IST advice

[Tom James]

I'm looking at adding a few units of ISTs to my army, now that I've played a few small point games with just Grey Knights (first games since '97). The game mechanic has changed tremendously since I played with any regularity. I was wondering if I could get some advice on what you would do in my situation. Rhinos and more ISTs, or Chimeras and fewer troops.

 

I could take a rhino with extra armor and 8 ISTs, giving them two meltaguns (or one melta, one plasma) for 155 pts, or a Chimera with HF, hull HB and 5 ISTs with two meltas for the same points. Which would you do? I'm looking to run two or three identical units.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[jakehunter52]

I could take a rhino with extra armor and 8 ISTs, giving them two meltaguns (or one melta, one plasma) for 155 pts, or a Chimera with HF, hull HB and 5 ISTs with two meltas for the same points. Which would you do? I'm looking to run two or three identical units.

Neither. Ideally, ISTs are used in groups of 5 with 2 meltas in rhinos. Makes for a great tank busting unit that is dirt cheap and completely aggravating to your opponent. The only reason you would want to take more is to have a stronger firebase that can stay out of assault range, which means taking plasma. But inorder to have an effective volley, you probably want to take a full 10 but at 1-pts a piece, it gets expensive for doing a whole lot of dittly. Chimeras are cool because they can add good long range support where DH and WH don't have any. And they do this well with AV 12 front and two hvy weapons w/ 36" range. Granted, IG get a better deal but once again, purpose of this vehicle is to fill gaps. It is not a smart idea to be hauling guys w/ meltas in it for three reasons: 1) Access points. When it comes down to piling out and you only have one door to choose from rather than 3 and a larger frame to deal with, can make thing very tactically difficult to get within that 6". 2) Is av 10 on sides and back. In order to get the ISTs there, you WILL expose your side and back armour and then your chimera will die. Because bolters can kill it. And they will. And it will have been a total waste when you could of had a rhino do the same thing but multiple times during the battle rather than the first turn. 3) If you are hauling stuff around, then you'll be too busy to fire. You paid for two hvy weapons, so use them! Rhinos only have storm bolters so who cares but when you give up a multi-laser (which you should ALWAYS BE TAKING) and a HB, that is really hurting. If you are playing more mid-range like with SoB, then go with the rhino. If you are wanting some heavy firepower and in the rare chance needing a ride, then go for the Chimera and expect to footslog your ISTs.

[KaldCB]

I agree, storm troopers are best used as 5 men squads with 2 meltaguns in rhinos.

[Uncle Mel]

Yep, that's how i use them as well.

 

Mel

[Gibious]

Why 2 meltaguns? The Rhino only has one hatch. Wouldnt a Meltagun and then some long range like the grenade launcher be a fairer option?

 

-Gib-

[KaldCB]

The rhino only have one access point, but you will never get within melta range by driving 6" anyway. Drive 12" jump out 2"+ base size and melt stuff that is within 6" with two meltaguns. redundancy is the key, to have backup so you know that when you plan to shoot something it dies.

[BoonKin]

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

The Rhino also has 2 fire points, so the 2 ISTs can shoot their MG.

[avatar8481]

new SM rhino does, not sure about the IST/GK rhino.

 

I actually will have to vote for the Chimera, in a Multilaser, Hull HF config. The only weapons in the ISt squad that matter are the Meltas, and the Chimera has 2 fire points, so they never need to get out and you get a lot more flexibility (S6 weapon and a flamer template).

[Tom James]

IST rhino is spec'd out with one hatch.

 

Why the multilaser over the heavy bolter, avatar?

[Lord Asher]

Chimeras are overpriced, even before they teased us with their new cost in Codex: IG. The simple fact is the chimera carries anti-infantry weaponry, and DH excel at gunning down infantry. What they need is anti-tank, and melta-IST's in a Rhino is our best answer. As far as how many.....I'm still working on that magic number. I usually always go for at least one suicide squad of 5, but lately I've been bulking up other squads and using them to put pressure on objectives. I also have had decent success with a unit of 5 with Plasma (no Rhino) to babysit my home objective.

 

The best thing about buying a Chimera, is that your IST's can double as Melta-vets in an IG army, and you already own the Chimera.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The multi-laser is better IMO due to the higher strength.. it turns the Chimera into a light vehicle busting platform. Yes, the AP is worse (6 instead of 4) but how often are we REALLY worried about Fire Warriors or Eldar equivalents being instagibbed? The bigger difference is Strength 6 vs 5. 6 is useful :P

 

It is also important to note that if you can access IA2 in your group, the new update gives us the option of pintle mounted heavy stubbers which are a godsend. That gives your Chimera 3 weapons that reach out to 36", of strengths 4, 5 and 6. That's essentially an anti-infantry fire support platoon, only armored. Also in that same update it adds an Autocannon option instead of the multi-laser, which is swell. Even without the update, I've grown to the opinion that Rhinos are basically useless, and I always prefer a Chimera to a Rhino. It's a little tank that constantly surprises me with how durable it really is when used in a fire support role.

