Chengar Qordath Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Mathhammer only truelly works when your rolling vast numbers of dice and can hit the 'bell curve', when you only rolling a few... forget it, its all 'luck' Luck is certainly a big factor in any individual game, but focusing too much on luck doesn't really give a good idea of how well different weapons or pieces of wargear work. I've seen a Leman Russ Executioner fire off five plasma blasts against a Terminator squad and not manage a single kill, and I once saw a terminator squad wiped out by a single round of plain bolter fire because the player managed to fail all of his 2+ armor saves. Luck is definately a massive factor in 40k, but at the same time one can't ignore the fact that most of time plasma cannons kill TEQ better than bolters do. I often find if a person plays enough games, experiences are the best source of education for list building and tactics. Well, once you've played enough games of 40k your experience and luck start to match the bell curve result one obtains from mathhammer pretty closely. There will be moments of massive good luck and massive bad luck, but for the most part luck will be about average. That said, when it comes down to building an entire army list (rather than deciding which type of missile your launchers should use against a specfic unit type as the OP discussed) mathhammer can't be the only thing used; list synergy and personal playstyle will be far more important than how mathematically effective any individual weapon will be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2139158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 That said, when it comes down to building an entire army list (rather than deciding which type of missile your launchers should use against a specfic unit type as the OP discussed) mathhammer can't be the only thing used; list synergy and personal playstyle will be far more important than how mathematically effective any individual weapon will be. I think we can agree on this :D Gc08 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2140021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronk Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I field 2 Dev squads.. one with 3 MLs and one with 3 PCs. I love them. How large are the squads in terms of total Marines? Ugh. I'm a huge non-fan of 5-man devastator squads. If someone hits you with a frag missle, you're likely to start losing your heavy weapons quickly. 7-man or 8-man for me, thank you. Leave the razorback at home. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2140242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tahrikmili Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 Ugh. I'm a huge non-fan of 5-man devastator squads. If someone hits you with a frag missle, you're likely to start losing your heavy weapons quickly. 7-man or 8-man for me, thank you. Leave the razorback at home. Not possible with Blood Angels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2141070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Ugh. I'm a huge non-fan of 5-man devastator squads. If someone hits you with a frag missle, you're likely to start losing your heavy weapons quickly. 7-man or 8-man for me, thank you. Leave the razorback at home. Not possible with Blood Angels. 2-3 heavy weapons out of 5 isn't bad, especially considering your 'dex has you handicapped compared to most other 'dexes. I think I'd still rather field a Baal Predator in that heavy slot than a dev squad though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2141665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 That's because the Baal Predator is a Predator that's actually worth taking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2141680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Askari Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Seems a rhino would be a better transport for the multi-melta devs since they can then drive up one turn and fire out the top the next turn. Otherwise they're not good at much except supporting an objective camper unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2144127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Has anyone tried to find the difference in anti-horde killing power between 4 Heavy Bolters and 4 Frag blasts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2150050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangomegadeath Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Ok, i'll have a go at this. 4 heavy bolters at geq is 12 shots, 5/6 kill, no saves: 12/1 * 5/6 = 60/6 or 10/1 yes? 10 kills then. so for a frag to do the same: x/y = 10/1 * 3/2 * 3/2 = 90/4 or 22.5 hits to cause 10 kills. so each of the 4 frags has to cover 5.625 (22.5/4) models to cause 10 kills. checking this: 5.625 hits * 4 templates = 22.5 hits 2/3 wound and 2/3 get past the armour so: 45/2 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 15/1 * 4/9 = 180/18 = 10/1 = 10 kills. Conclusion = go heavy bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2156624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm not sure you factored in chance to hit with either weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2156703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I'm not sure you factored in chance to hit with either weapon. He didn't. To correct his mathhammer: 12 Heavy Bolter shots x 2/3 = 8 hits x 5/6 = 6.66 wounds at AP 4 x/y = 6.66 * 3/2 * 3/2 = 15 hits from frag missiles to cause an equal number of wounds. Each blast template would need to cover an average of 3.75 models to make an equal number of kills. Not surprising that the Heavy Bolter makes a better horde-killer; that's it's main purpose after all. The big thing Missile Launchers have going for them is versatility; they're not the best at any one role, but they can do a decent job at multiple tasks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2157405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangomegadeath Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'm not sure you factored in chance to hit with either weapon. DOH!!! :lol: not quite sure how i missed that one??? the basics were correct though? (it's been a long time since school!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/180454-missile-launchers-agains-meq-and-teq/page/2/#findComment-2159635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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