Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 Hey guys. Back again with another episode of my competitive bullcrap. Trying to figure out today what to put in a Grey Hunter squad, assuming 10 men in a rhino (ie, no wolf guard). Do we go for the fist, or not? In a 10-man squad I consider the wulfen, 2 special weapons, and standard auto-includes, so assume those are present. To me 25 points for one power fist attack isn't great, but when you can't take a WG, it matters. What I'm going to say, though, is this: it's NOT going to magically save you from walkers or wraithlords. You're still going to lose most/all of your unit to the thing. To be a reasonable deterrent to those things, IMO you need a TDA WG with a chainfist, or a character. Anything less is asking for trouble. What's your take? Personally, I'm very much leaning toward neither, keeping my PW for scouts and taking out PF-requiring targets with terminators or shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 For an assaulty pack, the second special isn't required since you're going into CC anyway, so adding a WG with a PFist isn't a bad option. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a WG w/PFist add up to 38 pts? That would be cheaper than a GH w/PFist who costs 40. :) I may be wrong (I'm going off notes I took Wed ... getting the codex tomorow). In any case, 3 more pts for an extra PFist attack is worth it as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2134999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 This is true, though if I was adding a WG with a pfist I would at least give him a storm bolter, if not a combi-melta. That's not actually a bad option relative to the two assault weapon GH pack. The real thing is, what are GH packs supposed to do, and all in all, what is this ARMY supposed to do? That's something I still haven't quite figured out. The old wolf dex was all about slamming triple-AC termi packs and dreadnoughts down with pods and running the rest up in rhinos. Now...not so much, and I'm not sure what replaces it yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 25 points is alot, and when not on the charge or counter charge you will only get one attack with it. I can see why you wold be hesitant to put one in your unit. But, it is great for insta-killing characters, like those stupid elfy farseers who bug the hell out you with their psycic powers. I killed a Farseer with it last time I played so it was worth the 25points. He made the mistake of not killing it with mind war. But, really you should have a rune priest to dispell his powers. I think WG are a better option for the PF, you will get two attacks with fist in a round after charging. It is really your choice. Whatever will fit your style of play. Edit: Rokafort is right. For less points you can have a WG with that unit. Take a combi-melta for 3 more points than the cost of that grey hunter and you are not really missing anything. You really think many tanks will stand up to two melta shots and whatever that WG does to it with its power fist. Not to mention all those krak grenades (Which I have found suprisingly useful) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 This is true, though if I was adding a WG with a pfist I would at least give him a storm bolter, if not a combi-melta. That's not actually a bad option relative to the two assault weapon GH pack. The real thing is, what are GH packs supposed to do, and all in all, what is this ARMY supposed to do? That's something I still haven't quite figured out. The old wolf dex was all about slamming triple-AC termi packs and dreadnoughts down with pods and running the rest up in rhinos. Now...not so much, and I'm not sure what replaces it yet. The combi-melta is a good idea, especially since you're not getting the extra attack on the charge anyways ... As for your more existential questions ... here are my thoughts. First of all. No, the old dex was not about podding down 3xAC spam. It's specifically this kind of abuse that has given SWs a bad name over the years and I don't encourage it. As to what the SW army is all about. The SWs are actually one of the most versatile lists out there, especially with the new codex. With cheaper long fangs and the same mech as SMs, you can do a very shooty list that is supported by more specialized troops with a distinctive role. Space Wolves have always been an army that excels in close-up firefights and assaults. Few units can stand up to the withering fire of GH packs and the remnants will think twice about assaulting GHs knowing that we have counter-charge. Add in very effective assault units like Wolf Guard, the various Claws and Thunderwolves ... you can see that Space Wolves like to be in the enemies face. Regardless of how you get there, up close and personal is how SWs like to be ... an where our enemies don't want us to get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 To answer your question If you going to run a 10 man assult squad, they should be ran with 2 Meltas Motw and Banner. The idea is you stay away from Dreads and the like or you blast em from within the safty of your Rhino with your 2 Meltas. However, if you find youself in that specific situation you still have a chance at penetrating a Dread with rending (4+6 +d3) about as much chance of doing damage to a dread with 1 attack from a PF. Vrox. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Vrox, you're actually quite right: 1 attack from a pf is mostly useless chaff. For characters you're better off slapping them down with a barrage of normal attacks. I'm sold on that. Next part: what about the power WEAPON? For 10 points cheaper you get your full 2 attacks, but no increase in strength. Worth it for the extra anti-terminator smackdown? Also...9 + WG with combi melta, or 10 with a melta? You're looking at (with no power fist on the normal 10) 203 vs 180. That 23 points means you only shoot once with your melta, but two of your attacks become S8, no save power fist swings. Is THAT worth it? If not always...when? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Next part: what about the power WEAPON? For 10 points cheaper you get your full 2 attacks, but no increase in strength. Worth it for the extra anti-terminator smackdown? Terminators would be another one of those units to avoid with such a squad. I was not suggesting a GH pack of 10 is the best way to go, but you asked what was the best way to run such a pack. A pack of 10 would be either Tank Hunters, stinging bait for MC, meaning you want to tie the thing up until help can get there, or transport hunting. oh and following behind a Vindi for cleanup work is about there speed. If you want something that can take on terminator units your talking about a totally different pack. If you want that kinda juice just add The Rock. Also...9 + WG with combi melta, or 10 with a melta? You're looking at (with no power fist on the normal 10) 203 vs 180. That 23 points means you only shoot once with your melta, but two of your attacks become S8, no save power fist swings. Is THAT worth it? If not always...when? Don't limit yourself, take one of each. :) WG are gold for our leadership 8 troops, I plan to take one in all my GH squads. PF/CM yeah baby. The situation with WG is if you take 1 you take 3 or more. What else are ya going to do with em but hand them out like candy to your GH. Vrox Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Exactly. If I take 1 of each, I'm taking a bunch of WG. That's not a HUGE deal for me admittedly as I do have a dozen terminator models that need SOME use, as well as 30 GH. Tempted to pick up 10 more GH, honestly, or some skyclaws. Honestly I tend to kit my GH as general-purpose infantry clearers. Am I handling this wrong? I'm honestly not used to armies that actually kill things (haven't played SW since 4th, currently play Eldar). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Im a firm believer of versatility. Its good that youre trying other things beyond the standard (ie; WG in squad). But, there are two issues at hand. 1. The powerfist may only have one attack after the charge but .... Mathhammered out- a regular wolf will get two attacks. Against MEq this means a 16% chance of an unsaved wound. Against MEq a fist will get 51% chance of an unsaved wound. 2. Secondly its an attack that will help with ANYTHING. MCs, tough troops, FNP wielding nasties- the works. Beyond that theres another bigger issue at hand. Wolves have low LD. 8 is nothing special at all. A wolf guard is really needed to up this. Now, if youre wanting to handicap yourself two fold by not playing a model with more PF atacks that will influence your combat resolution further AND higher your LD, then..all good- but i just cant see the reasoning. If you arent wanting to burn Elite slots for WG thats cool - but then make sure whatever HQ you take has Saga of Majesty or an unlucky combat is going to see you in trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
saphius Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Vrox, you're actually quite right: 1 attack from a pf is mostly useless chaff. For characters you're better off slapping them down with a barrage of normal attacks. I'm sold on that. Next part: what about the power WEAPON? For 10 points cheaper you get your full 2 attacks, but no increase in strength. Worth it for the extra anti-terminator smackdown? Also...9 + WG with combi melta, or 10 with a melta? You're looking at (with no power fist on the normal 10) 203 vs 180. That 23 points means you only shoot once with your melta, but two of your attacks become S8, no save power fist swings. Is THAT worth it? If not always...when? Haven't seen the Dex but I'm assuming the WG also increases the LD of the unit to 9 rather than 8. - If I'm correct with my assumption the trade is too obvious not to do. Not just for Moral checks, but most importantly the LD check on Counter-Charge. Take the WG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WG Vrox Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 lol, a thousand different directions from here depending on this and that. Throw up a list in the army list section and we can better help ya. List models you have and how much you wanna spend on new stuff. Vrox. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Good point, I missed the leadership bonus as well. I think we can pretty soundly say that the standard Rhino squad is, from this: 9 Grey Hunters - Meltagun or Flamer - Wolf Standard - Mark of the Wulfen 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour - Power Fist - Combi-Melta Seems fair to me, and I like the elite feel. I don't think the PW is going to become standard kit, but rather thrown in if you've got a few extra points to help carve up MEQ faster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Kind of agree, if you have the points you can add another PW or PF to sqaud... But ya to be cost effective, go with that set-up. Funny how discussing the differences like that set us up to include 2 PF/PW. May not be as cose effective but still pretty legit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokafort Stonewolf Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Agreed, but I'm always about pushing a game to the limit, so I'm going to run the most efficient list I can cook up. I still don't think we've got anything as nasty as the Vulkan list though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Wait, the big thing about the Vulkan list iirc was the whole twin linked melta and flamer stuff. Beyond that it was just a normal marine list, right? So why don't we have anything on par with that? We've got cheaper squads with possibly double the special weapons (arguably better than twin linking.) and better CC at the cost of integrated hvy weapons in our troops (which we can fudge by taking WG units with terminator heavy weapons parted out to GH packs) Our new dex is plenty strong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Good point, I missed the leadership bonus as well. I think we can pretty soundly say that the standard Rhino squad is, from this:9 Grey Hunters - Meltagun or Flamer - Wolf Standard - Mark of the Wulfen 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour - Power Fist - Combi-Melta I had a long chat to Decoy (my Wolf buddy). We called this the "243 Squad" (on account of the cost if you didnt get that already)! I believe this is the hardest and most effective make-up/combination. You can drop two pups- sure...but at 10- its solid, solid, solid. 243 :D I expect to see a lot more people coming up with that number soon enough! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2135294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudslinger Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 I agree whole heartedly with the "243" squad. Incredible squad really. If you add in a Rhino, Xtra Armor, and Dozer Blades it become the "263" squad in a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLordLars Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Personally, and I have yet to really run the numbers, but I expect the extra Melta will take the place of my power fists in GH packs. They are there to shoot, not get stuck in. If I expect them to, a WG with a fist will be added.. but they shoudnt. On the other hand, having a Wulfen might mean that I replace the PW GH with a PF. The bright side is that I have so many extra models now that I have enough to put every optional build together.... ugh.. just what I needed, MORE options... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Power Weapon if the WGPL is going to have a fist, otherwise a Powerfist- because nothing sucks worse than being in CC with a Wraithlord and having nothing to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzouken Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Power Weapon if the WGPL is going to have a fist, otherwise a Powerfist- because nothing sucks worse than being in CC with a Wraithlord and having nothing to do. Or Dreadnought, or other big killy walker that has higher than FA 10. Granted we've got kraks... but I don't think you want to rely on those... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Power Weapon if the WGPL is going to have a fist, otherwise a Powerfist- because nothing sucks worse than being in CC with a Wraithlord and having nothing to do. Or Dreadnought, or other big killy walker that has higher than FA 10. Granted we've got kraks... but I don't think you want to rely on those... Yeah... grenades... thats going to take getting used to. not a bad thing, but remembering... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
em_en_oh_pee Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 (9) Grey Hunters w/ Meltagun, Power Weapon (Mark optional, but not needed) Wolf Guard w/ Combi-Melta, Power Fist Rhino [233] (+Mark if you choose to add it) Simple. Effective. Flexible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
utilityzero Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 am i alone in thinking of taking a WG with a plasm pistol as part of a GH plasma squad? i'm sort of thinking of little GH squads making up a plasma gun line with LF's taking on tanks and BC and SC or big GH packs in rhinos clearing objectives and counter attacking. and is the PW worth 10 points on a WG that isn't meant to go into combat? is it a deterent? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosPhoenix Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Am I the only one who thinks the wolfstandard at 10pts isn't needed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180298-new-gh-pw-pf-or-nothing-10-man-units/#findComment-2136814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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