The Emperor's Champion Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 They're not really ignored at all.....they're the Black Legion now and the game is Warhammer 40,000, not Warhammer 30,000.... Thanks for the reminder really i didnt know the game was 40k and that the Black Legion where actually former Luna Wolves. All im saying, and i am holding my foul language back, is tht GW hasn't focused on the Luna Wolves themselves, not what they became later on, expanding their looks and influences, other than what is described in the HH books. You're welcome. That's like complaining that they don't expand on the Sisters Of Silence or the Adeptus Custodes. Duh. It's not WH30k. Why the hell WOULD they? Actually, I don't think the Iron Warriors are Greek inspired. I know you think that because their home planet is Olympia, but to me the IW always seemed to mirror the German SS Panzergrenadiers, at least in older fluff, though they may be trying to get rid of this now to sanitize the fluff. You're probably right, but then that's why I said "at least a little". They don't really seem Greek most of the time. Some days tho I get the impression that there's more than just Olympus that's Greek about 'em tho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Surely you've SEEN the Blood Angels and heard of some of their stuff before. The imagery, sacred shrouds, grails, drinking of their lord's blood.... And yea, the Romans did more or less worship the Greeks; not as rulers or anything, but rather as the greatest civilization to ever exist. That's why they copied all their art and architecture and adopted their gods and culture. Well in the eyes of the romans at least. Odd how they treated the people who bathed every day, wore pants and had a more or less gender-egalitarian society (The Irish) as barbarians. But back on topic I would say the ONLY thing you could use of wolfy stuff to make something look more like a luna wolf would be a wolf tail, and even then you would have to paint it red and hook it on somewhere to make it look like those red-dyed tassels they had. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frijj Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The crusade forces didn't have much in the way of iconography upon thier armour. It seems to be mainly smaal bits where and there. Like the space wolves on the front of prospero burns, no iconography but lots of pelts. And in the first 3 HH books there is nothing mentioned about the space wolves wearing furs or pelts at all. Like explained they where more roman in their appearance. Which fits the fluff alot more. Why would GW name of primarch female wolf. Its all there in the fluff. As a quick aside, Horus wasn't found on the Lunar wolves (LW) home planet. I don't know where he was found, so the Horus part of his name could be due to the environ he was found in. But the luprical part directly fits from the romulus remus story. The lactating female wolf is horus. Horus turns up with the Emperor, majestic and briliant. The Emperor would have more than likely stood back and watched, after all these guy will become horus' legion, they need to built a relationship there. So having the whole roman wolf enfused culture what do they name someone who comes along, saves them from the harsh life they have, feeds them and makes them stronger and shows them a whole new galaxy to defeat. Luprical (the lactating wolf) So he became known as Horus Luprical. Back to the posters question, if you really want to know what they wore then read the first HH book. Specificaly the section about the embarkation deck where keeler is protographing loken and the other captains. Lokens and the mournival are wearing long red cloaks pinned to the back of the left shoulder and the right front shoulder (i think that how they wore them, not to sure though). So no wolf bits in there really. And if they ever did, great crusade markings tended to be painted on. Not layered on with other materials like the wolf heads on the shoulder pads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Why the Ultramarines or Luna Wolves would have axes at all is beyond me (WTH Honor Guard???).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_militar...ersonal_weapons Fasces In fact the Ultramarines claim to axes predates the Wolves: http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/ultraaxe.jpg note fasces honour on sergeants right leg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Weird. They're not exactly axes tho. Especially not as depicted in that picture. More of a Labrys, meaning it derives from the Greek aspect of the Ultramarines, not the Roman. The Axes Of Ultramar....I guess I can lump them under fasces though.