 

Also keep in mind that the Chimera can be equipped with one or two heavy flamers! It's essentially then an Immolator-lite that carries more people (including terminator armored equivalents!). Really nifty. The effectiveness per point spent is up to the individual, but I've never been upset that I had a Chimera on the table. The new update really really helps with the points value, but even if you can't use it, a Chimera is a sturdy little thing that grows on ya.

[avatar8481]

The best thing about buying a Chimera, is that your IST's can double as Melta-vets in an IG army, and you already own the Chimera.

 

This was not an insignificant part of the reason.

 

@Tom

 

Couple of reasons. One, I prefer the HF to the HB on the Hull because the restricted firing arc isn't nearly so problematic when you're driving forward anyway, and that's where the hordes will be. For the same Strength and AP I'd rather have the template in the front than 3 shots at BS3.

 

Multilaser over HF on the turret because, since I have the HF on the front I don't need another and I prefer the S6 shots over anything else, since in 5th most things will be getting PA or cover saves anyway.

 

@Lord Asher

 

The simple fact is the chimera carries anti-infantry weaponry, and DH excel at gunning down infantry. What they need is anti-tank, and melta-IST's in a Rhino is our best answer. As far as how many

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The fact that it'sISTs in the Chimera is sort of irrelevant since once they're outside they're dead (think of it as the Chimera just has more guns). The Chimera with Melta-IST is a very multi-purpose unit: If you don't move you get a flame template, 4 S6 shots and 2 meltaguns (at a separate target). If you move you still get the melta guns and can split fire with the flamer or the ML. You get anti-tank and anti infantry in the same tank, and because the anti-tank is from a squad you can split-fire and not loose any effectiveness, even at 6" movement. I find that's a very useful unit to have running around, because you can threaten anything and you're only about 160 points or so (I'd have to check, but chimera with HF is like 85, 5 IST is 50 and melta guns are another 10 maybe?)

 

If you put those same IST in a rhino you're not fundamentally more survivable, you get fewer melta-shots since you only have one hatch and you don't get any extra firepower from the tank. And in the DH codex you're only saving like 35 points between the two. It's not as though you can get an extra squad if you take rhinos, so I always take chimeras.

[Lord Asher]

If you put those same IST in a rhino you're not fundamentally more survivable, you get fewer melta-shots since you only have one hatch and you don't get any extra firepower from the tank. And in the DH codex you're only saving like 35 points between the two. It's not as though you can get an extra squad if you take rhinos, so I always take chimeras.

 

 

Ok, I'm willing to submit to different playstyles, but my transports are moving 12" a turn and popping smoke to get my Melta-vets in range ASAP, so the extra weaponry never gets to fire. Also when you get to where you're going, you often have to turn the Chimera around due to the rear ramp and the heavy flamer is moot and your exposing the rear armour. With a Rhino, I can turn it on it's side, dump out the IST's and still present my AV11 to the enemy.

 

Also I run at least two Rhino IST squads and with the 70 points saved, (35 each Chimera), I do buy another squad of 5 IST's with Plasma to guard my home objective.

 

I think fundamentally, our tactics are different. My melta vets are just an anti-tank cruise missle with 1 goal, pop armor. You seem to utilize yours with a more swiss-army knife type approach. Different strokes for different folks.

[avatar8481]

I think fundamentally, our tactics are different. My melta vets are just an anti-tank cruise missle with 1 goal, pop armor. You seem to utilize yours with a more swiss-army knife type approach. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Agreed completely.

 

With a Rhino, I can turn it on it's side, dump out the IST's and still present my AV11 to the enemy.

 

I see what you're doing here, which is interesting, essentially using dual melta ISTs like mini Fire Dragon suicide squads in an Eldar list. They're just not as good at it, but unfortunately for us, about the best thing we have. I like the tactic generally, but given that in my DH list the ISTs are the only troops I'm not comfortable using them as a suicide unit (much like I'm not comfortable with the same tactic with Plague Marine Melta-squads in Chaos rhinos, essentially the same idea but better troops). Fire Dragons have the benefit of not being troops, and so, sacrificial without hampering your ability to win. If I was able to fit in other squads in my lists beyond the 'swiss-army knife' chimeras I'd definitely look at your tactics, which I think are sound.

 

My lists tend to be dual raider/GKT hammers with Inq Lord and IST/melta/chimeras to fill points (2 squads at 1500 and 1750, 4 at 2000). My tactics tend to require that the ISTs never get out of their transport unless it's wrecked. Heck, they'll sit in an immobilized transport if they can and they're not needed to grab an objective. I try to create a wall with raiders on the sides covering the AV 10 and chimeras in between (inq lord in the middle to provide mystic-cover to the whole arrangement) Drive forward, pop tanks for a turn or two, drop the GKTs like hammers when I can get multi-assaults or mop-up squads and dump flamer templates and ML fire until everything else is dead. The list suffers against Monolith necrons for not having anything over S8, but the meltaguns and MM are awesome for popping every other tank in the game.

[Sethis]

Are you allowed to use Imperial Armour 2? If you are, consider putting them in a Valkyrie instead. :P