the great beaver Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 yeah, looking for an exception that GW has never made is just fishing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 rite this is probably a stupid question or has already been asked but i aqm just wondering do you get to change your mind after you have measured the 24 inches and go i dont want to point it there i want to move it there because i hit more models?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Depends on your opponent. Officially I don't think there is a stance on "changing your mind after you measure". Generally, that can be viewed as pre-measuring and that IS against the rules. SO, think and look before you lay down the measuring device. Hopefully, after a few games you will get a sense for how long 24" is. Â One trick is to actually measure (like teh rules say) from a nearby weapon to a unit. Seeing that range gives you a decent approximation of distance for another unit to use. Â To get back to the OT: too bad, not through your own troops. Â Also, the B+C is NOT the final arbiter for this rule. You should talk it over with your LGS players and seriously be mature enough to accept that the majority decision may not be what you want it to be. In a tournament, be conservative. It makes you a better player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 thanks for the clarification : ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 However, it ends with more or less the same result in this case. If you trace your line and it goes through your own model, you are targeting your own model. Hence you may not target like that.  So, to answer the question, no it cannot harm your own models, because you are not allowed to target your own models.  More semantics.  Page 15 of the Rulebook: Check line of sight and pick a target ... Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire.  Check range ... At least one target model must be within range...  Page 16 of the Rulebook: A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as it's target. ... If no models have line of sight then a different target must be chosen.  Page 17 of the Rulebook: Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically...  This establishes that all shooting must be done so that you choose a target (must be an enemy unit, within Line of Sight). You then check range. If you are out of range, your shots simply have no effect.  Page 50 of the Rulebook: Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless otherwise specified). ... the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase...  GW's wording, and intention, for psychic shooting attacks, is that they function in a similar manner to regular shooting, which, as we know, can be targeted past/over/through a friendly unit so long as the models shooting have Line of Sight and range.  I would argue that JotWW can hurt your own friendly models, if your own units happen to be standing between the Rune Priest and your target unit (or if you hit your target unit first, and the extra line moving past that target unit happens to hit your own models.  i.e.:  |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----------Friendly unit ------------- Enemy unit   |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----------Enemy unit ------------- Friendly unit  Edit:  In most cases, it is the latter that will happen, because the straight line (I would argue) MUST follow your Line of Sight. However, there are instances where sometimes the base is significantly larger than the model (i.e. Terminators, Carnifexes, etc.) or your angle of fire may allow you to see an enemy model "through" a friendly model, even over it's base, where some tricky situations may occur where JotWW actually hits your own models first.    DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 However, it ends with more or less the same result in this case. If you trace your line and it goes through your own model, you are targeting your own model. Hence you may not target like that.  So, to answer the question, no it cannot harm your own models, because you are not allowed to target your own models.  More semantics.  Page 15 of the Rulebook: Check line of sight and pick a target ... Pick one of your units, check its line of sight and choose a target for it. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire.  Check range ... At least one target model must be within range...  Page 16 of the Rulebook: A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as it's target. ... If no models have line of sight then a different target must be chosen.  Page 17 of the Rulebook: Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically...  This establishes that all shooting must be done so that you choose a target (must be an enemy unit, within Line of Sight). You then check range. If you are out of range, your shots simply have no effect.  Page 50 of the Rulebook: Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless otherwise specified). ... the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase...  GW's wording, and intention, for psychic shooting attacks, is that they function in a similar manner to regular shooting, which, as we know, can be targeted past/over/through a friendly unit so long as the models shooting have Line of Sight and range.  I would argue that JotWW can hurt your own friendly models, if your own units happen to be standing between the Rune Priest and your target unit (or if you hit your target unit first, and the extra line moving past that target unit happens to hit your own models.  i.e.:  |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----------Friendly unit ------------- Enemy unit   |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----------Enemy unit ------------- Friendly unit  Edit:  In most cases, it is the latter that will happen, because the straight line (I would argue) MUST follow your Line of Sight. However, there are instances where sometimes the base is significantly larger than the model (i.e. Terminators, Carnifexes, etc.) or your angle of fire may allow you to see an enemy model "through" a friendly model, even over it's base, where some tricky situations may occur where JotWW actually hits your own models first.    DV8  That actually seems fair! As far as "picking one target" goes! Everything else just happens to be in the way.   Another issue- that im not sure if its been assumed or not (and im just slow???) But with the wording of JotWW being what it is- it reads like you can snipe characters? Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the great beaver Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 yeah go look at the rules for placing template weapons...it's not possible to shoot your own troops with regular weapons...in every situation where you can include your own models in a shot it states that you can't. I don't see why this would be an acception. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2137747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 That actually seems fair! As far as "picking one target" goes!Everything else just happens to be in the way. Â Â Another issue- that im not sure if its been assumed or not (and im just slow???) But with the wording of JotWW being what it is- it reads like you can snipe characters? Thoughts? Â It looks like, although most characters have relatively high initiatives, so it'll be tough to snipe them out. Again as mentioned before, I think sniping through combat might be a very tricky way to use JotWW (knock out Power Fists/Weapons/etc.). Â yeah go look at the rules for placing template weapons...it's not possible to shoot your own troops with regular weapons...in every situation where you can include your own models in a shot it states that you can't. I don't see why this would be an acception. Â Only JotWW isn't a template weapon. It's a psychic shooting attack that functions like a normal attack, where the only stipulation (much like Ordnance) is that your intended target must be within LoS, range, and be an enemy unit. After that, all bets are off. Â Â DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haakon_Stormbrow Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 units touched ergo both yours and the enemies.... however if you note it does not say you can trace through a vhecle, which means a clever opponent can use a rhino wall or for close range you can park your rhino where you want it to end so you don't hit your own troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 units touched ergo both yours and the enemies.... however if you note it does not say you can trace through a vhecle, which means a clever opponent can use a rhino wall or for close range you can park your rhino where you want it to end so you don't hit your own troops.  I don't understand your argument. What do you mean by units touched, ergo both yours and the enemies?  Shooting specifies that your TARGET unit must be an enemy unit, within range, and LoS. You cannot voluntarily choose a friendly unit as a target. HOWEVER, should that 24" line, following all regular stipulations, then happen to touch a friendly model, they too must test.  And no, vehicles do not technically "stop" JotWW. They are simply unaffected. Keep in mind, again however, that you still need LoS to your target unit.  i.e.:   |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----Enemy unit A -----Vehicle------ Enemy unit B  In this instance, only unit A can be your target, since the Vehicle (friend or foe) blocks LoS, but both units A and B are affected because they are on that 24" line.  |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----Enemy unit -----Vehicle------ Friendly unit  In this instance, both the enemy unit and your unit are affected, even though you cannot see your own unit.  |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----Friendly unit -----Vehicle------ Enemy unit  In this instance, you cannot target the enemy unit and thus you cannot fire JotWW, because per shooting attacks, you cannot target a friendly unit, and the vehicle blocks LoS   DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 quick question re th target being on the other side of one of your units of vica versa - can you claim a cover save for them as they're in the way although still being hit by the same (psychic) shooting attack? I should probably check if cover saves can e taken aganst remove from game effects but am lazy :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 quick question re th target being on the other side of one of your units of vica versa - can you claim a cover save for them as they're in the way although still being hit by the same (psychic) shooting attack? I should probably check if cover saves can e taken aganst remove from game effects but am lazy :P There is no wound, so no saves. Cover is irrelevant against JOTWW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 isn't there a rule in the rulebook somewhere saying that you can't deliberately hurt your own models? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgers37 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 you could use it to kill a lone wolve :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldenhaller Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 cheers JamesI - knew there was something in there  and my appologies for just being lazy :P  ~O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 isn't there a rule in the rulebook somewhere saying that you can't deliberately hurt your own models?  Probably under the rules for Template weapons (which, again, JotWW is not).  @Rodgers37 - that is a conceivable plan, if last-minute you find the Lone Wolf is still alive. Keep in mind you'd need to roll a 5 or 6 though so your best bet to killing a Lone Wolf is still to just run him at the biggest, bad-ass enemy unit you can find.  EDIT: I do want to clarify targeting and vehicles too.  |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----Friendly unit -----Vehicle------ Enemy unit  In this instance, were the vehicle your own, you would not be able to fire JotWW because you cannot see past your vehicle. HOWEVER, if the vehicle is an enemy vehicle, you can elect to fire JotWW at it, electing that as your target (and hurting the enemy unit behind it). Just because it is not affected does not mean it is not a valid target to shoot at. Again the stipulation would still apply, and you need LoS through your friendly unit.  |--------------------------24"--------------------------| Rune Priest ----Vehicle------ Enemy unit-------Friendly unit  In this instance, again were the vehicle your own, you would not be able to fire JotWW. If the vehicle is an enemy vehicle, you can elect that as your target, and though it is unaffected, the line will hit the enemy unit (hurting them) AND your own (hurting them).   DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Shooting specifies that your TARGET unit must be an enemy unit, within range, and LoS. the only problem is Jaws doesnt target , to target you would have to pick a model , but with jaws you dont . you draw a line and force I tests . the only thing simiular to Jaws were the old 4th ed librarian powers and those did have the part when it said , if it touches a friendlly unit it stops. Jaws doesnt have that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Shooting specifies that your TARGET unit must be an enemy unit, within range, and LoS. the only problem is Jaws doesnt target , to target you would have to pick a model , but with jaws you dont . you draw a line and force I tests . the only thing simiular to Jaws were the old 4th ed librarian powers and those did have the part when it said , if it touches a friendlly unit it stops. Jaws doesnt have that. Â Page 37 of the Space Wolves Codex: Â Jaws of the World Wolf: ... As a psychic shooting attack... Â And once again, because you clearly didn't read my initial post on this: Â Page 50 of the Rulebook: Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless otherwise specified). ... the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase... Â Â DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Good catch DV8. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180382-jaws-of-the-world-wolf-wording/page/2/#findComment-2138259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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