Logan and WG counting as troops

[Ramora]

So if you were to take logan he makes WG troops so does that mean you can only take them as troops and not as elites as well?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Well the text says "counts as troops" as oposed to "may be taken as troops" or "are troops." To me that says that you can only take them as elites, but they count as troops (effectively making them scoring and letting you start with them deployed in dawn of war missions, or any other mission where you can do special things with troops). But this is GW and they are not particularly good at little things like consitancy or clarity in their rules.

[Ramora]

That makes sense to me.

[Grey Mage]

Well the text says "counts as troops" as oposed to "may be taken as troops" or "are troops." To me that says that you can only take them as elites, but they count as troops (effectively making them scoring and letting you start with them deployed in dawn of war missions, or any other mission where you can do special things with troops). But this is GW and they are not particularly good at little things like consitancy or clarity in their rules.

I would say that if that was the way it should be read they would simply say "are scoring".

 

Count as troops means just that- you buy them from troops slots, they score if they meet the other restrictions, and you can use them for your compulsory choices.

 

It doesnt say they count as troops and elites, so I would be inclined to say no, you cant use those slots. It doesnt say they also count as elites, so IMHO they arent- end of story.

[Ramora]

It does say "count as" not "are" so thats were my confusion comes from.

[Frijj]

they do count as troops, count towards the min and max to be taken.

There is very little confussion in the matter.

They have specifitaly mentioned the word troop, so thats what section they fall under.

If they where to count as scoring units and a unit that can set up in dawn of war then they would have stated that.

The wording has been read into far to much.

[nighthawks]

...

The wording has been read into far to much.

maybe it hasn't. counting as troops in game terms - DoW deployment, scoring status, and other mission specific things (such as kill points in 'ardboys) and counting as troops for the purposes of filling compulsory slots or with regard to the unit section allowance can have very different effects.

 

referencing C:SM variants on the theme - Pedro allows Sternguard units to be "scoring" via the "Hold The Line!" special rule found in the unit descriptions (AKA bestiary). Captains on bikes allow 5+ model bike squads to be "taken as Troops choices" due to "mounted Assault" blurb in the army list.

 

C:SW places the text similarly to "mounted assault" and has language that more closely matches that than it does "hold the Line!" the phrase "counts as" is always prone to some debate, and in this case we have the temporal element - when do they begin to count as troops? When I'm building my list, deploying, at the end of the game as we count scores? I think that it is most likely to translate into "may be taken as," but be prepared to meet someone who feels otherwise.

[Grey Mage]

...

The wording has been read into far to much.

maybe it hasn't. counting as troops in game terms - DoW deployment, scoring status, and other mission specific things (such as kill points in 'ardboys) and counting as troops for the purposes of filling compulsory slots or with regard to the unit section allowance can have very different effects.

 

referencing C:SM variants on the theme - Pedro allows Sternguard units to be "scoring" via the "Hold The Line!" special rule found in the unit descriptions (AKA bestiary). Captains on bikes allow 5+ model bike squads to be "taken as Troops choices" due to "mounted Assault" blurb in the army list.

 

C:SW places the text similarly to "mounted assault" and has language that more closely matches that than it does "hold the Line!" the phrase "counts as" is always prone to some debate, and in this case we have the temporal element - when do they begin to count as troops? When I'm building my list, deploying, at the end of the game as we count scores? I think that it is most likely to translate into "may be taken as," but be prepared to meet someone who feels otherwise.

Agreed... each codex has its own wording for these things- look at C:DA for another example of such with their Special Characters.

 

Still, since it does not specify a time it seems, to me, that it must be assumed that a unit of WG in an army with Logain is always considered to be a troop- during list building, during deployment, and during the gameplay. Much like a unit of tactical marines with pedro kantor is always stubborn... during list building, game playing, deployment, what have you. Even if hes dead for that matter.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

Counts as troops means that they are in all ways troops, including FoC.

[Isiah]

For discussion purposes, let's remind ourselves of the wording:

 

"Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar."

 

Must admit the wording isn't as clear as it could be IMHO. [by the way the DA Codex is much clearer on this unit swap thing I think.]

 

That aside, and to help answer the OPs other question, if WG units "count as Troops" with Logan around that statement seems to me it's not an optional choice and is always therefore switched on so to speak. In other words, yes you could have six WG Troop units, but no, no WG as Elites whatsoever. I've discussed this with several people, and got a different answer each time – but seems to me this is how it should work.

 

Unlike the DA Codex where for example, Deathwing Terminator Squads "[...] may be treated as a Troops choice as well as an Elites choice" it mkes it quite clear you can field units in both types of slot.

 

There is no such choice with Logan's The Great Wolf rule.

 

Cheers

I

[JamesI]

For discussion purposes, let's remind ourselves of the wording:

 

"Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar."

 

Must admit the wording isn't as clear as it could be IMHO. [by the way the DA Codex is much clearer on this unit swap thing I think.]

 

That aside, and to help answer the OPs other question, if WG units "count as Troops" with Logan around that statement seems to me it's not an optional choice and is always therefore switched on so to speak. In other words, yes you could have six WG Troop units, but no, no WG as Elites whatsoever. I've discussed this with several people, and got a different answer each time – but seems to me this is how it should work.

 

Unlike the DA Codex where for example, Deathwing Terminator Squads "[...] may be treated as a Troops choice as well as an Elites choice" it mkes it quite clear you can field units in both types of slot.

 

There is no such choice with Logan's The Great Wolf rule.

 

Cheers

I

I agree with Isiah. But how often would that distinction matter anyway?

[Custodian Athiair]

ok but do be aware of the fact with Canis Wolfborn it says he can take Fenrisian Wolves as troops

but in there unit information it says they cannot hold objectives so the point about it means they can hold objectives by you buy them as troops is null and void becuase it uses the same frasing as Wolfborn so something doesn't add up

 

Athiair :D

[Isiah]

Well indeed yes Fenrisian Wolves can't claim objectives – so just hope for Kill Point games – or that they can kill off all your opponents scoring units in quick time ;).

 

Cheers

I

[Isiah]

I agree with Isiah. But how often would that distinction matter anyway?

 

Well it might be if a SW player pitches up with 9 units of WG and expects to use them all at once in any normal FOC game. Rare maybe <_<.

[JamesI]

I agree with Isiah. But how often would that distinction matter anyway?

 

Well it might be if a SW player pitches up with 9 units of WG and expects to use them all at once in any normal FOC game. Rare maybe <_<.

At that many points, we're playing Apoc most likely, so its all good.

[Ramora]

The reason I asked is because I wanted to take logan but still take WG as elites and GH as troops. I wanted him for extra attacks not to make WG troops

 

cheers,

 

Ramo

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

You have 6 troop slots: if you can fill all of them with PAGK and WG, I'll be impressed.

[Frosty the Pyro]

To be honest it is probably intended to let wolfguard be both elite and troops slots, and be elite or troop based on what slot you take them in, regardless of how it is written, and I would not begrudge somone who built their list as such.

 

But here is a quick question for everyone who imidiately said counts as troops ment are troops in every way. How many of you think the guantlet of the forge doesnt benifit from twinlinking.