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Horus was not named Horus Luprical he was named Lupercal. Lupercal was a nickname for Warmaster. Im sorry to say but the whole lactating Roman wolve does not make any sense the way you compare it to the Luna Wolves. I know the whole story I study history so I dont need anymore explanation of how the story goes. Horus was found on the planet Cthonia and that is were teh Luna Wolves were recruiting from after Horus was rediscovered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 It doesn't make any sense to me that Horus's nickname would be "cave of the she-wolf", but apparently nothing about his name makes sense. Horus? More like Romulus. He's not Egyptian. He's more like a dark god than a god of the sun. He didn't go all Voltron with the Emperor and become a single supreme being.... If ever GW was inclined to go and make a more perfect version of 40k where all the illogic was fixed I'd be not at all opposed to changing Horus' name to making sense, Ferrus Manus NOT being named that until after his hands were made of metal, Sanguinius being a title he got after his death and the blood curse rather than his actual name, Guilliman having a Greco-Roman name like almost EVERYONE in Ultramar, just random crap like that. It all bugs me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 well I didn't take Lupercal as a directly wolf related battle-cry since in 40k/30k Lupercal doesn't mean "cave of the she-wolf". It was simply Horus' nickname on his homeworld. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Lupercal is NOT the name of the she wolve, the name of the she wolve is Luprical. Lupercal is IIRC a nickname they gave him instead of Warmaster. Instead of yelling WARMASTER!!!!!!! they yel LUPERCAL !!!!!!!! when they go into battle. That is what is says in I think in Horus Rising. Horus got the name Lupercal after he was made Warmaster so it has nothing to do with his homeworld or with a Roman she wolve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Lupercal is NOT the name of the she wolve, the name of the she wolve is Luprical. Lupercal is IIRC a nickname they gave him instead of Warmaster. Instead of yelling WARMASTER!!!!!!! they yel LUPERCAL !!!!!!!! when they go into battle. That is what is says in I think in Horus Rising. Horus got the name Lupercal after he was made Warmaster so it has nothing to do with his homeworld or with a Roman she wolve. WRONG. The Lupercal ("lupa", Latin for she-wolf) is a cave at the foot of the Palatine Hill in Rome, between the Temple of Apollo Palatinus and the Basilica of Santa Anastasia. In the legend of Rome's foundation, Romulus and Remus were found there by the lactating female wolf who suckled them until they were found by Faustulus. The priests of Lupercus later celebrated certain ceremonies of the Lupercalia there; from the late years of the Republic till A.D. 494, when the practice was ended by Pope Gelasius I. Lupa/Luperca = She-Wolf Lupercal = cave of the She-Wolf Lupercus = wolf who is the husband of the She-Wolf If anything, Horus' nickname should've been Lupercus. The other 2 make no sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Horus was a laaaaady. No wonder he got so mad at the Emperor. He was born different. Daddy's little princess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2139975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Lupercal is NOT the name of the she wolve, the name of the she wolve is Luprical. Lupercal is IIRC a nickname they gave him instead of Warmaster. Instead of yelling WARMASTER!!!!!!! they yel LUPERCAL !!!!!!!! when they go into battle. That is what is says in I think in Horus Rising. Horus got the name Lupercal after he was made Warmaster so it has nothing to do with his homeworld or with a Roman she wolve. WRONG. The Lupercal ("lupa", Latin for she-wolf) is a cave at the foot of the Palatine Hill in Rome, between the Temple of Apollo Palatinus and the Basilica of Santa Anastasia. In the legend of Rome's foundation, Romulus and Remus were found there by the lactating female wolf who suckled them until they were found by Faustulus. The priests of Lupercus later celebrated certain ceremonies of the Lupercalia there; from the late years of the Republic till A.D. 494, when the practice was ended by Pope Gelasius I. Lupa/Luperca = She-Wolf Lupercal = cave of the She-Wolf Lupercus = wolf who is the husband of the She-Wolf If anything, Horus' nickname should've been Lupercus. The other 2 make no sense. One thing mate, if you gonna quote from Wikipedia make sure it is the right story. Romulus and Remus were not found in a cave they were found on the shore of the Tiber river by the wolve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2140053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I -know- what I'm talking about. Know your mythology better! The She-Wolf found them on the river, the shepherd found them with the She-Wolf in her cave. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2140076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrathnar Flintfang Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Calm yourself brothers! There is no need to fight over the naming of the fallen. Fact is, GW gave most of the Primarchs dumb names. They half-check little bits and peices of mythology and history and magpie it up and stuff it all togeather into the mass of contradictions that has become 40K cannon. Any word that means anything in real life means something else in the 40K continuity and just happens to be something we would associate with the 'theme' of the chapter or character ext because that makes it easier for them to write. The details of Roman myth are one thing (I refuse to argue them personally since my expertise is more on Irish/celtic/norse myth) but this is 40K, and in 40K if a word like Lupercal is used then it is used because it has something to do with wolves. Now I don't know if they were called luna wolves first and THEN they threw in the Lupercal or the other way around, but its all this mass of half-checked and half-assed canon writing that has permeated the game since its inception. You can look for the patterns brothers, but they are not always there. Best not give the GW writers too much credit, sometimes something confusing and seemingly semi-random is just that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2140120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I -know- what I'm talking about.Know your mythology better! The She-Wolf found them on the river, the shepherd found them with the She-Wolf in her cave. Dude thats what I said, the wolve found them on the shore of the Tiber river. Anyway I know my mythology and hostory stuff good enough. But lets get back on topic otherwise its just gonna be a discussion back and forth over just a minor thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2140161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 As mentioned, The Luna wolfs get their background from roman history. They are not wolfes like the spacewolfs, they are connected to the wolf because it is the animal of Mars, God of War. So the wolf indicates their very warlike and roman nature. They are not very fluffy or fangy, just sons of Mars Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2140456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Horus was found on the planet Cthonia and that is were teh Luna Wolves were recruiting from after Horus was rediscovered. I know I'm just a newbie here, but I'm pretty sure Horus wasn't found on Cthonia, I remember something in one of the HH books where it mentions how Horus affects a Cthonian accent used by the lowest and roughest gang on the planet, but his actual accent was really well spoken... I could be wrong, since I don't remember exactly where I read that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Horus was found on the planet Cthonia and that is were teh Luna Wolves were recruiting from after Horus was rediscovered. I know I'm just a newbie here, but I'm pretty sure Horus wasn't found on Cthonia, I remember something in one of the HH books where it mentions how Horus affects a Cthonian accent used by the lowest and roughest gang on the planet, but his actual accent was really well spoken... I could be wrong, since I don't remember exactly where I read that He was found on Cthonia but he was still an infant so he did not grew up on that planet. Horus is the only Primarch that grew up at the side of the Emperor, the rest grew up on the planet they were found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 He was found on Cthonia but he was still an infant so he did not grew up on that planet. Theres conflicting fluff on that, Horus Rising said he wasn't raised on Cthonia, False Gods says he was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Lupa/Luperca = She-WolfLupercal = cave of the She-Wolf Lupercus = wolf who is the husband of the She-Wolf If anything, Horus' nickname should've been Lupercus. The other 2 make no sense. Sorry, but I don't follow your argument. Lupa = she-wolf? Agreed. Lupus = wolf? Agreed. Lupercal = she-wolf's cave? Only because, in this specific case (the legend of Romulus & Remus), the wolf in question was understood to be female. Since -cal indicates cave, and Luper- would seem to indicate merely "of the wolf", there is no specifically feminine or masculine connotation; just that the cave in question belongs to a wolf. This is reinforced by the fact that the priests in charge of the Lupercalia festivals were named Luperci: brothers of the wolf, or, at any rate, priests (male) of the wolf. At any rate, it wouldn't have mattered a bit. Horus Lupercal might have been found in a wolf's cave, but whether the wolf living in the cave was male or female would have made no difference where the Primarch was concerned. All it would indicate is that he was from there. It's the same as calling someone an Athinaios in Greek: Athina (Athens) was the name of the city, derived from a female goddess. That didn't make it weird for a man to be from there. Cheers, P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 @Vissah: read it again then because Lupercal was not a term they used instead of Warmaster. As I've already mentioned it was his nickname on Cthonia. