot. Do-Everything Squad = 5 Terminators, 4 Combi-Melta, 1 Heavy Flamer, Chain Fist = 190 points The point cost is somewhere between a heavy support choice and a Rhino troop squad. Basically this is a deepstriking support unit, able to let its assistance anywhere on the battlefield from knocking out a Land Raider to frying hordies to tackling a MC. Its overkill for any one job, but not horribly expensive so you don't have to babysit it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Add the 5 combi plas, power fist, chaos glory squad to that list minigun. Drops in and wipes its point value of infantry in one shooting phase, then takes awhile to die and will hold its own in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Add the 5 combi plas, power fist, chaos glory squad to that list minigun. Drops in and wipes its point value of infantry in one shooting phase, then takes awhile to die and will hold its own in CC. I've thought alot about Combi-Plasma, especially since you can always shoot then assault with it and in the end I'm not sure. Disregarding the chance to fry yourself, which is fairly small, I just don't know if there is enough situations where 10 plasma shots beats out 4 melta and a heavy flamer. Against MCs? Yeah it would be better. Against light armor? Maybe, depends on if you're within 6" or not I say. Against MEQs? Outside cover yeah, inside cover probably not. So I'd consider it totally equivalent but I don't know if its my personal choice. As far as IoCG goes, I like it but I consider it less of a mandatory upgrade then on my CSMs. Terminators are not scoring and they come standard with LD10 and anything thats likely to make them take a really bad LD check is probably going to kill off a squad of only 4-5. Buts its nice to have if you have 10 free points. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 what about a more in your face build ? no oblits[gasp] 2-3x6 man squads with combis , 2xdps army tailored for assault. melta/plasma 3/3 mix up in termi squads . I would even play with one squad troops less to fit the third termi unit[maybe even enough points for icons]. hmm need to be tested for 5th ed . I only tested it in 4th ed for a AL build . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share Posted October 21, 2009 That could be interesting jeske. That many terminators would be hell to kill if they weren't packing enough plasma. And of course you could just melt whatever had the plasma on the deepstrike when you have that much firepower. Thats also a lot of power weapons to go chop infantry up in CC, and large enough squads to live to get there i'd imagine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I would try to put an IoT on them . +4 inv and the technical chance for cover should be enough [well for all save maybe IG and blade storm eldar builds]. what would worry be is the 2 troop choices at 1.5 points. It worked ok in 4th ed , when termis were scoring , now its not the case . the random factor would also be a problem . its ok when 2-3 units drop turn 2 , but if they dont the army is in big trouble. it would make the army a fire build , that more or less only wins through massacer. and fire list normally dont work real well in w40k[unless they are something like the old 3ed siege company] stupid 5th ed rule only troops scoring and no chaos specials that could give chaos units scoring status sadlly hurt our builds too much to try something fancy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2157826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I've thought about this as well but I think it would be better to do atleast 3 scoring units at 1500. 2 DPs 2 squads of 4-6 Terminators 3 squads of 10 CSMs or mix of Berserkers/Plague Marines at 2000 you add an extra Troop squad and another Terminator squad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180214-non-heavy-anti-tank-options/page/3/#findComment-2158115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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