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Lupa/Luperca = She-WolfLupercal = cave of the She-Wolf Lupercus = wolf who is the husband of the She-Wolf If anything, Horus' nickname should've been Lupercus. The other 2 make no sense. Sorry, but I don't follow your argument. Lupa = she-wolf? Agreed. Lupus = wolf? Agreed. Lupercal = she-wolf's cave? Only because, in this specific case (the legend of Romulus & Remus), the wolf in question was understood to be female. Since -cal indicates cave, and Luper- would seem to indicate merely "of the wolf", there is no specifically feminine or masculine connotation; just that the cave in question belongs to a wolf. This is reinforced by the fact that the priests in charge of the Lupercalia festivals were named Luperci: brothers of the wolf, or, at any rate, priests (male) of the wolf. At any rate, it wouldn't have mattered a bit. Horus Lupercal might have been found in a wolf's cave, but whether the wolf living in the cave was male or female would have made no difference where the Primarch was concerned. All it would indicate is that he was from there. It's the same as calling someone an Athinaios in Greek: Athina (Athens) was the name of the city, derived from a female goddess. That didn't make it weird for a man to be from there. Cheers, P. You're right, you don't follow. "Lupercal" is a proper name of the specific cave in which THE She-Wolf who raised Romulus and Remus lived. It's not just a noun referring to any old wolf's cave. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmb_123 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 On the topic of why GW have used certain names 'out of context', is it not possible that they've been used entirely in context? By this I'm suggesting that they're just names in a game world unrelated to the mythology of ancient/classical societies. Granted, GW used them becuase of their appearance in these fantastical stories, but when applied to their own characters and fictional universe they are divorced from their original connotation. After all, I'm sure that if many of us from societies with a Christian background were to check the origin of our names they'd be biblical. In Hispanic tradition Jesus is a very popular name, but I very much doubt that the parents of a child with this name actually expect their little one (or, wait for it, little Juan) to take on the attributes of the Christian prophet. I know the whole story I study history so I dont need anymore explanation of how the story goes. I don't understand. Isn't the point of history to always explain the 'story'? I think it's something to do with interpretation and re-interpretation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2141730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ion Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Lupa/Luperca = She-WolfLupercal = cave of the She-Wolf Lupercus = wolf who is the husband of the She-Wolf If anything, Horus' nickname should've been Lupercus. The other 2 make no sense. Sorry, but I don't follow your argument. Lupa = she-wolf? Agreed. Lupus = wolf? Agreed. Lupercal = she-wolf's cave? Only because, in this specific case (the legend of Romulus & Remus), the wolf in question was understood to be female. Since -cal indicates cave, and Luper- would seem to indicate merely "of the wolf", there is no specifically feminine or masculine connotation; just that the cave in question belongs to a wolf. This is reinforced by the fact that the priests in charge of the Lupercalia festivals were named Luperci: brothers of the wolf, or, at any rate, priests (male) of the wolf. At any rate, it wouldn't have mattered a bit. Horus Lupercal might have been found in a wolf's cave, but whether the wolf living in the cave was male or female would have made no difference where the Primarch was concerned. All it would indicate is that he was from there. It's the same as calling someone an Athinaios in Greek: Athina (Athens) was the name of the city, derived from a female goddess. That didn't make it weird for a man to be from there. Cheers, P. You're right, you don't follow. "Lupercal" is a proper name of the specific cave in which THE She-Wolf who raised Romulus and Remus lived. It's not just a noun referring to any old wolf's cave. Somehow I doubt very much that they know that on Cthonia some 28 000 years from now.... So to them it could be a noun referring to a wolf cave Of course, its equally likely someone's gone 'oh, that looks cool, lets use Lupercal' without researching it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2142200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Mordeus Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 I think that we need to come to the conclusion that Lupercal is just a wolf infuenced nickname, that sounds better as a warcry than Lupus or Lupa or whatever Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180360-how-wolfy-were-the-luna-wolves/page/2/#findComment-2142220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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